New players get the shaft

[JackofShadows]

I'm a new player with a new city. I'm LIVING the issues on this thread.

I completely agree with what's already been said about Fellowships. I was lucky to get invited into one that doesn't mind that I CANNOT contribute at all. I cannot do the tournament or the spire yet. I can't even help my Fellowship with building their Wonders! (I'll also point out that the Petal event has quests for putting KP into Wonders, which keeps a new player from doing those quests).

My proposed tech tree revamp:
1. Get rid of the Neighborhood tech.
2. Get rid of the Fellowships tech.
3. Get rid of the Fellowship Adventures tech.
4. Move the MA tech to mid-chapter 2 after Expansion 3 and 4 have been unlocked.
5. Get rid of the Crafting tech entirely OR move it to right after Advanced Scouts in Chapter III.
6. Put Magical Inspirations where Crafting is now.
7. Make Secret Ancient Wonders the final tech of Chapter II.
8. Make Tournaments the final tech of Chapter III and the Spire the final tech of Chapter IV.
9. MOST IMPORTANT: revamp the story quests to reflect these changes.

This allows a new player to join a fellowship at the start, and take part in FAs. Then as they move into chapter III, they can start on Wonders. The Magic Academy becomes less problematic because you get it later, AND its features get unlocked earlier. As they start chapter IV, they can take part in tournaments, and as they start chapter V, they get the spire.

Events:
Block events from showing up for a player until they unlock chapter II. That gives them the first chapter to focus on building their cities and learning what they're doing.

Scale event quests by what chapter a city is in. A chapter II city could reasonably be asked to buy 3 KP - but not 20. And pay attention to the number of these "buy KP" types of quests as well. In short, don't ask your players to cripple themselves to complete events.

Story quests:
Reduce the residences / workshops requirements to advance the story quests. 12/6 should be sufficient, especially with the requirements to upgrade them.

Smooth the upgrade progression. For example, I have 2 armories at level 4 and now have a quest to have 3 at level 7. There hasn't been any indication prior to this that I would need another armory, nor do 3 upgrades. It's too much of a jump. Start with building a 3rd armory, then upgrade them to 5, and then to 7. That's just one example, but I'm sure there are others.

Other:
Make it possible to upgrade the Magic Academy to level 3 without spending diamonds. Every time I look at that diamond requirement, it annoys me. This is partially because the MA is so useless at this level.

Early in the game (chapter II), Wonky Walter gives you 12 Royal Restorations as a quest reward. There's no way to see them, because the icon that displays crafting materials (the one that looks like an alien face, but I'm told it's actually a tree) is greyed out. This is something that should be available the moment the player gets anything that would fall into that category (and it would be helpful if a popup came up to show the player where to find it as well).

 

[senate7]

You can have the player send a support ticket in and see if the Quest can be completed for them.

I'm gonna do that right now! Thank you so much

 

[Ascew]

I too am a new player, that would like to add my 2 cents worth. I have no opinions or recommendations, as I don't feel that I know enough about the game to make them, yet. I would like to share my experience and observations so far on this matter.

1-Joining a fellowship changed the game for me, I would have done some things differently had I known then, what I know now. The only reason I even know some of this, is my fellowship. Being able to join sooner would have been better for me.

2-I hate that I am in a fellowship and cannot do the fellowship adventures or the tournament or give my mates my excess knowledge points. Yes, I will be able to do those things in just a few days or a week, but it still drives me nuts now. Takes the wind out of the sails so to speak.

3-Before being in a fellowship, I did use the wholesaler once, great...learned it was always an option, a pricey one, but always there. Good to know. The Autumn Zodiac event forced me to use it again, and I was really unhappy as it meant almost a days worth of my production. This made me really grumpy. The second time I had to use it in the event, I was just annoyed. By then I had built up a decent supply of goods, and it didn't set me back like the first one did. (Some sort of scaling mechanism here might be good. Chapter 1-5 players do 1 trade, 6-10 do 2, 10+...)

4-The reason I am posting now, the Autumn Zodiac Event quest that requires making vision vapor. As a new (about 3 weeks / just finished chapter3) I have been staying on track with the event. I have been completing 2-4 quests a day, and currently have a score of 162, putting me solidly into the Top 20%. Some quests have certainly taken longer than others, but I am quite pleased with my progress, and thought I had a chance of finishing the 72 quests. Until vision vaper.....25 is a lot, the stuff I can make in Magic Academy gives 3-10 usually, and takes 1-5 crafting catalysts. Now along the way, I did get a few crafting catalysts, but I have used them to make stuff (didn't know better until I got into a fellowship where they told me how valuable they are, my bad?) Each one takes 15 hours to make, and I don't know how many I will need, to make stuff to get the vapor. I am guessing (not knowing much) 10 ish, which is 150 hours, which means I am done with the event. Not to mention how many relics I would have to give up, which I know I shouldn't do.

