News from Beta - May Contain Spoilers!

[Enevhar Aldarion]

I actually do plan on dumping my Tome of Secrets, which is only level 6 or 7, once I can delete all the chapter 16 buildings and rearrange my city and put out some newer and better seed-producing buildings. I don't know which other ones I might dump, maybe none at all. And once I do the research and unlock it, I may or may not build the AW that gives the free Drone Riders. That will likely replace the Tome, so I won't really lose any AW levels overall.

Just the way @Risen Malchiah and others have talked about it, I wonder how many high rank players will do the same with their AWs. I am in the top 300 on Arendyll, so who knows where I will rank after whenever this makes it to the Live servers.

 

[DeletedUser9601]

Stat nerds fight! Woo

 

[DeletedUser19458]

Here I am. Deleted Endless Excavation (it outlived its usefulness anyway) and opted not to build Blooming Trader, Sunset Towers or Vortex of Storage because they offer no real benefits to the Spire. I'm debating dropping Pyramid so I've stopped leveling it. If the tournament is also impacted by AW levels, then I would purge others as well. Just have to do the math to see which ones help more than they hurt, which is such a lame thing we shouldn't have to do.

I am with you too. I am already encountering a hard time lately with the Spire - if they translate that to tourney too I have a couple that will go (trade center, possibly mountain halls, victory springs) and every other one I'll have to asses if they are worth having anymore. I also primarily do tournies to get KP for my AW's so it becomes a catch-22 of what is the point of doing tournaments if it only makes tournaments harder? e.g. you barely see the affects of monastery increasing one level. Now that affect will become even less noticeable (assuming Inno even calculates it correctly - increase enemy "difficulty" less than my troop health)

I won't be using diamonds for land anymore. I always want more land to make life easier, but I can get buy on what I have, being in chapter 16.

All assuming I stay around ... pretty frustrated with what I'm hearing. Inno seems to mostly use Beta as a preview to changes and not a testing ground to changes, so not optimistic feedback will be considered prior to implementation.

 

[OnlyElves]

.... It does not matter what is the reason for higher/lower losses, only that distribution stays the same. If you do 100 encounters with 1x SS and you do 25 encounters with 4x SS all average expected values stay the same, as long as matchups+terrain distribution is the same. Yes, this includes blowout losses as long as their probability of occurrence stays the same (which would be the case if matchups+terrain distribution is the same).

I'm not sure that's entirely true, at least in the details. No probability distribution is defined solely by the average: at least a standard deviation is also required. As MinMax Gamer pointed out elsewhere, with 1/4 as many encounters the variance will be higher. Some weeks you will get slammed and quit early. Some weeks you will have an easy ride and may choose to continue further. Since the difficulty ramps up as you proceed through the provinces and the random battle "difficulty distribution" (whatever that means) might not be symmetric these the "go long" and "stop short" weeks probably won't exactly cancel out. I have neither the data nor the statistical skills to figure out if it matters much. Ultimately everything will be dominated by how much easier InnoGames makes the initial provinces and how quickly the difficulty increases.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

If you're playing on Beta and planning to collect tournament data, please check out my post there:

https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/tournament-squad-size-calc-we-need-your-data.15202/

There is a preliminary data collection template that you may find useful.

 

[juniperknome]

Does any of this address the fact that as a new player I'm completely confused on how to target train troops. In my city is says SS is lets say 69.. but its different in Spire, provinces, and tournament..... currently the only place I can fight is tournaments cause the SS is small enough that 1 bad encounter doesn't take 50% of my troops that takes weeks and weeks......

I see so many dead new accounts in my local map its dumb..... new players start trying, and pushing to get to a usable point in the game, only to find EVERY fight "very hard". They realize as I have, my only way out is to sit on my butt for 3-4 months... usually they just quit or go inactive.. It sounds like this change makes tournaments 1/4 of the active fights I then can do.... I need more fights to get better at them, not less fights so I'm even longer SOL in the game. I cannot fight in Spire or reg encounters, if Tourns are then nerf'd so I get much less fights, I have less chance to learn and get better.

to a new player if in my Barracks it says SS is 69, then thats wht my SS should be in Tourn, encounters and Spire..... othewise I have no chance to target train troops, or know when I can stop training cause I have enuff troops.......

