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    Your Elvenar Team

Penalizing Noncombatant Players

Being a trading city rather than military outpost is a conscious choice made years ago when I began playing Elvenar. The option to play this way is one of the things that drew me to the game. There were great videos that highlighted being able to play Elvenar without an army. My city is about to finish Chapter 20, my barracks is level 5 and there is 1 armory. In the technology tree I have skipped all optional squadron upgrades since they are not applicable.

The new Cauldron and Season of Dreams both significantly penalize noncombatant players.
Cauldron penalties: Research diplomas are awarded based on "fully completed" chapters. According to the Cauldron, I have ONE chapter completed. This makes the cauldron able to produce only coin or supply increases. My city already produces more coins and supplies than I can spend. I must go to the wholesaler to spend coins at least twice a week and to spend supplies at least once a day. Any additions to the Cauldron for putting KP into useless squadron upgrades would have to be significant to offset the loss of KP going into Ancient Wonder upgrades (and resulting loss of score growth).

Season of Dreams penalties: Military unit production quests do not have an option to "refresh" or be replaced with another quest. A level 5 barracks with 1 armory takes 5 DAYS to produce enough units to meet the requirements of a daily quest. It is mathematically not possible for my city to complete such a daily quest. My only option is to spend 120+ hours of time boosters. If military unit production quests had an option to refresh, this penalty would be removed.

New additions to the game are great improvements that keep the game lively and interesting. Replacing the old quest system is a fantastic upgrade. It would be wonderful if such improvements did not penalize players for choosing the path less traveled.
 

Glandeh

Active Member
Being a trading city rather than military outpost is a conscious choice made years ago when I began playing Elvenar. The option to play this way is one of the things that drew me to the game. There were great videos that highlighted being able to play Elvenar without an army. My city is about to finish Chapter 20, my barracks is level 5 and there is 1 armory. In the technology tree I have skipped all optional squadron upgrades since they are not applicable.

The new Cauldron and Season of Dreams both significantly penalize noncombatant players.
Cauldron penalties: Research diplomas are awarded based on "fully completed" chapters. According to the Cauldron, I have ONE chapter completed. This makes the cauldron able to produce only coin or supply increases. My city already produces more coins and supplies than I can spend. I must go to the wholesaler to spend coins at least twice a week and to spend supplies at least once a day. Any additions to the Cauldron for putting KP into useless squadron upgrades would have to be significant to offset the loss of KP going into Ancient Wonder upgrades (and resulting loss of score growth).

Season of Dreams penalties: Military unit production quests do not have an option to "refresh" or be replaced with another quest. A level 5 barracks with 1 armory takes 5 DAYS to produce enough units to meet the requirements of a daily quest. It is mathematically not possible for my city to complete such a daily quest. My only option is to spend 120+ hours of time boosters. If military unit production quests had an option to refresh, this penalty would be removed.

New additions to the game are great improvements that keep the game lively and interesting. Replacing the old quest system is a fantastic upgrade. It would be wonderful if such improvements did not penalize players for choosing the path less traveled.
The optional researches should not count for chapter completion imo (but for now, they do) If you at least were able to select which diploma to unlock, that would make a difference too.

For the seasons it would be nice if you could select a number of quests that would never appear in your list so you would be able to tune it a bit to your playstyle. reset once a month or costing a huge number of diamonds, just like the FS perks.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
Since you don't have to fight just because you do the squad size research, it's not penalizing you for being a noncombatant, it's just not rewarding you for being a non-combatant. Someone who fights, but likes to keep their city size lean so doesn't do optional city expansions faces the same results as those who don't do optional squad sizes.

If it gave you the same output as it gives someone else who did do those researches then it would be penalizing them, as they had to put extra KP and resources into completing those techs.
 

CrazyWizard

Oh Wise One
Being a trading city rather than military outpost is a conscious choice made years ago when I began playing Elvenar. The option to play this way is one of the things that drew me to the game. There were great videos that highlighted being able to play Elvenar without an army. My city is about to finish Chapter 20, my barracks is level 5 and there is 1 armory. In the technology tree I have skipped all optional squadron upgrades since they are not applicable.

The new Cauldron and Season of Dreams both significantly penalize noncombatant players.
Cauldron penalties: Research diplomas are awarded based on "fully completed" chapters. According to the Cauldron, I have ONE chapter completed. This makes the cauldron able to produce only coin or supply increases. My city already produces more coins and supplies than I can spend. I must go to the wholesaler to spend coins at least twice a week and to spend supplies at least once a day. Any additions to the Cauldron for putting KP into useless squadron upgrades would have to be significant to offset the loss of KP going into Ancient Wonder upgrades (and resulting loss of score growth).

Season of Dreams penalties: Military unit production quests do not have an option to "refresh" or be replaced with another quest. A level 5 barracks with 1 armory takes 5 DAYS to produce enough units to meet the requirements of a daily quest. It is mathematically not possible for my city to complete such a daily quest. My only option is to spend 120+ hours of time boosters. If military unit production quests had an option to refresh, this penalty would be removed.

