production and trade 16:1?

[DeletedUser3312]

I use the filters as well but it is bit time consuming.

 

[DeletedUser3468]

I have no problem with cross tier trades as long as they are also fair trades. One or zero star trades are ridiculous and not something I'll pick up... ever! On the other hand, there have been occasions where I had tons of steel but very few scrolls because a research used up the ones I had. Now both are boosted goods for me so I can't just buy scrolls at the trader like I would if I were short on crystal or silk (assuming I couldn't find them in trade). I have no problem with posting a cross tier trade of steel for scrolls but I am also going to make sure it is a 3 star trade to make it worth the bother. No one has to take it unless they want it. It isn't hurting anyone and might even help them since they're getting more than fair value for their scrolls as long as they're a neighbor or Fellowship member. Admittedly, I'm just starting chapter 5 so I'm not as far along as most of you but, as long as I have larger factories churning out more steel than I can use right now, why is it a problem for anyone else? (I'm just getting used to having to put up trades for 1,000 steel at a time which is mind boggling to me since I'd been dealing with 100 at a time before this.)

Disclaimer: I am not endorsing cross tier trades as a regular means of obtaining goods, only as a measure for when you're low on your other tier boosted goods and no one is offering what you need in trade anyway.

 

[DeletedUser3297]

Trading up, I take those all day, even if they are out of my area. Even if the offer is 1:2, 500 steel for 250 gems is an awesome deal imo.

But trading down IS taking advantage of people...

 

[DeletedUser3312]

Exactly Kayleegirl!!! I will take a trade up any time I can find one. smiles. They just don't often go that way. lol

 

[DeletedUser2963]

I also pick the trade ups up...always. Even at zero stars.

 

[DeletedUser43]

Sheianna, work out the amount of space it takes to trade the goods and you will see why they are not liked. That is why trading lower tiers to higher tiers is fine (it takes a lot less space to make the higher tier goods), but trading from higher tiers down is disliked because it takes so much more space to make the tier one goods needed to trade at the same ratios.

 

[Deleted User - 1028897]

I'm still kinda new and I really want to be fair trader. Even without working the numbers I could just sort of tell that getting 1,600 Marble for 100 Elixir wasn't quite fair. I started dropping it to 1oo/1400 but I still feel bad because now I feel like i'm enticing the newer folks to my possibly "bad" deals with the three stars.

What do you all think of this ratio? I see a person in my neighborhood offer the following:
100 T1 for 300 T2
100 T1 for 1200 T3

When I see that person's name I think, "cool - that's the cool elf with the great trades. I love this game." Is that fair or are those ratios still off?

 

[DeletedUser3297]

...Let me explain why these cross tier goods trades are so bad:

I will use the factories available in Fairies as an example.

In 20 squares of prime real estate (this is a city builder game and space is the highest commodity)
I can make 79.5 gems per square in a 3 hour period (1595 gems/20 squares of space).
That means I can make the trading equivalent of 1272 planks per square (because gems are traded at 16 to 1 because of the COST of the gems to produce.)
However, the same level plank factory can only produce 130.375 planks per square. (1043 planks/8 squares of space).


Or put another way. It takes 20 spaces to produce 1595 gems which is 25520 planks. But it takes 195 spaces to produce the 25520 planks. This is why the whole world quickly finds out that cross tier trades are really bad for them, though they may not know the math. (obviously these exact numbers change level by level, and good by good, but the concept remains the same).

You can mess with the ratios of trading, but then you will throw the cost of production into imbalance because currently the COST of production IS in balance....

Space trumps cost anyday. Coins and supplies are easy to get. So for me, 500 planks for 500 gems is a fair deal

 

[DeletedUser43]

Here is how I explained it in another thread:

Let me explain why these cross tier goods trades are so bad:

I will use the factories available in Fairies as an example.

