Quest Taking more to complete and lost of quest.

[DeletedUser]

You're still ENTIRELY misconstruing expenses. $$ and Diamonds have very little to do with the costs of your city or buildings. Cost is a GENERAL term that covers ALL of the resources that are consumed.

EXPENSES are everything that you put into a city, or a construction project. Man hours, material, key/mouse clicks, graph paper time, spreadsheet development, head scratching time, and yes a few diamonds if that's your playing style.

BENEFITS are what you've accomplished. How far you've progressed along your tech tree, plus the level of your Ancient Wonders. Your inventory of goods are also considered an asset but ONLY if you could actually sell everything.

The Game Score indicates how EXPENSIVE your city is, which has very little to do with how much you've accomplished.
Score = Required Culture + Required Population + distance weighted Relics.
EXPENSIVE is NOT a good thing in a city builder.

Now, to be entirely fair, my forum activities are VERY expensive. That counts too; I'm not any sort of purist.
But all of my cities are well-balanced, and they thrive nicely with very little maintenance, and THAT'S the soul of a city builder.

Just muddling through is probably the least expensive way to develop your city. Solve problems when they arise, and don't try to rush things.

CAN you play the game to maximize your Score=Expenses? Of course you can, but don't get all huffy when the developers block you at every turn. This game is about building cities that thrive on their own, even though you're trying to turn it into just another arcade game.

You are defining the terms according to your own will and then impose them on other players, claiming they are not playing in the right way. How absurd that sounds?

Now let me do the definition: the game score indicates how DEVELOPED your city is, and THAT'S the soul of a city builder.

CAN you play the game to minimize your 'man hours, material, key/mouse clicks, graph paper time, spreadsheet development, head scratching time, or a few diamonds'? Of course you can, but don't get all huffy when you learn that new beginners have LESS expensive cities than you do.

 

[DeletedUser43]

Now let me do the definition: the game score indicates how DEVELOPED your city is, and THAT'S the soul of a city builder.

^^

 

[DeletedUser627]

...
A well managed project, or city builder,

• Stays on schedule (keeps up with the 24 Knowledge Points per day, as they accumulate)
• And does so for a low overall cost
• As the developers have expressed the concept, the objective is to build a well-balanced city that "thrives on its own."

Maximizing EXPENSES, in a City Builder game such as Elvenar,
would be like someone shing owing up at a construction site and flouncing around in their evening gown.
They may actually look like a million dollars, but it's neither the time nor the place for their tiara.​

You have no support for these statements.

Please direct me to the specific place within the game where the developers express that the objective is to build...a city that "thrives on its own". You cannot. So, that failing:

Please direct me to where the developers have so much as indicated - either in specific or non-specific terms within the game - that one's city should function independent of quests? You cannot. Which bring us to the opposite fact:

Please inform to me why, if your interpretion of the game is correct, the developers score / rank players without consideration of the objectives you claim above? We are ranked for using every coin, every supply, every grid, and maximizing them to produce the most goods and military units. Yes, you disagree with that scoring system, and propose that Inno change the rating calculations in order to favor your personal city-building concept, all the while blatantly claiming that your game is the best one despite its obvious variance from the in-game "guidance".

You don't play the game as it's given - you're playing according to an alternate understanding. Since the developers are continually making modifications which favor your game - and not those of us who enter and play according to the "guidance" given us solely via our Elvenar experience - the possible explanations for this are interesting:

• You played FoE extensively. Perhaps this experience is necessary - perhaps those of us without it are being taken advantage of because we don't have access to the level of "special knowledge" one gains from other games. If this is true, Inno has been unfair and negligent. This game didn't have a warning, "players unfamiliar with FoE will be at a disadvantage. Proceed with care, especially with regard to purchases."
• You have special knowledge because you're connected with Inno, either formally or informally
• You're clairvoyant and lucky to boot. Rather superhero-ish, even...since you can invent your own way of playing - considerably different than how the game itself lays out - and then start convincing the developers to modify their own game to suit your personal preferences. Make that "super-villain-ish", given the constant forum posts that attempt to crush / belittle every playing methodology other than your own.

 

[DeletedUser1161]

Oh Aydenn, what a babe in the woods you are.

Insulting other forum members is not adding anything to the discussion. Of course the devs want money. They have families and kids to support like everyone else. You write as if you are entitled to their game and hard work for free.