All that said, as frustrated as I am right now with being forced out of the event, I am enjoying the game a great deal.

 

[Dhurrin]

Hello,

Could you give us some examples of the game being more user-friendly (especially for the newest players) in the past that don't apply now? Just to get a clear picture of what you're describing.

Thank you for sharing your opinion!

- Having to unlock being able to join a FS. Joining a FS is a crucial part of the game and should be added to the first few techs in the tutorial to give at least a possibility to do so.

- Having to unlock (and use) the MA in chap 1. It basically has absolutely no use at that point. You can't craft anything because you don't have access to crafting tools, but you can't anyway since the crafting only gets unlocked in later chapters.
But you also can't cook a lot of spells because you don't have the relics to spare. At the same time your questline require it to be placed which takes up 1 expansion where space tends to be an issue already.

- Not being able to join the tourney until chapter 4. The nice thing about the tourneys for newer players is they can share in the rewards at the end even when they chip in just a little bit, but those rewards are now delayed when it really could help them speed along (and stay interested in the game) even if they were to do just a few provinces for a few rounds.

- Having 6 AWs unlock in chap 4 is (sorry but I have no other word for it) moronic. It means that you cannot even get runes for them before that by unlocking provinces, so basically you won't be able to put up any before somewhere halfway chapter 5, where as you could put up the GA or the Tome as early as partway into chap 3.

- And now that I'm at it; some basic kind of explanation for a new player on how the combat system works and which units are good against what would probably be nice. Not a big deal for any players with experience, but then again, that whole tutorial isn't either at that point. But for a new player it will help prevent losing troops needlessly when replenishing is hard and slow work.
Bringing the ability to produce heavy melee units a bit forward would help too, as new players are soon stuck with just being able to use light melee and light ranged makes things hard.
Especially if you are up against mistwalkers in the 3rd province already which tend to decimate your few troops before you even can make a move. I'd definitely prefer those pests to be a bit further out.

(Edit)
Just for this thread I made a new city. The first hour or so one can make some progress. After that it becomes a long waiting game for pretty slow progress, unless one has the time to sit around and reset the workshops every 5 minutes. I don't know a lot of people who can do so.
So this new city is stuck about 2/3 through chap 1 for now and will slowly progress from there. And no ability to get help from teammates, as you can't join a FS yet.
Knowing things will get better makes a difference, but a new player has almost no chance of knowing that.

 

[Dhurrin]

You can have the player send a support ticket in and see if the Quest can be completed for them.

Though that option is appreciated, it is just absurd one has to do it that way. Even more so if that option is not mentioned anywhere in the event itself, so a player needs to learn that from the forum or teammates.

No event should ever have quests that cannot be completed by any player with some reasonable effort. Requesting things that some players just do not have makes no sense at all. Such quests should be scaled, requiring different items/amounts depending on the chapter a player is in, just as the amount of goods, coins or supplies varies between chapters.

 

[Astram]

Though that option is appreciated, it is just absurd one has to do it that way. Even more so if that option is not mentioned anywhere in the event itself, so a player needs to learn that from the forum or teammates.

No event should ever have quests that cannot be completed by any player with some reasonable effort. Requesting things that some players just do not have makes no sense at all. Such quests should be scaled, requiring different items/amounts depending on the chapter a player is in, just as the amount of goods, coins or supplies varies between chapters.

While I completely agree, that they should not be required to do something that is not possible, and yes the game does not tell them that there is an option, I would be remiss if I didn't offer that option on here when I see this happening. Also just by asking these questions, we are getting very good feedback to be delivered.

 

[BrinDarby]

However, if you play like your hair is on fire and you speed through early chapters as fast as you can....

This assumes you've played before, pretty much.....

Any gains that were made over the last 2 years for newer players,
was completely erased with the new tech tree. Under the current
conditions I wouldda never stuck around. ( and forced migration )

You suck a newbie in far enough, fast enuff..... so they can't live
without keeping playing, then you can add a few roadblocks in.
New player aquisition costs, with a well saturated game in the
market, must be factored into the overall revenue stream track.