In 20 squares of prime real estate (this is a city builder game and space is the highest commodity) I can make 79.5 gems per square in a 3 hour period (1595 gems/20 squares of space). That means I can make the trading equivalent of 1272 planks per square (because gems are traded at 16 to 1 because of the COST of the gems to produce.)
However, the same level plank factory can only produce 130.375 planks per square. (1043 planks/8 squares of space).


Or put another way. It takes 20 spaces to produce 1595 gems which is 25520 planks in an equal trade. But it takes 195 spaces to produce the 25520 planks.This is why the whole world quickly finds out that cross tier trades are really bad for them, though they may not know the math. (obviously these exact numbers change level by level, and good by good, but the concept remains the same).

If you want a visual of the situation, go see Soggy's post and look under the spoiler tags:
https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/discussion-release-notes-version-1-17.6402/page-7


Link23, basically, that is a long way of saying that no matter how fair you try to make the trades, most people won't see them as fair, because they aren't fair in the amount of space needed to make the trades. The more "fair" way is simply to trade the same tier goods for the same tier goods. That said, of course, if you put up a trade and someone needs it, then they are getting a trade they want.

 

[SoggyShorts]

I'm still kinda new and I really want to be fair trader. Even without working the numbers I could just sort of tell that getting 1,600 Marble for 100 Elixir wasn't quite fair. I started dropping it to 1oo/1400 but I still feel bad because now I feel like i'm enticing the newer folks to my possibly "bad" deals with the three stars.

What do you all think of this ratio? I see a person in my neighborhood offer the following:
100 T1 for 300 T2
100 T1 for 1200 T3

When I see that person's name I think, "cool - that's the cool elf with the great trades. I love this game." Is that fair or are those ratios still off?

9:4:2
T1:T2:T3

note: This only factors in how much space you need to support production of each tier. How many of each resource is required by the game for upgrades, techs etc. is not included. The true "value" is obviously greatly effected by how many of each good you require, and even that will vary based on your style of play and the chapter you are in.


EDIT: I made some cities with level 15 buildings
If someone wants to take the time and build 3 cities with each chapters available building we could get a more accurate picture.

Spoiler: math

Using
level 15 buildings and
central place culture
just over 300 squares
I managed to make
Elix 916
Crystal 1710
marble 2052

Going off of that, T3 is just a little more than 2x as demanding as crystal so
4 Tier 3 traded for 9 Tier 2 Is "fair"
And Crystal is only a bit more demanding than marble so
3 crystals for 4 marble

9:4:3

 

[Thistleknot]

Here is what I worked up.

For level 1 buildings:
Elves: 100 Planks manufactories, 6 Scrolls manufactories, 1 Magic Dust manufactory produce the equivalent amounts of goods. With supporting residencies, that's 484 squares, 142 squares, or 40 squares of space respectively.

Humans: 53 Planks manufactories, 5 Scrolls manufactories, 1 Magic Dust manufactory produce the equivalent amounts of goods. With supporting resicencies, that's 204 squares, 72 squares, or 22 squares of space respectively


For level 15 buildings:
Elves: 53 Planks manufactories, 5 Scrolls manufactories, 1 Magic Dust manufactory produce the equivalent amounts of goods. With supporting residencies and Gardens of Harmony, that's 828 squares, 245 squares, or 95 squares of space respectively.

Humans: 20 Planks manufactories, 7 Scrolls manufactories, 1 Magic Dust manufactory produce the equivalent amounts of goods. With supporting resicencies and Central Places, that's 772 squares, 292 squares, or 88 squares of space respectively.

All productions produce the equivalent amount of goods in a 24-hour period. I did one set for Elves and Humans to give a perspective for each group. I chose these particular goods since they are the ones that I have boosts for.

Takes a whole lot of space to produce Tier-1 goods to equal that single Tier-3 manufactory.

 

[Deleted User - 1028897]

At some point back in August I posted
9:4:3
T1:T2:T3

But I can't find any of my calculations for that, and I was very new to the game, so take it with a grain of salt.