 

[DeletedUser1161]

We've opened a Trading Post for trading outside your own fellowship or neighborhood. There's no incidental trading there at this point, but it's up and running for arranged trades.

For example, our fellowship was contacted by another fellowship whose needs complemented ours, so I'll be joining the Arendyll Trading Post for 24 hours - just enough time to exchange our goods and return. It's very helpful.

Thanks for letting me know about that. Do I contact your fellowship or is there a forum post somewhere? Dust is eventually going to be a serious issue in my fellowship.

 

[DeletedUser627]

You can contact Frostwyrm or me...or both of us and see who gets back to you first. Or search Arendyll Trading Post.

 

[DeletedUser61]

it will take me two years before I scout all the provinces needed to get the maximum space available now

You're neglecting several relevant concepts:

1. Your military will become more effective as the tech tree advances, and training your military ONLY requires supplies.
2. Your Ancient Wonders will dramatically shift the balances.

• Knowledge Points and Rune Shards may be earned by contributing to Ancient Wonders. Each AW level pays out around a total of about 10% of the contributed Knowledge Points, plus Rune Shards
• Troop Health and Culture, from a Marital Monastery or a Great Bell Spire
• Neighborly Help (Goods), from a Crystal Lighthouse or a Great Bell Spire
• Extra Troops and Faster Training, from a Dwarven Bulwark
• Goods and Population, from a Mountain Halls

I also think that a large part of the problem lies with the developer's use of Cost to indicate Global Rank

• See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost–benefit_analysis
• Costs are the current Required Population + Required Culture + weighted Relics
• Benefits are Knowledge Points INVESTED in the Tech Tree plus contributions to Ancient Wonders
• The Cost/Benefit Ratio, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost–benefit_analysis would indicate how effectively you're managing your city

Global Rank should be based on BENEFITS, not COSTS.

Now let me do the definition: the game score indicates how DEVELOPED your city is, and THAT'S the soul of a city builder.

Not really, and therein lies the problem. Take a look at https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index....s-rather-than-costs-for-the-global-rank.1317/. Your comments and observations would be very much appreciated.

Please direct me to the specific place within the game where the developers express that the objective is to build...a city that "thrives on its own"

See https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/inde...-changes-in-declining-quests.3278/#post-26571, which was posted by Muf-Muf, who is the Beta Community Manager. That's a pretty decent source.

Elvenar is not meant to be played through within a few weeks. It is meant to be able to enjoy for many months. Also, see it as a new challenge: building the buildings in your city to make your economy thrive on its own, without relying on sidequests all the time (or did you enjoy doing the same quest over and over and over?).

I've been happily playing City Builders for 20 years. OF COURSE I have a decent feel for the genre, and I'm delighted that InnoGames is going after that segment of the gaming market.

 

[DeletedUser43]

You're neglecting a couple of concepts:

Actually, no. I am ONLY talking about the scouting times. I haven't even added in any time to train troops or get wonders or get goods. Just scouting times.

See https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/inde...-changes-in-declining-quests.3278/#post-26571, which was posted by Muf-Muf, who is the Beta Community Manager. That's a pretty decent source.

I was recently informed that posting things from moderators on other forums is not allowed on this forum.

 

[DeletedUser61]

Actually, no. I am ONLY talking about the scouting times.

Take a look at https://en.wiki.elvenar.com/index.php?title=Expansions#Province_Expansions_Overview.
Did you run your Scouting Costs all the way out to 500 sectors?

@bobbypiazza asked for a source, and she now HAS one, context and all. Quoting "moderators on other forums" out of context is pretty bad form, but you're more than welcome to follow the provided link and to make your own independent judgement regarding the context associated with the quote.

 

[DeletedUser43]

Perhaps a moderator can let us know the forum rules? I was told that it is against forum rules to post quotes here from moderators on other forums.

Quoting anyone out of context is pretty bad form.

Regarding that wiki post, no, I didn't go that far out, I don't need to go out 500 provinces to get all the expansions. At least I don't think I do. If I do, then it will take me even longer.

 

[DeletedUser]

Global Rank should be based on BENEFITS, not COSTS.


Not really, and therein lies the problem. Take a look at https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index....s-rather-than-costs-for-the-global-rank.1317/. Your comments and observations would be very much appreciated.

Again, your definition of those terms is very misleading. I saw the post and found couple fundamental flaws, but I wan't about to argue because it was your own thread, but it ill behooves you to judge other players with your flawed theory under other's thread.