New additions to the game are great improvements that keep the game lively and interesting. Replacing the old quest system is a fantastic upgrade. It would be wonderful if such improvements did not penalize players for choosing the path less traveled.
Being a "trader city" is a limitation you put on yourself, there are no combat cities or trader cities.
There are only city's

Should a "fighter city" complain about the produce xxx crap quests?
You would say he/she should be both.
 

Pheryll

Set Designer
The new Cauldron and Season of Dreams both significantly penalize noncombatant players.
Cauldron penalties: Research diplomas are awarded based on "fully completed" chapters. According to the Cauldron, I have ONE chapter completed. This makes the cauldron able to produce only coin or supply increases. My city already produces more coins and supplies than I can spend. I must go to the wholesaler to spend coins at least twice a week and to spend supplies at least once a day.

Is this really a penalty? If you have the blooming trader guild, the crystal lighthouse (or great bellspire), the lighthouse of good neighborhood, and the prosperity towers you could be banking a huge amount of goods from the wholesaler from your supplies. Just having one chapter complete nearly guarantees the supply buff each week.
 

Deleted User - 849411552

Guest
@MenolyDragonmist
I applaud your decision to choose the non-fighter path, and congratulations for reaching Chapter 20! You are quite right, Inno did advertise the game as allowing the freedom of choice between the fighter or non-fighter paths, or some hybrid thereof. Whether or not they have changed their advertising at this point is irrelevant.

I do think that Seasons needs some minor tweaking to allow for refreshing daily quests that are not practical. Another one of these annoying quests is the need to do one Spire quest to complete the daily. I have no intention of delaying my spire climbing just in case that quest comes up sometime later in the week. Yes, I know - I've made the choice and so I pay the penalty, but why would Seasons be designed in this unfriendly way?
(generally I find the game very generous and positive)

I can understand your concerns about the cauldron too. But as for the research tree and the cauldron, I personally don't have a problem with the current incentive to complete *all* available research in a chapter. Completing the squad upgrade research does not imply that I have to use it (just as completing nuclear research does not imply that you intend to build a bomb - no nuclear bombs in Canada but lots of nuclear power plants have been built).

I could be wrong on this, but don't the squad size upgrades affect the difficulty in scouting provinces, and therefore the difficulty in negotiating or fighting provincial encounters? If so, that would be another incentive to complete the squad upgrade research.

All the best!
David
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
@MenolyDragonmist , is right, along with another
poster a few days back that said basically now she
needs deticated shanties to do Seasons.

Many ppl only have 2-3 workshops ( usually magic )
and just sparkle them when need'd. A current task I
have (weekly) is (40) groceries..... with 2 workshops,
each one needs 20 x9hrs = 180 hrs/24 = 7.5 days,
and thats if you logg'd on exactly every 9 hrs for
a whole week.

Yet again another case, for a city building game
not to punish players for LAND. If I didn't get hosed
for the 16 expansions I could place + a few more,
I'd have all the room I'd need to have 2-3 expansions
worth of space, for a Seasons shantytown.
 
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Alram

Flippers just flip
I do think that Seasons needs some minor tweaking to allow for refreshing daily quests that are not practical. Another one of these annoying quests is the need to do one Spire quest to complete the daily. I have no intention of delaying my spire climbing just in case that quest comes up sometime later in the week. Yes, I know - I've made the choice and so I pay the penalty, but why would Seasons be designed in this unfriendly way?
(generally I find the game very generous and positive)
The season's event doesn't seem less friendly to me. It seems like more of the same.
Save your scouting until a quest, don't complete provinces until a quest, save your tourney/spire encounters for a quest, make this, make that, stand here...The only difference is that the quests are different for everyone and we don't have a handy list to follow.

@MenolyDragonmist
Wow! Those optional techs are almost 1500kp altogether. That's not a very nice thing to spring on you after years of play.
 

defiantoneks

Well-Known Member
Wow! Those optional techs are almost 1500kp altogether. That's not a very nice thing to spring on you after years of play.
but they took the advantage of investing those kp elsewhere, either to accelerate moving forward in chapter or into AW builds. nothing was really "sprung" its just the repercussion of that choice is now coming along.
 

Alram

Flippers just flip
I understand that they benefited from ignoring "optional" tech but if ignoring optional tech is going to break game features, perhaps it shouldn't be optional? I have catering cities too. I did all my research because I just could not stand to leave it unfinished. :)
Does anyone know if the new tech tree has optional tech?
 
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BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
but if ignoring optional tech is going to break game features, perhaps it shouldn't be optional?
--- Or ---
The optional researches should not count for chapter completion imo

Even this 1 wrinkle.....
the 2nd option is far superior to the 1st option.

"Optional" both for SS increases or expansions should
mean......... will not count against a player... If we were
allowed to move to the next chapter, then the previous
chapter was "considered to be completed" , therefore
should count for a diploma.

Otherwise, Inno is saying in 1 fell swoop....
No research is optional, no matter what the tree says.
 

