Quest Taking more to complete and lost of quest.

[DeletedUser1208]

I had a Quest to Collect 50k gold for 4k supplies on tier 2. After update it change to 60k gold and make 2 advance tools for workshop( Which is a 3 hour deal). For the same 4k supplies. It takes me about 4 hours to get my houses up to that level gold. So I can collect them.

You also took away all quest that have to do with "Gain good" for gold and supplies. This Just made it even harder to get anything done.

The Game is hard enough as it is. You are just making it going from a crawl to a stop.

You give Us quest that don't make sense to do. Like these.
Produce 1 giant globe(steel 1 day) and gain 5k supplies for 80k gold
Produce 1 mage journal(scroll 1day) and gain 5k supplies for 80k gold
Who in there right mind is going to do these quest. They don't give you enough steel or scrolls to make it worth your wild to do these. You don't have the deals even out. You get more in doing three 3 hours deals then you do for one 9 hour deal. You should get more for doing a 9 hour deal. Same for a day or 2 day. Make it worth Our wild to do these deals and we would do them.

 

[DeletedUser627]

dneely, here's one of my favorite quests:

make 4000 magical goods for 1000 supplies.

Let's see...it takes over four 3-hour production runs to produce the goods - that's 12 hours minimum.

It takes over 5800 supplies for each 3-hour production - that's about 23,000 supplies, the equivalent of 11-12 of my workshops production in 3 hours.

So...one quest requires 33 workshop hours and 12 hours manufactory time...for 1000 supplies reward.
​

I do them anyway, just because there's nothing else to do, but it's like digging salt mines.

 

[DeletedUser1208]

bobbipiazza, Here is my problem.
When your just starting out on the game and have been playing for less than a month. They take away one of the only quest you have to get you anywhere. Without the "Gain goods quest". You don't have enough gold or supplies to buy stuff you need from the trade that you can't get from your fellowship. You can't fight the encounters, because your sooo out numbered it's not funny. You can't train troops fast enough. You can't pay the Negotiator price because you Don't have the resources to pay for them.
You can't buy Knowledge points because you don't have the gold or resources to do that either.
You can't get anywhere in the research tree without knowledge point. So you have to wait on the clock to get them.
So I'm stuck waiting.
Can't upgrade buildings because I need space. Which means. You got it. Need to do encounters. Can't do. So I wait.

This Is not a game your supposed to just sit and wait and wait and wait.
I'll quit and find something more interesting before I wait much longer.

 

[DeletedUser535]

dneely, here's one of my favorite quests:

make 4000 magical goods for 1000 supplies.

Let's see...it takes over four 3-hour production runs to produce the goods - that's 12 hours minimum.

It takes over 5800 supplies for each 3-hour production - that's about 23,000 supplies, the equivalent of 11-12 of my workshops production in 3 hours.

So...one quest requires 33 workshop hours and 12 hours manufactory time...for 1000 supplies reward.
​

I do them anyway, just because there's nothing else to do, but it's like digging salt mines.

Unfortunately, this seems to be a habit with the designers. Regardless of their getting endless feedback from players, they proceed to create quests that take too long and cost too much to satisfy, and give completely inadequate rewards. And they complain when players skip such quests. Well, the reasons that players skip lengthy, expensive and unrewarding quests is obvious, and has been talked to death on the forum many times. Yet the designers persist in creating such quests again and again. Most lately, they have removed the more rewarding quests (like "gain XXX amount of coins, or XXX amount of goods"). These were the easiest quests to do, and the most rewarding. And, they were quests that virtually any player could do, regardless of what level you are playing at. So the designers decided to replace these quests with what I call the "double demand" quests. We have all seen them, the ones that demand you collect XXX amount of coins, plus one Fireworks, or an Armchair, etc. And at least one of the requests is sure to be a 24 hour production. And it is not like the rewards for these quests are double what they were. If anything, the rewards are so inadequate that it is a waste of a player's time to even consider them. Why spend a full day satisfying a quest, to get a reward of 20,000 coins? Most players could produce that many coins in a fraction of the time using their own buildings. The designers know this, it has been pointed out to them hundreds, if not thousands, of times in the forum by players. Yet the designers continue to do exactly what they want, regardless of what the players (their customers) want. One of their biggest blunders was done months ago, on Beta, when they made all quests mandatory. Thankfully, they got so much negative feedback from a large majority of the players that they changed that. But they are still designing quests that are a nuisance and a waste of time, and ones that offer totally inadequate rewards. They have not come up with quests that are more rewarding, or more interesting, or anything that the players have requested time and again. I don't know why they keep asking for feedback, when it is painfully obvious that they are not interested.

 

[Deleted User - 107391]

I don't know why they keep asking for feedback, when it is painfully obvious that they are not interested.