Does Innogames want participation ? If so then many aspects have to be accessable to newer players as they are the best source of new revenue to the game. even something as simple as trading is pointless for a new player....... when all the offers are 1000 this 3000 that 25000 something else..... the CH 1-4 players can't and don't need those offers and have such a limited trading area for local neighbors, many just quit cause they never can trade to progress...

I hope any Tournament changestake into account what exactly newer players are up against, if the focus is helping newer players in enjoyment and ease of participation...if you nerf Tourns so that its pointless for me...... then nowhere on the game will I be able to EVER fight unless I just research nothing, play nothing, fight nothing.... for the next 4 months waiting for the game to balance itself out between where I am and what research I have done.....
BrinD

all of us start new at some time you just have to pick and choose what to fight and cater don;t expect to go to the top tier soon . my tournies went something like this first full round through marble-gems 60 pints was good round two 500 points was possible then 3rd 500-1000 .By the next round through marble to gems ,i was looking for a ten chest alliance so just hang in there is gets better with time

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

I personally look forward to the Great AW Purge of 2020 and all the ranking points that people will be willing to sacrifice to the gods of the tournament. It will be interesting to see how many ranks I jump after this goes live. lol

I am doubtful it will happen. AW levels have been a part of Spire equation from the beginning, and known for quite a while, and I am yet to see anyone actually deleting any AWs to make Spire easier. Even some janky AWs are still out there. Not to mention L30+ AWs with questionable benefits.

I still keep my low-level EE, ToS etc, even though I realistically don't derive a whole lot of benefits from those at this point. But removing AWs is easy and can be done at any point, but rebuilding them back for whatever reason is expensive. So I personally am not going to drop existing AWs because things change, they can become useful again etc. I'll just eat this relatively small (for me) penalty.

Why would you remove them, One of the key points of the tournament is 3fold.

• To aquire KP for research
• To aquire KP for your wonders
• For some to aquire ranking points

Wonders are also important for seed production.

Is it not counter productive to the above statements to destroy your wonders you worked hard for?

• KP for research still exists
• KP for wonders? which wonders? the ones we just destroyed?
• Ranking points? why I need to remove 500K ranking points to aquire 1000 max?

It just does not make sense to destroy them, you have to play the tournaments for something other than just the love for playing them.

 

[mikeledo]

If there is a randomness in opponents that would make mage and enlighten range enhancers about 80% useless.

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

You can always throw 10-15 elightened range at a tournament, then it doesnt matter at all who the enemy is

 

[SoulsSilhouette]

Making the ASSUMPTION that the rewards will be worth the loss. That remains to be seen. If they continue to give the CURRENT rewards, I can think of no reason beyond the relics to play. Rune pieces are useless to me. The spell are okay, especially during the FA, and the KP's are always good, EXCEPT that now it seems that putting them into a military AW will be a penalty.

They are making this 'easier' for new players. The incentive is removed to push for the military AW's and to improve the military aspects of your city as well as your goods production.

Nerfs always hurt established players. ALWAYS. This is also a complete AW nerf.

So why not just get rid of the AW's altogether since they are going to hurt you if you are an established player. I fail to see WHY NON_MILITARY AW's levels should be a part of the fight calculation.

Why not just nuke all the AW's and make them relics of the past and not have them at all. After all, they are stripping the value from them.

 

[Ashrem]

I fail to see WHY NON_MILITARY AW's levels should be a part of the fight calculation.