Deleted User - 849411552

Guest
@MenolyDragonmist , is right, along with another
poster a few days back that said basically now she
needs detecated shanties to do Seasons.

Many ppl only have 2-3 workshops ( usually magic )
and just sparkle them when need'd. A current task I
have (weekly) is (40) groceries..... with 2 workshops,
each one needs 20 x9hrs = 180 hrs/24 = 7.5 days,
and thats if you logg'd on exactly every 9 hrs for
a whole week.

Yet again another case, for a city building game
not to punish players for LAND. If I didn't get hosed
for the 16 expansions I could place + a few more,
I'd have all the room I'd need to have 2-3 expansions
worth of space, for a Seasons shantytown.
Yes, that's quite right about the shanties for the Seasons quests. I have a small permanent shantytown of workshops and Tier 1 manus. It grows much bigger during the FA, but I have found that every event is much more playable with the existence of a small number of shanties. It is also fairly common to have shanty related quests in the guest race Chapter progressions. So between events, FAs and chapter quests - it just made sense for me to sacrifice part of the real estate to permanent small size productions (24 small workshops and 24 small manufactories).

Whether this is an appropriate sacrifice of land is debatable. Personally I call them craft breweries and specialized artisans, and I rather enjoy their presence. It seems realistic and civilized for a city to have these. :)
 

StarLoad

Well-Known Member
Actually, the real penalty is in some of the potions from the Cauldron. Sorry to burst the bubble, but here goes

And this is just from reading as I have not and do not plan to unlock the Cauldron.

You can make a potion that adds 10% health to your troops and this amount is quantifiable.
You can make a potion that increases the production of your basic goods by 10%.

This sounds equal but the goods are based on your "BASE" production and troops are based on total health.
Just another example of how fighters are rewarded and caterers are punished.

Ed
 

defiantoneks

Well-Known Member
Actually, the real penalty is in some of the potions from the Cauldron. Sorry to burst the bubble, but here goes

And this is just from reading as I have not and do not plan to unlock the Cauldron.

You can make a potion that adds 10% health to your troops and this amount is quantifiable.
You can make a potion that increases the production of your basic goods by 10%.

This sounds equal but the goods are based on your "BASE" production and troops are based on total health.
Just another example of how fighters are rewarded and caterers are punished.

Ed
but you're assuming the duration of effects is equal. while they are not.

at 10 levels higher, the troop enhancement lasts half as long.

Screen Shot 2023-01-31 at 7.17.05 PM.png
Screen Shot 2023-01-31 at 7.17.14 PM.png
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
You can make a potion that adds 10% health to your troops and this amount is quantifiable.
You can make a potion that increases the production of your basic goods by 10%.

This sounds equal but the goods are based on your "BASE" production and troops are based on total health.
Just another example of how fighters are rewarded and caterers are punished.
Firstly the military buffs are MUCH lower than the buffs to goods, not 10% vs 10%, more like 10% vs 90% (see images from @defiantoneks above)
Secondly, the military buff is also applied to the base, just like the goods boost.

e.g. Troop health is 100+50 from your dwarven armory+30 from your Martial Monastery/sanctuary = 180 health
The potion that gives you +10% health gives you 10 more, not 18 more which is a 5.6% increase in health.
And this is just from reading as I have not and do not plan to unlock the Cauldron.
You should, it's fantastic. Give it a try instead of listening to all the whingers out there who haven't even given it a chance.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Any additions to the Cauldron for putting KP into useless squadron upgrades would have to be significant to offset the loss of KP going into Ancient Wonder upgrades (and resulting loss of score growth).
So for years, you got a 1,500 KP discount on the tech tree compared to combatant players and now if you want full cauldron you'll have to pay the same as they always have? That's discrimination?
Military unit production quests do not have an option to "refresh" or be replaced with another quest.
Just like the produce goods quests in every event which have to be dealt with for fighters.

By being a non-combat city you gain a very significant advantage in space by not needing any of the 8 major military wonders, armories, merc camp, training grounds or barracks and all of the culture and pop needed to support those.

Dealing with a tiny downside for 1 quest type doesn't seem too onerous.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
People use the word "discriminate" pretty indiscriminately. Discrimination is being penalized for something over which you have no control. Everyone gets exactly the same choice in which techs to finish or not and how to run their city. Those choices have the same result for everyone who makes the same choice.
 

Henroo

Oh Wise One
Season of Dreams penalties: Military unit production quests do not have an option to "refresh" or be replaced with another quest. A level 5 barracks with 1 armory takes 5 DAYS to produce enough units to meet the requirements of a daily quest. It is mathematically not possible for my city to complete such a daily quest. My only option is to spend 120+ hours of time boosters. If military unit production quests had an option to refresh, this penalty would be removed.
What about alternate sources of getting troops which would also provide benefit for your cater city? For example the Dwarven Citadel set is a solid producer of sentient goods and seeds, which will help a cater city such as yourself. However it will also give you free troops daily, which would allow you to complete season quests. Forbidden Ruins set or the Wise Golem evolving building are also possibilities since they give daily troops in addition to other resources which would benefit you.
 
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