SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
It does give T2+1 for all chapters... except chapter 3, no?
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Your Elvenar Team
News from Beta - May Contain Spoilers!
- Thread starter helya
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BrinDarby
Well-Known Member
NO , not for chapter 1,2,3 ...... that'd be like me changing Woodworks, Forge, & Smason
to seeds for CH 16,17,18 players and giving T1 to anyone under CH 16.....
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
But what would anyone in Chapter 1 do with T2 goods? You don't even unlock T2 until halfway through chapter 2 so I'm pretty sure there's nothing to spend them on before that
Henroo
Oh Wise One
Does he have Flying Academy and Victory Springs to speed up his Mercenary Camp and Training Grounds? If so, what level are they?
OIM20
Well-Known Member
I'm going to regret saying this, but: you can craft Traveling Merchants as soon as you get the MA, if they show up. The MA is one of the last researches in chapter 1. Conceivably, a chapter 1 player could obtain T2 and even T3 without ever unlocking the techs.
As for why one would wish to do this... In my first FS on Elcy, my AM was further ahead than everyone else in the FS and yet kept asking us for goods we couldn't produce. Most of my neighbors (if they were active at all) didn't cross-tier, and I didn't have anything to trade them that they'd want. So when those recipes came up, I crafted them and set them out - and until this FA, kept a couple of TM I, TM II, and TM III in that city. They are now gone.
But with those buildings, I was able to obtain small amounts of T2 and T3 goods. Enough to do small trades and get my AM at least some of the goods he kept asking for (which meant less whinging).
Enevhar Aldarion
Oh Wise One
I don't think anyone has pointed this out yet, but in the next event, instead of going from the 7th artifact to another base building, we now have an avatar in between as the prize for the 14th grand prize.
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
@OIM20
But how long between crafting a TM2 and unlocking T2? A few days? A week tops? Then you could just produce T2 in a factory taht is WAY more efficient than a TM2.
I'll concede that there is a tiny niche spot where a handful of players might benefit from producing T2 in the Moonset before unlocing T2 in the tech tree a few days later, but to claim that
"This change severely hurts new players"
is a bit of a stretch
But how long between crafting a TM2 and unlocking T2? A few days? A week tops? Then you could just produce T2 in a factory taht is WAY more efficient than a TM2.
I'll concede that there is a tiny niche spot where a handful of players might benefit from producing T2 in the Moonset before unlocing T2 in the tech tree a few days later, but to claim that
"This change severely hurts new players"
is a bit of a stretch
The Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
His 2 Human cities have the Flying Acad since Priests are god-tier, but his Elven cities skipped out on both AW's.
We've got IIRC, at least 6-8 dia expansions each in our cities, if not more, which is also of course hurting us both.
We're both actually looking at which AW's we can nuke in our cities in order to at least shove those levels into more critical AW's. (ie: I've suggested to my dad to nuke his Lv.12-16 Mt.Halls and use those levels to further boost his sanctuary/Monastery)
Elivarian
Member
They sure don't want us to win too much, unless we pay for it
Deleted User - 1178646
Guest
I think in general for most people the avatar will be worth more than the second baseThey sure don't want us to win too much, unless we pay for it
Kekune
Well-Known Member
I'm an elf, and a big tourney scorer, and I'd say both FA and VS are absolutely essential. Especially in late game; I rely a LOT on my specialist troops, especially in higher province numbers.
You specifically pointed this out as a problem he's having:
Personally, I can't really understand attributing tournament struggles at high levels entirely to the game structure when you've (he's) chosen to skip massive training speed improvements on 2 out of 3 of the military buildings. I'm not saying there's not a problem with the system, just that this doesn't seem like an example of it.
OIM20
Well-Known Member
Oh, I agree with you. I was just answering the bit about chapter 1 players producing T2 goods.
Edited to add:
You can only produce your non-boosted T2 in a TM II. So in Elcy I still couldn't produce silk with having a TM II and not having the T2 tech unlocked.
Last edited:
The Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
We don't use Light Melee much at all, so VS is kinda pointless since half it's worth would hardly ever see use. Coupled with the fact that the of the two specialist buildings, the Training Grounds is by far the weaker of the two.
The only troop we don't ever use much from the Merc Camp is the Bee rider, while the only troops we sometimes use from the training grounds are the Dryads & rarely the Ork Strats + Banshees.
So sinking levels into the VS is just needlessly pumping up the numbers in the tourny/spire.
His buildings are close to max level, and his full training stack in the Training Grounds is still only about 6-7hrs, meaning he's losing a bit of time overnight as the full stack finishes before we wake up in the morning. The other two buildings are naturally shorter times, so he's losing even more time overnight on his Barracks + Merc Camp...
So it more a case of he needs to bulk out his training stack vs. adding another AW to speed things along.
On rough week, he'll activate his Brown Bear & dump a bunch of 5hr instants to rebuild troops on the spot.
crackie
Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
Exactly what I mean by you have more access to toys late game, but whether one chooses to take advantage is a different story.
I rarely use light melee but that didn’t stop me from putting down a Bulwark, which is critical to keeping my army base levels and footprint efficiency or else I’d need like 10 armories. To dismiss Bulwark bc I don’t like half its worth would be shooting myself in the foot. I also dislike heavy melee, but caved and put down Heroes Forge. I’ve realized in the really high provinces when you can sometimes only afford to take 2 hits, you need every advantage to kill faster before they kill you. And when they do kill you, it’s a gigantic stack of troops lying dead.