 

[Alram]

I'm a new player with a new city. I'm LIVING the issues on this thread.

I completely agree with what's already been said about Fellowships. I was lucky to get invited into one that doesn't mind that I CANNOT contribute at all. I cannot do the tournament or the spire yet. I can't even help my Fellowship with building their Wonders! (I'll also point out that the Petal event has quests for putting KP into Wonders, which keeps a new player from doing those quests).

My proposed tech tree revamp:
1. Get rid of the Neighborhood tech.
2. Get rid of the Fellowships tech.
3. Get rid of the Fellowship Adventures tech.
4. Move the MA tech to mid-chapter 2 after Expansion 3 and 4 have been unlocked.
5. Get rid of the Crafting tech entirely OR move it to right after Advanced Scouts in Chapter III.
6. Put Magical Inspirations where Crafting is now.
7. Make Secret Ancient Wonders the final tech of Chapter II.
8. Make Tournaments the final tech of Chapter III and the Spire the final tech of Chapter IV.
9. MOST IMPORTANT: revamp the story quests to reflect these changes.

This allows a new player to join a fellowship at the start, and take part in FAs. Then as they move into chapter III, they can start on Wonders. The Magic Academy becomes less problematic because you get it later, AND its features get unlocked earlier. As they start chapter IV, they can take part in tournaments, and as they start chapter V, they get the spire.

Events:
Block events from showing up for a player until they unlock chapter II. That gives them the first chapter to focus on building their cities and learning what they're doing.

Scale event quests by what chapter a city is in. A chapter II city could reasonably be asked to buy 3 KP - but not 20. And pay attention to the number of these "buy KP" types of quests as well. In short, don't ask your players to cripple themselves to complete events.

Story quests:
Reduce the residences / workshops requirements to advance the story quests. 12/6 should be sufficient, especially with the requirements to upgrade them.

Smooth the upgrade progression. For example, I have 2 armories at level 4 and now have a quest to have 3 at level 7. There hasn't been any indication prior to this that I would need another armory, nor do 3 upgrades. It's too much of a jump. Start with building a 3rd armory, then upgrade them to 5, and then to 7. That's just one example, but I'm sure there are others.

Other:
Make it possible to upgrade the Magic Academy to level 3 without spending diamonds. Every time I look at that diamond requirement, it annoys me. This is partially because the MA is so useless at this level.

Early in the game (chapter II), Wonky Walter gives you 12 Royal Restorations as a quest reward. There's no way to see them, because the icon that displays crafting materials (the one that looks like an alien face, but I'm told it's actually a tree) is greyed out. This is something that should be available the moment the player gets anything that would fall into that category (and it would be helpful if a popup came up to show the player where to find it as well).

You don't sound like a new player to me. Odd.

 

[Darielle]

I'm a new player with a new city. I'm LIVING the issues on this thread.

I completely agree with what's already been said about Fellowships. I was lucky to get invited into one that doesn't mind that I CANNOT contribute at all. I cannot do the tournament or the spire yet. I can't even help my Fellowship with building their Wonders! (I'll also point out that the Petal event has quests for putting KP into Wonders, which keeps a new player from doing those quests).

My proposed tech tree revamp:
1. Get rid of the Neighborhood tech.
2. Get rid of the Fellowships tech.
3. Get rid of the Fellowship Adventures tech.
4. Move the MA tech to mid-chapter 2 after Expansion 3 and 4 have been unlocked.
5. Get rid of the Crafting tech entirely OR move it to right after Advanced Scouts in Chapter III.
6. Put Magical Inspirations where Crafting is now.
7. Make Secret Ancient Wonders the final tech of Chapter II.
8. Make Tournaments the final tech of Chapter III and the Spire the final tech of Chapter IV.
9. MOST IMPORTANT: revamp the story quests to reflect these changes.

This allows a new player to join a fellowship at the start, and take part in FAs. Then as they move into chapter III, they can start on Wonders. The Magic Academy becomes less problematic because you get it later, AND its features get unlocked earlier. As they start chapter IV, they can take part in tournaments, and as they start chapter V, they get the spire.

Events:
Block events from showing up for a player until they unlock chapter II. That gives them the first chapter to focus on building their cities and learning what they're doing.

Scale event quests by what chapter a city is in. A chapter II city could reasonably be asked to buy 3 KP - but not 20. And pay attention to the number of these "buy KP" types of quests as well. In short, don't ask your players to cripple themselves to complete events.