That would be my conclusion - they want to foster the illusion that they are listening, but actually have no intention of changing anything based on feedback. My observation is that they are barely keeping ahead of the more aggressive players, and trying everything to slow things down.

 

[DeletedUser1161]

Produce 1 mage journal(scroll 1day) and gain 5k supplies for 80k gold

I just got this one, except for silk. You have to give up more than 80K worth of silk to do a 24 hour production. Do they think we can't do simple arithmetic?

 

[DeletedUser43]

As I am already blue in the face, I have no danger of anything happening to me if I repeat myself. There isn't that much of a game here. We made the game good enough to stay by doing the repeating quests and getting enough goods and coins so that we weren't bored out of our minds. They seem to think that we are figuring out a way around buying diamonds. Actually, all we have all been doing is making the game a teeny tiny bit interesting. When they stopped the quests completely, most of the players stopped playing. The game is impossible without resources. That scared them so they had to give us the quests back, but they don't want us to do them, so they keep messing with them and making them worse and worse.

They are going to hoist themselves on their own petard. They might manage to get the quests away from us, but if they do, they won't have anyone here. Watching paint dry just isn't that much fun.

You can still keep playing for now. If you need coins and supplies just trade your boosted goods back and forth with a friend. I think trading the tier one and tier two goods are your best bet. It is slow and mind numbing, but it keeps the game going and gives you some resources. If they take that away too, I am afraid they will discover that they haven't created a very fun game. So, before they do...happy flipping boosted goods!

And don't forget....level 1 workshops are all you need for that produce advanced tools requirement....and yes...it is absurd that we have to waste needed space on silly little workshops.

I feel like I am under water trying desperately to keep breathing through a straw that gets smaller with each update.

Hang in there everyone. If they really make this game too unplayable, well, they won't have any players and then they may finally see we were right all along. Keep letting them know the issues. Keep speaking up. One day they will hear us. After all, we have truth on our side. The game really is too slow.

 

[DeletedUser1161]

As a new player, I just assumed we were supposed to log in periodically, collect stuff and start factories, and not really hang out in the game. I lose out on shards now if I conquer too many provinces before I can research Ancient Wonders so I don't even fight much. I play because I like to see the gradual growth of my city. Quests have never been a big part of my game because I get so many "research X technology" quests that take me 2-3 days to complete. I have never played a city builder where you relied on quests past the first week or two so I assumed that was intended. The quest rewards were quite good so finishing one was a nice boost.

The thing that really bugs me is that now the rewards have become either trivial or negative. Either the devs think we can't do math, or they can't do math. I'm not going to tie up a good factory for 24 hours and lose goods in exchange for a paltry handful of coin, or keep enough spare elves and space to put up lvl 1 factories. I'm not interested in getting relics for a couple houses' worth of coin and 1500 supplies either. I'm saving provinces for shards later, as there are five expansions I can get in Act IV through research. Obviously the devs haven't thought through the fighting/relic quests in the context of the Ancient Wonders.

 

[DeletedUser61]

I have never played a city builder where you relied on quests past the first week or two so I assumed that was intended.

I think you've got it exactly right.

• In the advanced chapters, quests should be a bit of a bonus for stuff that you were going to do anyway.
  So quests influence my timing, but that's about it.
• Likewise with acquiring sectors. I pretty much wait for a related quest, that will up the ante a bit, so that I can double dip.

 

[DeletedUser43]

You have it right that either they can't do math or they assume we can't do math. The quests were supposed to guide us. Instead it seems everything the devs gear you towards now hinders you in this game. If you set your factories or workshops for the most efficient production times, you lose out on the bonuses. Sure, you can ignore the bonuses, but then you lose out on goods and supplies. If you build the factories a quest tells you to, you are building a harmful building (you should never be building non boosted factories). Then, if you were smart and tore down the building you didn't need and shouldn't have, the quests will come back and have you build another one just so you can upgrade it and then tear it down again.

The scoring in this game sets you up to have a very poorly run city. The better you score, the worse your city runs.

The new features in this game set you up for more failure....build ancient wonders, lose boosted relics and lose goods production.

It is all very poorly designed. The farther you advance, the more the poor design affects you. You are at constant war with the goals of the designers and the goals of a well functioning city. The game is a new category: the PvD Player vs Developer.

As the game progresses it is very clear to me that the developers aren't stupid. They are intentionally setting all kinds of roadblocks in your way. They know they are making your city harder to function. That is the point. The game is becoming pay or you can't play. Certainly it is pay or you can't compete. But, more and more it is pay or you can't function. It gets harder and harder each update. It is also becoming pay more or you can't function and then pay more and pay more and pay more.