Lastly, fear of upgrading wonders is severely overblown. It affects the formula by .3, which means you have 300 upgrades to play with before a jump in coefficient. That’s 10 wonders to level 30. If these wonders then also offset the .3 increase, which military wonders do, it’s worth building and upgrading.
The Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
We have Bulwark in all our cities because it's main use *IS* to massively boost the training stacks. They can honestly outright remove the Barbie/Sword Prancer production and it wouldn't make a difference in the Bulwark's overall power.
On the other hand, why sink resources & levels into an AW that boosts the single most useless troop type & boosts the worst of the three military buildings? If there's only 300 AW levels to spread out before you get 'formula nuked', you're going to want to put those very limited levels into more critical AW's.
As for end game having more toys to play with, so therefore it's not that much more difficult vs. early game...
Again, Elvenar has an artificial difficulty because it's just about sheer numbers vs. any kind of real tactical strategy or puzzle solving.
If we had a proper system, things would be very difficult/challenging at the beginning of a new chapter, and then slowly become easier as you complete the tech tree for each chapter, thereby rewarding progress vs. actively discouraging it!
The real kicker for him is the Spire, mainly because of the borked formula combo'd with the multi-wave fights which significantly increase losses due to the crappy battle system. (oh look, the terrain generator screwed you over yet again in the 2nd fight, enjoy your auto-loss!)
While the multi-wave fights were yet another FoE port, we simply don't have the same mechanics that make it work in Elvenar, namely;
1. Military boosts in FoE are insanely OP in the player's favor vs. Elvenar, where the mechanics instead seem designed to neuter any boosts a player has earned. (...or else you're simply outright required to have A/B/C to even compete at a basic level!)
2. Rogues exist
Those two factors make multi-wave fights doable, and even very winnable without taking any losses in certain game modes. While we don't need to make things are insanely OP as FoE has become, it would be nice to replace, "can you simply produce more than the game forces you to lose", with, "your tactics & strategies actually mean something again!"
On the other hand, why sink resources & levels into an AW that boosts the single most useless troop type & boosts the worst of the three military buildings? If there's only 300 AW levels to spread out before you get 'formula nuked', you're going to want to put those very limited levels into more critical AW's.
As for end game having more toys to play with, so therefore it's not that much more difficult vs. early game...
Again, Elvenar has an artificial difficulty because it's just about sheer numbers vs. any kind of real tactical strategy or puzzle solving.
If we had a proper system, things would be very difficult/challenging at the beginning of a new chapter, and then slowly become easier as you complete the tech tree for each chapter, thereby rewarding progress vs. actively discouraging it!
The real kicker for him is the Spire, mainly because of the borked formula combo'd with the multi-wave fights which significantly increase losses due to the crappy battle system. (oh look, the terrain generator screwed you over yet again in the 2nd fight, enjoy your auto-loss!)
While the multi-wave fights were yet another FoE port, we simply don't have the same mechanics that make it work in Elvenar, namely;
1. Military boosts in FoE are insanely OP in the player's favor vs. Elvenar, where the mechanics instead seem designed to neuter any boosts a player has earned. (...or else you're simply outright required to have A/B/C to even compete at a basic level!)
2. Rogues exist
Those two factors make multi-wave fights doable, and even very winnable without taking any losses in certain game modes. While we don't need to make things are insanely OP as FoE has become, it would be nice to replace, "can you simply produce more than the game forces you to lose", with, "your tactics & strategies actually mean something again!"
Guurt The Destroyer
Well-Known Member
This is the exact model of most pay to win games. Eventually there comes a point where progress without spending money is very much discouraged, or even impossible.
This seems very normal to me.
What is unusual here is that it is possible to play for so long without the need of spending money. I am actually surprised that the game doesn't require the spending of money at much earlier levels.
The Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
FoE which is by the same studio is entirely FtP, and you can easily build an OP city with 1000% and higher military bonuses for $0.00
Elvenar though can easily earn way more diamonds for free vs. the other one... (and setting up 'diamond farms' in FoE takes a helluva lot more time & effort vs. just setting up a few Ch.4-5 cities & getting to a silver/gold Spire fellowship)
Apparently Greekopolis or whatever it's called is the INNO 'pay $$$ to play beyond a certain point' game, or so I've been told.
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
No.
"Pay to progress" is the model for many F2P games you are describing, and I'd understand that.
"Make your city worse by progressing" is something else entirely.
If you progress beyond the start of chapter 16 (either for free or by spending diamonds) your city becomes objectively worse at doing the tournament & spire. That's what makes no sense since it doesn't increase revenues nor player retention. There's no upside to a system like this.
Guurt The Destroyer
Well-Known Member
There are plenty of games out there where progressing is actually a trap designed to force the user to spend money.
The game I came to before this was exactly that way. The biggest mistake a F2P could make was progressing. It isn't an uncommon design tactic for these sorts of games.
EDIT: I am not saying it is a good design tactic. I left the last game as the longer I played the more I was punished as F2P. Deliberately trying to frustrate your players to "encourage" them to spend money also has the side affect of frustrating your players which encourages them to quit.
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
Again though, this isn't that.
There's no spending your way past it. I mean I guess you could use diamonds to replace dead troops in battle, but I don't honestly believe anyone does that.
This issue affects Free players, low budget, spenders, and whales all equally.
It's not a cash grab, it's just garbage.
If there was a premium option to pay a monthly fee for your AW levels or # of expansions or # of techs to not count against you, then sure that would be a cash grab and make sense.
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