Story quests:
Reduce the residences / workshops requirements to advance the story quests. 12/6 should be sufficient, especially with the requirements to upgrade them.

Smooth the upgrade progression. For example, I have 2 armories at level 4 and now have a quest to have 3 at level 7. There hasn't been any indication prior to this that I would need another armory, nor do 3 upgrades. It's too much of a jump. Start with building a 3rd armory, then upgrade them to 5, and then to 7. That's just one example, but I'm sure there are others.

Other:
Make it possible to upgrade the Magic Academy to level 3 without spending diamonds. Every time I look at that diamond requirement, it annoys me. This is partially because the MA is so useless at this level.

Early in the game (chapter II), Wonky Walter gives you 12 Royal Restorations as a quest reward. There's no way to see them, because the icon that displays crafting materials (the one that looks like an alien face, but I'm told it's actually a tree) is greyed out. This is something that should be available the moment the player gets anything that would fall into that category (and it would be helpful if a popup came up to show the player where to find it as well).

In other words, go back to the way it used to be, for the most part. I agree.

 

[Iyapo]

This assumes you've played before, pretty much.....

In what way?

The old tree it took a month and 5 days to hit chapter 4.
The new tree it takes 13 days to hit chapter 4.

Doing it this quickly assumes experience or research but the reduced KP requirements have nothing to do with experience. Even a casual player who is completely new to the game will move through the early chapters faster under the new tree than they would under the old tree.

 

[JackofShadows]

In what way?

New players are not going to ignore everything but the tech tree. That's not what the game teaches them to do. On the contrary, the game teaches the new player to focus primarily on completing quests. And that includes event quests, because a new player isn't going to necessarily understand the difference (and has no Fellowship to ask).

 

[Iyapo]

New players are not going to ignore everything but the tech tree. That's not what the game teaches them to do.

New players do not have a single thing to spend KP on except the tech tree until chapter 4.

 

[Lelanya]

By the way
Today's daily would fit nicely in a small city.

 

[Dhurrin]

New players are not going to ignore everything but the tech tree. That's not what the game teaches them to do. On the contrary, the game teaches the new player to focus primarily on completing quests. And that includes event quests, because a new player isn't going to necessarily understand the difference (and has no Fellowship to ask).

Not quite true. I just started a new city, to experience the new set-up for myself and carefully followed the tutorial quests and now working on the quests given after that.
The game does make one follow quests, but it sure as heck pushes players to scout constantly as it is the only way to get KPs. They can't join a FS, they don't have any AWs, nor can they donate to them, they don't have access to the Tourney, they can't craft.
So the ONLY thing they have to spend KPs on is the techtree and the ONLY way to get KPs apart from the 1-per-hour ones which don't really help a lot in making progress is scouting and completing provinces.
At the same time, collecting coins and supplies is extremely hard, which seriously limits new players. Not having a FS means a LOT less NH too.

If I didn't know the game and knew what was ahead, I doubt I would have kept going after the first hour, when everything just grinds to a halt.

 

[Yavimaya]

I too am a new player, that would like to add my 2 cents worth. I have no opinions or recommendations, as I don't feel that I know enough about the game to make them, yet. I would like to share my experience and observations so far on this matter.

1-Joining a fellowship changed the game for me, I would have done some things differently had I known then, what I know now. The only reason I even know some of this, is my fellowship. Being able to join sooner would have been better for me.

2-I hate that I am in a fellowship and cannot do the fellowship adventures or the tournament or give my mates my excess knowledge points. Yes, I will be able to do those things in just a few days or a week, but it still drives me nuts now. Takes the wind out of the sails so to speak.

3-Before being in a fellowship, I did use the wholesaler once, great...learned it was always an option, a pricey one, but always there. Good to know. The Autumn Zodiac event forced me to use it again, and I was really unhappy as it meant almost a days worth of my production. This made me really grumpy. The second time I had to use it in the event, I was just annoyed. By then I had built up a decent supply of goods, and it didn't set me back like the first one did. (Some sort of scaling mechanism here might be good. Chapter 1-5 players do 1 trade, 6-10 do 2, 10+...)