Additionally, as you progress in this game you are isolated more and more. There are fewer and fewer players you can be fellows with because your groups trading needs are so large. We are now up to trading 5000 and 10,0000 goods back and forth regularly. You can't bring a newer player into a fellowship like that. So you have your fellows...that is great. Until you get a new update and several of them walk out. Then what? But the game has no contingency plan for you, nor does it seem to care. They want their money now and don't care if the game can keep going. You play more, invest more, and you are harmed more than anyone else with these updates. It is a very shortsighted model. But, idk...maybe customer service is a model of the past and the new way to make a fortune is to grab what you can when you can and to heck with customer satisfaction. They will keep grabbing more and more until this game collapses and then on to the next game I guess.

 

[DeletedUser1161]

Games are about tradeoffs.

• Do you want an efficient city or a high-scoring city?
• Do you want to run factories efficiently or tweak the game to get the most out of the quests?
• Do you want wonders or is holding onto your relics more important to you?

Without some choices this game would be pretty dull.

Your hyperbole about not functioning is not contributing to the discussion. Your city is making the same amount of coins, supplies, and goods as it always has. You're just losing the ability to game the quests. Unfortunately people like you have ruined the quests for the rest of us who weren't madly rejecting quests to find a favorite. I don't have much sympathy since now I'm getting quests that actually cost me gold and goods if I'm suckered into taking them. Today's 24 hour gem production for 80K gold was particularly irritating.

As for trade, we all know it's fundamentally broken. Your only choices are to go OCD about maintaining a near-perfect fellowship or pay exorbitant prices at the trader.

 

[DeletedUser43]

Oh Aydenn, what a babe in the woods you are.

 

[DeletedUser1208]

As I am already blue in the face, I have no danger of anything happening to me if I repeat myself. There isn't that much of a game here. We made the game good enough to stay by doing the repeating quests and getting enough goods and coins so that we weren't bored out of our minds. They seem to think that we are figuring out a way around buying diamonds. Actually, all we have all been doing is making the game a teeny tiny bit interesting. When they stopped the quests completely, most of the players stopped playing. The game is impossible without resources. That scared them so they had to give us the quests back, but they don't want us to do them, so they keep messing with them and making them worse and worse.

They are going to hoist themselves on their own petard. They might manage to get the quests away from us, but if they do, they won't have anyone here. Watching paint dry just isn't that much fun.

You can still keep playing for now. If you need coins and supplies just trade your boosted goods back and forth with a friend. I think trading the tier one and tier two goods are your best bet. It is slow and mind numbing, but it keeps the game going and gives you some resources. If they take that away too, I am afraid they will discover that they haven't created a very fun game. So, before they do...happy flipping boosted goods!

And don't forget....level 1 workshops are all you need for that produce advanced tools requirement....and yes...it is absurd that we have to waste needed space on silly little workshops.

I feel like I am under water trying desperately to keep breathing through a straw that gets smaller with each update.

Hang in there everyone. If they really make this game too unplayable, well, they won't have any players and then they may finally see we were right all along. Keep letting them know the issues. Keep speaking up. One day they will hear us. After all, we have truth on our side. The game really is too slow.

When they start to lose people in droves and the money stops coming in. Maybe they will listen. But usually when that happens it's to late.

 

[DeletedUser61]

I play because I like to see the gradual growth of my city

We've had this discussion before, and nobody has any intention of changing their mind. Welcome to the echo chamber.

As far as I'm concerned we're fighting for the soul of Elvenar, so it's well worth the battle. Take a look at

• https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/new-quest-structure.1053/#post-6980
• http://www.mobygames.com/game-group/genre-simulation-city-building

Trying to maximize your EXPENSES, in Elvenar, is just plain crazy.

• Your EARNED Progress is where you are in the Tech Tree
• Your EXPENSES are Required Culture + Required Workers + Relics weighed by the distance to the ring where you acquired the relics.

A well managed project, or city builder,

• Stays on schedule (keeps up with the 24 Knowledge Points per day, as they accumulate)
• And does so for a low overall cost
• As the developers have expressed the concept, the objective is to build a well-balanced city that "thrives on its own."

Maximizing EXPENSES, in a City Builder game such as Elvenar,
would be like someone showing up at a construction site and flouncing around in their evening gown.
They may actually look like a million dollars, but it's neither the time nor the place for their tiara.​

 

[DeletedUser43]

My city has been built for an overall cost of zero dollars, so you can't get any lower than that!

The developers want you to spend a bunch of money on cultural buildings so you get more supplies and coins from your buildings. They don't want you to get supplies or culture from neighborly help. They don't want to fix the neighbor problem because then you wouldn't need your culture buildings so much because of all that neighborly help. They will keep doing things that make you need more culture somehow. You can bet on that. The game will keep getting restructured to force people into buying more stuff to make their cities function. Just look back at every update that has had some "rebalancing". They will keep "rebalancing" things to make sure your city isn't balanced at all.