I agree this doesn't make sense unless their effect is pretty small, but to be fair, there's no such thing as a non military AW (Except maybe Thrones, which kind of a stupid AW anyway). Even if all an AW does is boost your culture it gives you more coin and supplies. Most of them either give direct AW boosts, or indirect boosts, via extra goods, extra supplies, extra coins, extra population. All of those things allow you to operate with less space in your city devoted to certain other buildings, which allows you to put more space into either producing troops or producing goods. I can't think of a single AW that doesn't help your ability to do tournaments (again, other than the Thrones.....)

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

I agree this doesn't make sense unless their effect is pretty small, but to be fair, there's no such thing as a non military AW (Except maybe Thrones, which kind of a stupid AW anyway). Even if all an AW does is boost your culture it gives you more coin and supplies. Most of them either give direct AW boosts, or indirect boosts, via extra goods, extra supplies, extra coins, extra population. All of those things allow you to operate with less space in your city devoted to certain other buildings, which allows you to put more space into either producing troops or producing goods. I can't think of a single AW that doesn't help your ability to do tournaments (again, other than the Thrones.....)

Spire Library it a wonder that adds nothing related to either negotiations nor military strength

 

[Ashrem]

Spire Library it a wonder that adds nothing related to either negotiations nor military strength

Okay, that does look pretty useless. I haven't looked at the Chapter sixteen wonders before. Though even there, if you need KP or broken shards.......
I guess the point is that for the most part, if a wonder is worth having, then it's helping our city, and it's probably helping us do something else (or let's face it, we wouldn't have it).

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

Okay, that does look pretty useless. I haven't looked at the Chapter sixteen wonders before. Though even there, if you need KP or broken shards.......
I guess the point is that for the most part, if a wonder is worth having, then it's helping our city, and it's probably helping us do something else (or let's face it, we wouldn't have it).

Ranking points?
Thats the only reason to build it?

But now building it will be discouraged as it counts toward tourney difficulty?

 

[DeletedUser21570]

@Xelenia -
I don't have a beta account. I don't have the time to do it so I probably never will. As a result, I can't reply on the beta thread regarding tourney changes.

I will preface by saying change can be hard for me. However, I am open to these changes. My concern is about the rewards I get from the tourney and what could be a significant hit to that. I also apologize that this post will be long. Below is a comment from @Marindor on the beta forum.

I think it all depends on the definition of rewards - if you are comparing tournament points maybe. The best individual rewards are currently in provinces 10+ which are being made significantly more difficult starting with even round 1. Here is a comparison on rewards. The first will be what I typically do now in tourney - go rounds 1 and 2 as many provinces as I have. The second will be what it appears from feedback in Beta and based on Marindor's own suggestion will happen post changes.

Current - Rounds 1 and 2 as far as I can (this week that is all 45 provinces available to me) - I will use 1 pet food and get both rounds. I also only have to find time to do the tourney on 2 days. I will receive:
2970 points
327 relics
198 KP
2 runes
4 broken shards
39 POP enchantments
3 culture enchantments

Proposed - Rounds 1-6 through province 10 (assuming I can get up early or stay up late one day since I don't have timewarp or polar bear) - I will use 3 pet food to get all 6 rounds. I also have to play all 5 days of the tourney and on one of those days find time to play 16 hrs apart or use time instants which I don't use at all now. I will receive:
2700 points
180 relics
80 KP
11 runes
10 broken shards
7 POP spells
7 culture spells
6 MM spells

To put it another way in the new format to get the same amount of KP I acquire today I will need to go all 6 rounds in 20 provinces. It will also result in a score of 5670 - something I currently only do on tournaments where I am in dire need of relics. I'm hoping that will be possible for me on a weekly basis. Or I can get a lot more patient and wait to upgrade AW.

These were done using the results from the tournament calculator. Unless the prizes awarded in the lower province rounds are modified, the statement about being more rewarding going more rounds in fewer provinces is blatantly false for any player who values rewards other than runes and broken shards. I come out ahead on runes, broken shards, culture spells and MM spells. I take a significant hit on all of the rewards I really care about - relics, KP and POP spells. I can make the POP spells in the MA instead of the MM spells I currently do. However I gain 2 days of MA time for those and I will require 5+ days to make the POP spells I will be losing.