**********Reply to Katwijk's cost-benefit analysis thread, can be skipped**********
In a cost-benefit analysis, costs should directly produce the benefits, but the costs and the benefits under your definition have no relation whatsoever. Do you invest population, culture, and distance-weighted relics to produce KP's? NO. Click on the plus sign next to your KP bar, and you'll see what produce KP's. Keep in mind though that the number of KP's is not what people always look to maximize, and it doesn't capture how DEVELOPED your city is, so it's not a good indicator.

Let me give you two sets of correlated costs and benefits:
from a city point of view- you invest coins, supplies, and goods to achieve more culture, population, and provinces conquered;
from an industrial point of view- you invest culture, population, and lands, which capture the number of provinces conquered and the number of KP's invested, to achieve higher production levels of coins, supplies, and goods.

Whichever point of view you take, culture, population, and provinces conquered stand in the core of city development, so a score system comprising all three of them is pretty robust IMHO.
**********End of reply**********

All in all, if you are not satisfied with the metrics the game uses to rank players, challenge the devs, but please DON'T judge other players with your gratuitous theory.

 

[DeletedUser627]

https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/inde...-changes-in-declining-quests.3278/#post-26571, which was posted by Muf-Muf, who is the Beta Community Manager. That's a pretty decent source.

Katwijk, I specified a source "within the game". The Forums don't qualify as a decent source. Players don't come to the forum to learn how to play, and they aren't directed to the Forum. And Arendyll players, for the most part, don't even know a Beta forum exists.

And, if Forum Moderators speak on behalf of the game, this should cause players consternation. The fact that Moderators give players direction, like "build a city that thrives on its own", which significantly varies from the in-game "guidance" Inno touts, would lead a person to question their motivations.

 

[DeletedUser1161]

Please direct me to where the developers have so much as indicated - either in specific or non-specific terms within the game - that one's city should function independent of quests?

I got the impression from playing the game that I needed to build my city to work independent of quests. I kept getting research quests that were ahead of me on the tree and took over 100 KP to eventually complete, quests to upgrade my barracks that took an overwhelming amount of goods, or quests to get wood relics only I had already conquered the nearby provinces so I had to wait for a squad size upgrade. I patiently accumulated stuff or researched until I could complete the quests. At one point I sat with the same open quests for almost a week because the game gave no indication of what would happen if I declined them. The quests were in chains and I was afraid I would miss out on the story line (what little there is), or get something even harder.

That lead to me assume that my city was supposed to function independent of quests. If you can only complete a quest every few days it's not very sensible to count on them as a reliable source of gold or supplies. Sometimes I will get a bonanza of goodies when research quests catch up but it's not frequent enough to run my city. Furthermore, there is no in-game indication that if you sit and decline quests over and over, the quest system will eventually reward you with a fast/easy one. Most games don't work that way so it really didn't even occur to me to try.

 

[DeletedUser61]

I specified a source "within the game". The Forums don't qualify as a decent source.

If you click on Game, at the bottom of the login page, and read the first few pages, you'll soon find

The heart of the city builder: residences, workshops & more
...
Residences offer more housing space for your citizens and can be upgraded to your city's benefit. Workshops or Manufactories find ever better methods to provide you with more building materials. This is very important as you progress in Elvenar, the online city builder game.

The term "city builder game" appears on nearly every page, and once you've said "City Builder" you've said a lot. The genre has a LONG history. I would refer you to http://www.mobygames.com/game-group/genre-simulation-city-building.

Group Description
City Building games identify its primary gameplay as the construction, development, administration, and management of a city, town, or similar venues where the player takes the role of a governor, ruler, or similar roles to successfully achieve the aforementioned goals.

This managerial simulation/strategy hybrid was initially popularized by games such as the SimCity series and Caesar series. Traditionally such games were identified with an isometric or top-down visual perspective and were also usually real-time.

City building games usually are identifiable by one or more of the following traits.

• Main gameplay map is the city or town itself.
• The city or town mentioned are usually already owned or may only be developed by the player.
• Any form of opposition usually is located off-map.
• Manual strategic placement of roads, structures or other buildings.
• Manual management of citizen demands.
• Trade and taxation, usually micro economics.
• Upgrading options for structures and buildings.
• Manipulation and exploitation of surrounding resources.

Limitations
City building must be identified as the primary gameplay of the specified game. Not to be confused with RTS (Real-Time Strategy) games or other strategy games, where building does occur, however as a secondary part of gameplay (e.g. for warfare purposes, although still an important part of the gameplay). Thus, such games should be excluded from this game group (simply put, gameplay is primarily for city building purposes).