 

[DeletedUser61]

My city has been built for an overall cost of zero dollars, so you can't get any lower than that!

You're still ENTIRELY misconstruing expenses. $$ and Diamonds have very little to do with the costs of your city or buildings. Cost is a GENERAL term that covers ALL of the resources that are consumed.

EXPENSES are everything that you put into a city, or a construction project. Man hours, material, key/mouse clicks, graph paper time, spreadsheet development, head scratching time, and yes a few diamonds if that's your playing style.

BENEFITS are what you've accomplished. How far you've progressed along your tech tree, plus the level of your Ancient Wonders. Your inventory of goods are also considered an asset but ONLY if you could actually sell everything.

The Game Score indicates how EXPENSIVE your city is, which has very little to do with how much you've accomplished.
Score = Required Culture + Required Population + distance weighted Relics.
EXPENSIVE is NOT a good thing in a city builder.

Now, to be entirely fair, my forum activities are VERY expensive. That counts too; I'm not any sort of purist.
But all of my cities are well-balanced, and they thrive nicely with very little maintenance, and THAT'S the soul of a city builder.

Just muddling through is probably the least expensive way to develop your city. Solve problems when they arise, and don't try to rush things.

CAN you play the game to maximize your Score=Expenses? Of course you can, but don't get all huffy when the developers block you at every turn. This game is about building cities that thrive on their own, even though you're trying to turn it into just another arcade game.

 

[DeletedUser43]

No Kat, I am not misconstruing anything. I am simply ignoring your silliness. I get that you hate that anyone has a high score in this game and you want them all to have low scores and tiny cities. But, not everyone wants to play the same way you do. Yes, you can buy all the population you need by spending real money to get culture buildings that also give you population or you can challenge yourself to keep trying to play this game with only the population you get from houses. You do it your way, I will do it mine. Not everyone has a lot of cash to spend on this game. I get that you do. Great. Good for you. Some folks aren't as lucky as you are.

By the way....you aren't right, you know. I know you think there is only one way to play this game, but some folks LIKE high scores. In fact, I would venture to say that Inno would be dead broke if people didn't compete for the high scores. You may think those rankings are stupid, but they keep people spending.

I am trying to see if you can play this game without having a lot of money...real money. Obviously the devs don't want that. Obviously they want as much money as they can get from each player. Yours is the perfect city for them....you don't like to click so you don't use up real resources and you love to buy all the culture they can sell you. You keep your city tiny and you support all those workshops from store bought buildings. You will never be unhappy in this game because you will love all the roadblocks because they make your style of game play easy. You might try a little empathy once in a while however for the folks who simply can't spend a lot of money on this game.

Obviously the game cannot exist without people spending money on it. I do believe however, that without the players who cannot spend a lot of money, there won't be enough players here to keep the game going at all. I think you need both...those with money and those without. Or maybe you are right. Maybe they do have enough people with money so they don't need the free players. We shall see.

I do know though, that even if you are rich as Midas, no one likes the game constantly changing the rules out from under them. This is supposed to be a non-beta game and yet nearly every update there are "balancing" changes. Go look back at all the updates. Almost none of those balancing changes have ever been in the player's favor. They make the game more and more difficult to play without more and more money each and every update. People feel tricked. Sure, the company has structured the contract so they can do anything they want to the game, but that doesn't mean they should. I think a good company treats its current customers well.

Alternatively, they can burn out all their current customers and just try to bring in new players all the time. I speak for the people who have paid and supported this game from the beginning. You clearly speak for the devs.

 

[DeletedUser627]

.... Your only choices are to go OCD about maintaining a near-perfect fellowship or pay exorbitant prices at the trader.

We've opened a Trading Post for trading outside your own fellowship or neighborhood. There's no incidental trading there at this point, but it's up and running for arranged trades.

For example, our fellowship was contacted by another fellowship whose needs complemented ours, so I'll be joining the Arendyll Trading Post for 24 hours - just enough time to exchange our goods and return. It's very helpful.

 

[DeletedUser61]

You clearly speak for the devs.

That's laughable. I was playing City Builders before InnoGames even existed.
Take a look at http://caesar3.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=ct&f=19,4491,1000,all

 

[DeletedUser43]

So what? White nighters are white nighters. This isn't my first rodeo either.

By the way....you speak all this silliness about not outpacing your KP.....I just did the math.....it will take me two years before I scout all the provinces needed to get the maximum space available now. Two years. So, I would greatly appreciate if you would stop saying that I am scouting too fast. That is a joke. By the time I get those expansions there will be a whole other section that most people will have built up.