I am not against changing the tournament - I just hope the cost/benefit analysis for prizes doing more provinces but fewer rounds as compared to more rounds of fewer provinces is reviewed. I believe many players set up their strategy not only around getting points to help the FS get 10 chests but around what helps them out individually in their game the most. I think for many that is the KP they get in round 2 and for some the KP in round 5. But I have talked to far more players that follow a similar strategy to mine of round 1 and 2 as far as they can go.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

I have a small city on Beta, just entered chapter 4. After looking at my numbers there, and the numbers posted to the Beta forum, I have come to the conclusion that I will no longer be able to do the tournaments as I have been, if this goes into effect on Live without any changes from the Beta version. Right now, with my chapter 16 city, I complete 5 or 6 stars of the first 10 provinces and then I complete the first 2 stars of as many provinces as I can, usually out to at least province 40. We can do that with the current system because the enemy squad size stays at 90% of ours for the 1st star of all provinces and 100% for the 2nd star. With the new system, the 1st star of the 20th province will have enemy squad size almost 1.6 times our size, or what it is for the 6th star currently. I guess it is time to say goodbye to all that extra KP from the 2nd star of all those provinces that I will no longer be doing.

 

[The Unbeliever]

Hmmmmm... half a day and already 5+ pages on the beta forums about how Tournaments are basically dead to most average players now.
And just to prove that the Devs are complete morons who don't even play their own game, we have the absolute gem that is the ultimate junk punch to every single new player:
1. Player SS = 2 vs. Enemy SS = 1 for the 1st province in a brand new city.
2. Enemy gets Mages/HM + 1x HR units as their randumb line-up.
3. Player SS = 2 vs. actual Enemy SS = 4-6, because of course we can't have fractional units. (ie: 1 HR = 6 LI/LR)
4. Player gets hopelessly slaughtered because the single HR units can't be hurt at all by the player's LR units.

Way to go guys! Introduce new players to the joys of tournaments by slaughtering them in hopeless, impossible to even compete fights!
That'll be sure to encourage new players to stick around!

Oh, and to make matters even worse, this is the SECOND TIME they've made this same mistake!Lol!

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Hmmmmm... half a day and already 5+ pages on the beta forums about how Tournaments are basically dead to most average players now.
And just to prove that the Devs are complete morons who don't even play their own game, we have the absolute gem that is the ultimate junk punch to every single new player:
1. Player SS = 2 vs. Enemy SS = 1 for the 1st province in a brand new city.
2. Enemy gets Mages/HM + 1x HR units as their randumb line-up.
3. Player SS = 2 vs. actual Enemy SS = 4-6, because of course we can't have fractional units. (ie: 1 HR = 6 LI/LR)
4. Player gets hopelessly slaughtered because the single HR units can't be hurt at all by the player's LR units.

They did post that was a bug and is getting looked at, so that should not stay a problem.

And what do you consider an "average" player when it comes to tournaments? What is an average score? 1000? 2000? 3000? The 1670 that is just enough to help a 25-person fellowship get 10 chests?

The Beta announcement specifically calls out the 5000-point threshold, so I think they are more punishing the players who get tons of KP from the tournament, who also happen to get scores of 4000, 5000, 6000, etc while collecting all that KP. It seems to be just another way to slow players down, so that they do not speed so quickly through the newest chapters, but it will end up hurting a lot more players than just them.

 

[Pheryll]

It seems to be just another way to slow players down, so that they do not speed so quickly through the newest chapters, but it will end up hurting a lot more players than just them.

And when they finally get to releasing chapter 18 they will likely have to inject a large amount of KP just to make sure that there are enough players to trade the T7 goods.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

And when they finally get to releasing chapter 18 they will likely have to inject a large amount of KP just to make sure that there are enough players to trade the T7 goods.

So if they manage to stick to the roughly six months between new chapters, we will find out next April, maybe. I am curious what the next Trader upgrade in chapter 17 will add when we get that in about three more months.