Examples of aforementioned games not to be included: Age of Empires, Warcraft, Command and Conquer, Railroad Tycoon, etc.

That said, I do agree that the global ranking system that's used in Elvenar is not appropriate for a City Builder game, and I would invite you to comment on my proposal at https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index....s-rather-than-costs-for-the-global-rank.1317/

 

[DeletedUser43]

If you can only complete a quest every few days it's not very sensible to count on them as a reliable source of gold or supplies. Sometimes I will get a bonanza of goodies when research quests catch up but it's not frequent enough to run my city. Furthermore, there is no in-game indication that if you sit and decline quests over and over, the quest system will eventually reward you with a fast/easy one. Most games don't work that way so it really didn't even occur to me to try.

Yeah, the game actually tries to scare you into declining quests, lol. No. The quests you decline are on a loop. You can decline them as often as you want and then they come back around again. When you change from chapter to chapter in the tech tree the loops of quests change. Often when you first hit a new chapter you get one that is impossible for you to do right now. Just decline it and either it comes back again or if it doesn't you lost out nothing.

We have all learned that we can complete several quests in a row when we sign in each day. Set your factories for 3 hour stints...grab two of those for the gain 2 advanced tools and then gain the number of coins you need and that quest is satisfied. Then move on to the Gain x number of your boosted goods and satisfy that quest. Go to the next Gain x number of your next boosted good and satisfy that quest. And the third quest. Make sure you have a quest sitting there ready if you are upgrading buildings too. You need to have the quest up on the screen at least a minute before the building finishes upgrading, but no more.

The more you play this game, the more experience you get. Quests are tools just like anything else in this game. Feel free to ask people the best ways to use those tools.

Just keep in mind that everything about this game changes. They used to give you a much bigger bonus for your cultural buildings too, and then that changed and people had to rework all their culture. Tomorrow the workshops might give you half as many supplies. You just don't know.

 

[DeletedUser627]

I got the impression from playing the game that I needed to build my city to work independent of quests. I kept getting research quests that were ahead of me on the tree ...

I started playing in July, and didn't face the particulars you described. When did you start playing?

My storyline quests sometimes took quite a while to complete. The declinable quests were easy at first - and crucial to developing enough coins and supplies. Once they started getting ridiculously difficult, I thought "what the heck" and declined one, then another just to see what would happen. Nothing terrible, in fact, it started getting better. I took the cautionary tone of the decline box to be story lore - like an old wives' tale. "Don't go into the forest at night", but the forest is where all the treasure is...

Given the fact that they could be successfully declined, it never occurred to me that it would be better to sit there and have virtually nothing to do for days on end. Had I realized that this game wasn't supposed to be played - it's the virtual equivalent of having a goldfish bowl - I never would have spent any money for it.

If I had to summarize the problem with the declinable quests is that it created reasonable expectations on the part of players, that we could have active play on the game site. This lead us to spend more money than we would have. Inno planned ahead for this, publishing the disclaimer that they could change the game at any point....which they have done. Now I've paid $1000 for a city and feel like a sucker.

 

[DeletedUser1161]

I started playing in July, and didn't face the particulars you described. When did you start playing?

My storyline quests sometimes took quite a while to complete. The declinable quests were easy at first - and crucial to developing enough coins and supplies. Once they started getting ridiculously difficult, I thought "what the heck" and declined one, then another just to see what would happen. Nothing terrible, in fact, it started getting better. I took the cautionary tone of the decline box to be story lore - like an old wives' tale. "Don't go into the forest at night", but the forest is where all the treasure is...

Given the fact that they could be successfully declined, it never occurred to me that it would be better to sit there and have virtually nothing to do for days on end. Had I realized that this game wasn't supposed to be played - it's the virtual equivalent of having a goldfish bowl - I never would have spent any money for it.

If I had to summarize the problem with the declinable quests is that it created reasonable expectations on the part of players, that we could have active play on the game site. This lead us to spend more money than we would have. Inno planned ahead for this, publishing the disclaimer that they could change the game at any point....which they have done. Now I've paid $1000 for a city and feel like a sucker.

I'm really sorry to hear that you have been ripped off to that degree. I didn't realize the degree of bait-and-switch. That sucks.