4-The reason I am posting now, the Autumn Zodiac Event quest that requires making vision vapor. As a new (about 3 weeks / just finished chapter3) I have been staying on track with the event. I have been completing 2-4 quests a day, and currently have a score of 162, putting me solidly into the Top 20%. Some quests have certainly taken longer than others, but I am quite pleased with my progress, and thought I had a chance of finishing the 72 quests. Until vision vaper.....25 is a lot, the stuff I can make in Magic Academy gives 3-10 usually, and takes 1-5 crafting catalysts. Now along the way, I did get a few crafting catalysts, but I have used them to make stuff (didn't know better until I got into a fellowship where they told me how valuable they are, my bad?) Each one takes 15 hours to make, and I don't know how many I will need, to make stuff to get the vapor. I am guessing (not knowing much) 10 ish, which is 150 hours, which means I am done with the event. Not to mention how many relics I would have to give up, which I know I shouldn't do.

All that said, as frustrated as I am right now with being forced out of the event, I am enjoying the game a great deal.

On your number 3, just wait until you unlock the Ancient Wonder Blooming Trader! As you level it up less expensive to buy and on top of that as you grow you will start to get excess coins everyday and supplies etc. to use in there multiple times a day. Don't worry on 3 if you get that and level it.

 

[Ascew]

On your number 3, just wait until you unlock the Ancient Wonder Blooming Trader! As you level it up less expensive to buy and on top of that as you grow you will start to get excess coins everyday and supplies etc. to use in there multiple times a day. Don't worry on 3 if you get that and level it.

Thanks for the heads up. I opened the first AW tech, need 2 more runes for the Golden Abyss. I will be glad for the gold, so looking forward to that.

 

[crackie]

If I didn't know the game and knew what was ahead, I doubt I would have kept going after the first hour, when everything just grinds to a halt.

Even though they have at least added warning message dialogue boxes about building non-boosted goods, this is probably the reason why you still see a lot of new cities with highly upgraded non-boosted factories. With tourney delayed to chap4, there isn’t much in the way of relics to supercharge your boosted goods outside of map provinces. The difference between boosted production and non-boosted is nominal without relics so it would seem faster to make your own non-boosted. That leads them down the wrong path from the start.

Not quite true. I just started a new city, to experience the new set-up for myself and carefully followed the tutorial quests and now working on the quests given after that.
The game does make one follow quests, but it sure as heck pushes players to scout constantly as it is the only way to get KPs. They can't join a FS, they don't have any AWs, nor can they donate to them, they don't have access to the Tourney, they can't craft.

I found as a veteran player trying out a new city, I actually ignored a lot of the quest line and in some cases, stopped questing altogether and advanced to the next chapter in order to decline them and not play as they suggested. Mostly, I felt they want me to add things before I needed them. Obviously, new players wouldn’t know that option exists. It’s hard to un-know something you’ve already learned so veteran bias is gonna slant the view of early game. That’s why I also chose to play Jane Goodall and embed myself with newbies to observe what they actually do if left to their own devices.

 

[Mighty Peach]

That’s why I also chose to play Jane Goodall and embed myself with newbies...

Isn't that dangerous. What if they mistake your fingers for tiny bananas and bite.

 

[crackie]

Isn't that dangerous. What if they mistake your fingers for tiny bananas and bite.

I've already done Orc chapter a few times. I ain't afraid of no flinging poo. Besides, bananas are good source of potassium.

 

[Dhurrin]

Even though they have at least added warning message dialogue boxes about building non-boosted goods, this is probably the reason why you still see a lot of new cities with highly upgraded non-boosted factories. With tourney delayed to chap4, there isn’t much in the way of relics to supercharge your boosted goods outside of map provinces. The difference between boosted production and non-boosted is nominal without relics so it would seem faster to make your own non-boosted. That leads them down the wrong path from the start.

I found as a veteran player trying out a new city, I actually ignored a lot of the quest line and in some cases, stopped questing altogether and advanced to the next chapter in order to decline them and not play as they suggested. Mostly, I felt they want me to add things before I needed them. Obviously, new players wouldn’t know that option exists. It’s hard to un-know something you’ve already learned so veteran bias is gonna slant the view of early game. That’s why I also chose to play Jane Goodall and embed myself with newbies to observe what they actually do if left to their own devices.

That was the point for me to try. I have started test-cities before. I know the game, so I basically ignore the tutorial thingies after the first few.
But for a new player that would not make a lot of sense. And without being able to join a FS right away you basically have to follow the quests because especially supplies are hard to come by otherwise, with very limited NH, little space, small workshops and upgrades that require quite a lot of supplies actually..even more so because there is a very, very limited ability of getting a good culture bonus. Very little space and very little choice in the way of cultural buildings.