New Quest Structure

[DeletedUser627]

After doing some research on the new structure of quests, I wanted to share some of the data. I'm not happy with the changes, but I'll try to be dispassionate. In any case, the data is the most accurate I could find.

The goods and supplies quests have changed drastically. Here's a comparison of the Dwarven level quests currently in play, and in beta testing also. It's an open Google Docs sheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18jcmogjYTnM_Jkmr_3NpBjZbpai9-anjCQb7cbcm6gc/edit?usp=sharing

Look at the side-by-side: Inno has reduced the quest rewards for goods productions by 50 - 85%. This is huge.
As a substitute, they're offering the 24-hour bonus quests with what seems to be a substantial bonus. But the change only benefits you if you're a once-a-day-player. Everyone else will be negatively affected.

If you produce in 3-hour runs, you'll have a drastic hit. For example, at Dwarven level, the only goods quests are for 4000 goods. So, if you don't have 9 or more at full upgrade, you don't even have enough goods to meet the quest. If you're fortunate enough to have the goods, the reward is reduced to 15 -40% of what you've been getting. Personally, this alone will reduce my game by about a million coins per day, not to mention the loss of supplies.

Then there's the question of trading. Good players product boosted goods and trade them for non-boosted goods. Now these trades can't be aligned with quests effectively, because the quest rewards are so small). I'm going to lose half a million daily on legitimate trades.

Up to now, most of the dislike about quest modification has centered around "flipping". And yes, with this latest update, Inno will effectively remove the incentive for any dedicated player to work to get ahead by flipping. But guess what? They incentivized it for casual players! The 24-hour quests are only effective if a player uses it once for every manufactory at the end of the day, so once a day players now need to start flipping if they want to make any progress at all.

The push for 24-hour quests is blatant and makes me curious. Thinking in computer terms...why would a developer discourage avid players, and encourage the most casual players? Is it money or servers? Are the avid players not spending...or do they want more players without increasing server capacity?

Once again, this is a proposed modification which changes the nature of the game. I don't think Inno can change mid-game to penalize frequent players while rewarding casual players. This isn't beta.


P.S. I enjoy playing with members who log in once a day - no insult intended. It's fun for you - and I'd be delighted by the wonderful bonuses being made available to you...were it not that my game is being dismantled.

 

[DeletedUser1061]

I just wish I could have my coins on a once a day cycle so I could then really be once a day. I already moved to once a day about 2 weeks ago for everything else and only log in now to collect my coins and spend my 10 in the tech tree. If they had 24 ticks instead of 10 and had coins I could put on a 24h cycle they need not worry about me logging in but once a day. Maybe they can do those since they really do want us (it was already evident but now is just blatant about it) to be a once a day players.

 

[DeletedUser627]

Dark Alchy...except that, as of today, the rewards for your 24-hour quests have been cut by 90%. First they want you, then they hate on you. Very sorry!

 

[DeletedUser1061]

Dark Alchy...except that, as of today, the rewards for your 24-hour quests have been cut by 90%. First they want you, then they hate on you. Very sorry!

90% cut? Yeah, that is the deal breaker for me. Now a 10% cut I would have accepted as it would have been my max but I am not going to accept a 90% cut because they got greedy.

I wish them well with this game but I can't expect it to survive with these changes.

I just told my 3 fellowships - "I was just told on the forums that my 1d rqs have been reduced by 90% and if this is true I am leaving this game. I barely get by with them but with a 90% cut nothing is holding me as my struggles were already, almost, to a point of making the game not fun but at a 90% cut the game is dead to me."

edit: I just did this on A and OMG, absolutely horrid. I used to make about 250-500 silk and scrolls for a 1d crystal production now I make 50 of each and 50k coins. Not going to work for me. I have now left all fellowships with that message and a fond farewell message. Not playing this game like this and suffering as games are supposed to be fun and I am no masochist.

 

[DeletedUser473]

After doing some research on the new structure of quests, I wanted to share some of the data. I'm not happy with the changes, but I'll try to be dispassionate. In any case, the data is the most accurate I could find..........