I'll try and do up some mock cities on elvenararchitect to see what equal sized cities can make for each tier when I have time

Thanks, Soggy. I went back and re-read the thread. This is all very interesting.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Takes a whole lot of space to produce Tier-1 goods to equal that single Tier-3 manufactory.

Did you build workshops?
Using elvenararchitect you need
Daily T3 production x32 supplies per day
Daily T2 production x8 supplies per day
Daily T1 production x 2 per day

 

[Thistleknot]

Did you build workshops?

No. I need to go back and factor that information in. ARRRRGGGG!!! Thanks for spoiling a perfectly false piece of data. It looked so good. Ok. Give me a bit to work that information in.

May need some help here: In order to add the Workshop information into my formulas, I need help finding out the following:

How many supplies does it cost to do a 24-hour production for each of the following?
Level-1 Planks, Level-1 Scrolls, Level-1 Magic Dust, Level-15 Planks, Level-15 Scrolls, and Level-15 Magic Dust.
Need this for Elves and Humans.

Any help is fully appreciated.
Thanks.

 

[SoggyShorts]

How many supplies does it cost

Daily T3 production x32 supplies per day
Daily T2 production x8 supplies per day
Daily T1 production x 2 per day

 

[Thistleknot]

Soggy,
Your picture shows how many planks per day are being produced. This does not show how many supplies are necessary to produce these planks. Without that data, I cannot figure out how many workshops are necessary to support the manufactories.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Soggy,
Your picture shows how many planks per day are being produced. This does not show how many supplies are necessary to produce these planks. Without that data, I cannot figure out how many workshops are necessary to support the manufactories.

Take your planks/marble/steel per day number, and multiply it by 2
Take your crys/scr/silk per day number and multiply it by 8
Tier 3 per day x 32

You are using elvenararchitect I assume?
My example picture shows 19 planks per day, So I know I need to make 19*2-38 supoplies to run it per day

 

[Thistleknot]

My example picture shows 19 planks per day, So I know I need to make 19*2-38 supoplies to run it per day

I was not using elvenarchitect. I am just figuring things out using Excel. I was missing what you were saying about the multiplier to figure out how many supplies that you need. I will rework my numbers with this new information and see what I come up with.

 

[Thistleknot]

Here is the updated version that includes workshops.

For level 1 buildings:
Elves: 100 Planks manufactories, 6 Scrolls manufactories, 1 Magic Dust manufactory produce the equivalent amounts of goods. With supporting residencies and workshops, that's 568 squares, 230 squares, or 120 squares of space respectively.

Humans: 53 Planks manufactories, 5 Scrolls manufactories, 1 Magic Dust manufactory produce the equivalent amounts of goods. With supporting residencies and workshops, that's 244 squares, 112 squares, or 62 squares of space respectively


For level 15 buildings:
Elves: 53 Planks manufactories, 5 Scrolls manufactories, 1 Magic Dust manufactory produce the equivalent amounts of goods. With supporting residencies, workshops, and Gardens of Harmony, that's 972 squares, 380 squares, or 209 squares of space respectively.

Humans: 20 Planks manufactories, 7 Scrolls manufactories, 1 Magic Dust manufactory produce the equivalent amounts of goods. With supporting residencies, workshops, and Central Places, that's 900 squares, 400 squares, or 196 squares of space respectively.

All productions produce the equivalent amount of goods in a 24-hour period. I based the workshop numbers on 24-hour productions as well. I did one set for Elves and Humans to give a perspective for each group. I chose these particular goods since they are the ones that I have boosts for.

That should give a fairly accurate look at what it takes for cross-tier trading.

 

[SoggyShorts]

That should give a fairly accurate look at what it takes for cross-tier trading.

Nice work!
Looks like they are very close to 9:4:3, maybe closer to 9:4:2 for space.
Your level 15 planks is an almost perfect example
900:400:196
Reversing the space ratio gives us the fair trade ratio
9 planks equals
4 scrolls equals
2 Dust

EDIT: I've changed the first post to reflect this data