I think I started in October? I'm only starting Act IV. I clearly wasn't as successful at thinking outside the quest box as you were. Part of it might be that "goldfish bowl" style play suits me at the moment. I used to be pretty into gaming but other hobbies took over and I have shifted to games that don't demand a lot of time. I did have a painfully slow period when I ran out of elves and space for more houses; I did get past that point with diamonds. I'm totally OK with paying some money for a game I'm enjoying.

 

[DeletedUser907]

bobbipiazza, Here is my problem.
When your just starting out on the game and have been playing for less than a month. They take away one of the only quest you have to get you anywhere. Without the "Gain goods quest". You don't have enough gold or supplies to buy stuff you need from the trade that you can't get from your fellowship. You can't fight the encounters, because your sooo out numbered it's not funny. You can't train troops fast enough. You can't pay the Negotiator price because you Don't have the resources to pay for them.
You can't buy Knowledge points because you don't have the gold or resources to do that either.
You can't get anywhere in the research tree without knowledge point. So you have to wait on the clock to get them.
So I'm stuck waiting.
Can't upgrade buildings because I need space. Which means. You got it. Need to do encounters. Can't do. So I wait.

This Is not a game your supposed to just sit and wait and wait and wait.
I'll quit and find something more interesting before I wait much longer.

I totally agree with the " Gain goods quest "
Please bring it back to the game as it was the best way for all of us to get ahead.
I do not understand why u felt u had to take it out in the first place ?
Also the gain coins quest!
Please bring them back to the game!
U had no right to take the 2 most valued rotating quest out of our game.
This gain coins Quest also helped us in adding coins so as we could purchase provinces much faster.
Does, not any of our opinions count?
And it is totally unfair for u to ask us in order to collect from the making of our goods that we now have to have 5,000 in supplies to be able to collect!
Please hear our cries, Elvenar and take this out of our collecting of goods!
What do u want us to do make nothing but workshops in order to collect from making of goods which is one of the main things to the game, ?
We need our space for malfactories not workshops,
Zushy,

I totally agree with the " Gain goods quest "
Please bring it back to the game as it was the best way for all of us to get ahead.
I do not understand why u felt u had to take it out in the first place ?
Also it has hurt my making any coins in my visits as well,
It has really hurt me not having this Quest.
Please again , bring it back.
Zushy,

hi Zushy, I agree, the "gain goods" quest is good for the game. it gave players more flexibility in getting a few coin/supplies to help grow their city.
sure I can hear, that ooh my it can be abused with players flipping trades, but please for the most part.. the flippers have already quit playing. let's focus on making this a fun game that give players choices on how to enjoy their time in Elvenar.

bobbipiazza, Here is my problem.
When your just starting out on the game and have been playing for less than a month. They take away one of the only quest you have to get you anywhere. Without the "Gain goods quest". You don't have enough gold or supplies to buy stuff you need from the trade that you can't get from your fellowship. You can't fight the encounters, because your sooo out numbered it's not funny. You can't train troops fast enough. You can't pay the Negotiator price because you Don't have the resources to pay for them.
You can't buy Knowledge points because you don't have the gold or resources to do that either.
You can't get anywhere in the research tree without knowledge point. So you have to wait on the clock to get them.
So I'm stuck waiting.
Can't upgrade buildings because I need space. Which means. You got it. Need to do encounters. Can't do. So I wait.

This Is not a game your supposed to just sit and wait and wait and wait.
I'll quit and find something more interesting before I wait much longer.

I totally agree with this and also the fact that now we also have to have 5,000 in supplies along with having made the goods for the 1 day Quest?
What is up with that?
Does the game not see that we would have to build several workshops in order to get anything from the making of the 1 day goods.
Please put it back the way it was with just the making of the 1 day goods to get our coins and supplies,
Zushy,

 

[DeletedUser43]

"Changes you don't like( read, stop messing with our quests) are implemented because the majority of players aren't bothered by it. The developers read your feedback, and it is up to them to do something with it."

https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/discussion-release-notes-version-0-30.3747/page-8

Maybe not enough are bothered by it. You don't see many people here complaining. Only a small handful.

 

[DeletedUser626]

each time the declinable quests have been changed (with exception of .26 update they liked getting all those goods from the 24 hour quest), I've heard a lot of complaints in fellowship chat regarding the quest rebalancing (nerfs) from .27 forward, hurting their city.

perhaps a misplaced hope in that the majority of complaints they read on this forum, will be worked on to improve the gaming experience for all.