I agree with you 100%. It's very difficult at this point. The amount of goods is high, the fighting is to tough, the amount of goods needed to finish a province is extreme, the number of coins and amount of time needed to research a new province is high. The costs of upgrades of some of the new buildings are very high compared to what you get in the upgrade. The greatly reduced repeatable quest rewards have about done it for me too as a last straw. I thought it was more than a 90% change, or seems to be. It takes 4k of elixir when it was 2k (200% increase) AND the reward for the 4k is like a 3rd less for the supplies at least. Oh, but I can upgrade and get more supplies but all of this involves redesigning my city and I really do not like it at all.

I had waited and hoped for something better to come but it just seems like some warped farmville at this point where the only difference is you don't have to annoy your friends on facebook daily. The ancient buildings are just a take away from FOE but will cost a ton more. How is one able to even earn the pieces for it all given the HUGE costs to finish a province? The fighting is so imbalanced I stopped it a long time ago. I had deliberately stopped the province expansions waiting for the last update and the Dwarfs in the hopes that there would be a new character fighting and / or having to defeat armies that have several times more troops than I'm able to put on the field even with me being at the highest levels at the time. It's seriously imbalanced. I would think once a person has done all the available upgrades to troops they should at least be able to kick some butt quickly for a long time and have as big of armies as the enemy. Not the case at all.

 

[DeletedUser1122]

It's not just the side quests that are degraded. My current main quest calls for me to have 5 Holy Codex Buildings with culture of 27.5 per sq. I haven't had them for over two months. I will need 2 expansions to to do this and do nothing else.
The object of the changes? Take us back to watching dust collect? Reminds me of kids playing a game...new rule...you lose
not happy

 

[DeletedUser933]

After doing some research on the new structure of quests, I wanted to share some of the data. I'm not happy with the changes, but I'll try to be dispassionate. In any case, the data is the most accurate I could find.

The goods and supplies quests have changed drastically. Here's a comparison of the Dwarven level quests currently in play, and in beta testing also. It's an open Google Docs sheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18jcmogjYTnM_Jkmr_3NpBjZbpai9-anjCQb7cbcm6gc/edit?usp=sharing

Look at the side-by-side: Inno has reduced the quest rewards for goods productions by 50 - 85%. This is huge.
As a substitute, they're offering the 24-hour bonus quests with what seems to be a substantial bonus. But the change only benefits you if you're a once-a-day-player. Everyone else will be negatively affected.

If you produce in 3-hour runs, you'll have a drastic hit. For example, at Dwarven level, the only goods quests are for 4000 goods. So, if you don't have 9 or more at full upgrade, you don't even have enough goods to meet the quest. If you're fortunate enough to have the goods, the reward is reduced to 15 -40% of what you've been getting. Personally, this alone will reduce my game by about a million coins per day, not to mention the loss of supplies.

Then there's the question of trading. Good players product boosted goods and trade them for non-boosted goods. Now these trades can't be aligned with quests effectively, because the quest rewards are so small). I'm going to lose half a million daily on legitimate trades.

Up to now, most of the dislike about quest modification has centered around "flipping". And yes, with this latest update, Inno will effectively remove the incentive for any dedicated player to work to get ahead by flipping. But guess what? They incentivized it for casual players! The 24-hour quests are only effective if a player uses it once for every manufactory at the end of the day, so once a day players now need to start flipping if they want to make any progress at all.

The push for 24-hour quests is blatant and makes me curious. Thinking in computer terms...why would a developer discourage avid players, and encourage the most casual players? Is it money or servers? Are the avid players not spending...or do they want more players without increasing server capacity?

Once again, this is a proposed modification which changes the nature of the game. I don't think Inno can change mid-game to penalize frequent players while rewarding casual players. This isn't beta.


P.S. I enjoy playing with members who log in once a day - no insult intended. It's fun for you - and I'd be delighted by the wonderful bonuses being made available to you...were it not that my game is being dismantled.

I agree whoever designed the new quest structure has just about destroyed the fun playing this game. Raised quotas, lower rewards, less chance to progress. Making provinces too expensive to attain expansions. That person needs to take responsibility for destroying a fun game.

 

[DeletedUser43]

I tip my hat to bobbipiazza for all the hard work she has done on that spreadsheet and her brilliant analysis! I sort of felt how bad it was intuitively, but numbers don't lie.

After playing a few days with these new horrible bonus quests, I can say I am making 80% fewer goods than before. That means I can't negotiate nearly as much because I don't have the goods to do so. I can't fight because I can't train any troops. All my supplies are for making the 20% of goods I am making and to do a couple of upgrades. No clearing provinces means no expansions. Or maybe one every few months?

Would a mod please come on here and explain to us what is going on? What kind of game do they want us playing? I really don't get it. Please, just tell me so I won't keep finding things to have fun with that get taken away with each update. Obviously Inno has some agenda. They want once a day players? Is that it? Are we all using too much server space?

Sure, this is a city game and you should keep designing your city based on the parameters, but the parameters keep changing. It is like building an ice cream shop in your home town only to be told that your business license has been revoked, but if you want to be a shoe shine that is ok. Only, once you build that shoe shine, the new ordinance comes out that says shoe polish is now illegal. So you sell all you can and turn into a nail salon because those are wanted. But no....now nail polish remover has been banned and now.....well...you get the idea.

Just tell us please, what is going on? Why do they keep ripping the rug out from under us? How often do they want us on here? I don't want to keep beating my head against a brick wall. Let us know and we will adapt. But all these changes keep making my friends go away.

 

[DeletedUser61]

You've already quoted exactly the reasons, as stated in https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/changes-in-declining-quests.3277/

Quests should not be the main way to receive coins and supplies, but they are rather meant to provide guidance through the game, and to teach you how to develop your own economy in the best way possible.

 

[DeletedUser43]

I think you miss the point. Why should they not be the main way to receive coins and supplies? Without them, the game is very, very slow. People didn't like this game when they didn't use quests as the main way to receive coins and supplies. Once they discovered that they could have some fun getting coins and supplies, they started having fun with this game. Then, they relied on those quests to keep having fun...and they did. They had a lot of fun. Now, taking all that away, we are back to a slow game that isn't very much fun. Why would Inno want to produce a game that isn't much fun? Players have quit over this and many are threatening. The game we loved is now gone. Others no longer trust Inno...if they take this away, what will they take away next? Why spend money on a game that keeps being less fun every other week?

Why would any company want to do something that makes its customers distrust it?

We don't trust this game now. We want the game we loved back. We want to trust and we want to play, but we can't now. If they don't want the quests to be the main way to get coins and supplies, they need to increase the number of coins and supplies you do get. We don't have enough coins and supplies to set our goods for 3 hours. Yet, they keep increasing the amounts of goods you need for negotiations. So, how do you think that is going to happen? We can't make goods, yet we keep needing more goods.

They dramatically decreased the amount of supplies you get from quests now. That means that we are all crippled in terms of supplies. You can now upgrade your workshops, but they don't produce enough. We keep scouting more provinces, but no one in them actually plays, so there is no way to get the supply bonus from returning neighborly help.....we don't have neighbors who are giving us help. We have tons of ways to get coins, but hardly any ways to get supplies. Yet, things cost the same (relatively) in coins and supplies. Again....if you can do math, you will know that there is a huge dearth in supplies now. Do the devs even play this game? Do they not realize if you cut supplies by 80-90% we won't have enough supplies?

Or do they think we should all tear down some of our factories and put up workshops so we get more supplies? How is that fair? They harm anyone who built cities based on quests they had all this time? Great....so if we do exactly what they are leading us to, then we won't have many factories...yet, they keep requiring more goods as the tech tree goes on. So, HOW do we do that? How do we produce more goods with fewer factories that we can only set once a day instead of on more productive 3 hour cycles? Tell me that one oh wise Kat?

The only thing left to us all is not to play most of the time. We can come by once a day to set just a few of our factories for a 1 day cycle so we get the 24 hour bonuses (because those are the only ones worth a damn) and not get enough goods to do much of anything. So, maybe once a month or two or three we get an extra expansion where we can put 5/6 ths of a cultural building?

How will anyone have any boosted goods to trade if everyone is using them to buy KP? And how can we buy all the KP needed for the Ancient Wonders that are coming if we don't use our boosted goods to buy them? Over 3000 Knowledge Points for certain things coming in the future.

Maybe you haven't thought through all the problems. Or maybe you don't have as advanced a city and haven't faced these gigantic costs yet. Or maybe you aren't in a high ranked fellowship that depends on each other for tens of thousands of goods from each other each day. But some of us are, and this is crippling us. We are your future.

 

[DeletedUser61]

"City Builder" means something SPECIFIC. To quote from http://www.mobygames.com/game-group/genre-simulation-city-building

City building games usually are identifiable by one or more of the following traits:

• Main gameplay map is the city or town itself.
• The city or town mentioned are usually already owned or may only be developed by the player.
• Any form of opposition usually is located off-map.
• Manual strategic placement of roads, structures or other buildings.
• Manual management of citizen demands.
• Trade and taxation, usually micro economics.
• Upgrading options for structures and buildings.
• Manipulation and exploitation of surrounding resources.

Let's take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City-building_game

A second boost in genre popularity came in 1993 with the release of Caesar, a game which modeled cities in ancient Rome, replacing electricity and mass transit with aqueducts and roads. Subsequent titles in the City Building Series followed, all modeling cities in past civilizations.

I've been playing City Builder games for years and years, including Caesar and several titles that were produced by the group that now owns Tilted Mill.
(I also have two maxed out Elvenar cities and a maxed out Forge of Empires city.)

Further, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construction_and_management_simulation

Economics play a primary role in construction and management simulations, because they allow players to build things while operating within economic constraints. Some games may challenge the player to explore or recognize patterns, but the majority of the game challenges are economic in that they focus upon growth. These games are based in a setting where an economy can be built and managed, usually some kind of community, institution, or empire. The player's role seldom corresponds to a real life activity, since the player is usually more involved in detailed decisions than a real manager or administrator.

And finally, from https://www.innogames.com/en/blog/2014/11/the-awakening-of-a-new-world-innogames-introduces-elvenar/

So, what can players expect? Elvenar is a city-building Strategy-MMO set in an exotic fantasy world surrounded by three principles: building, exploring and fighting. Once there, players are surrounded with fantastic buildings and units in colorful, lush environments. The main task for players in this world is to create a flourishing city as one of two starting races: Elves or Humans.

 

[DeletedUser43]

None of that is relevant to anything I said.

 

[DeletedUser61]

Why should they not be the main way to receive coins and supplies?

The WHY is because InnoGames is trying to branch out, and wants to compete in the CITY BUILDER market.

"City Builder" ALREADY means something specific, as I indicated, even though you might prefer otherwise.

 

[DeletedUser43]

See my comment above.

 

[DeletedUser61]

Which part of

We have found that skipping quests leads to massive problems in the game's behavior and its balance.

don't you understand?

 

[DeletedUser1061]

Which part of
"We have found that skipping quests leads to massive problems in the game's behavior and its balance."
don't you understand?

BobbyKitty: That is atypical of a lot of games and another thing devs, and players, like to say is you have to be fluid and go with the waves. If something changes you change with it but what Inno wants from this game, and its players, I think most of the players do not want. Time will tell but if they keep it like this I can see a mass exodus and if it gets any worse I can see the game filled with the void and few "fluid" players who realize once a day and taking 3 months to advance is what the devs want.

I played a few games where the dev team decided to do stuff like this because they were running out of ideas and was tired of making game expansions. It blew chunks and I left them when it was obvious the cash shop was your only avenue. I would not be surprised if coming soon will be, regardless if a mod or even a dev says otherwise because times change, supplies, and coins plus a few other things, for diamonds. This happen in one of the games I am talking about and I knew it was time to go yet I had spent only about 150-175 dollars it was a sore that will never heal so I mistrust any F2P game even if it has subscriptions too because the lure of money is too strong. It is what I used to call cash shop driven content and I have never liked playing any game like that but it was so obvious. Trust me "you ain't seen nothin' yet" as game companies create a shortage then they will gladly fill it later, down the road, for rl $$$.

 

[DeletedUser828]

I don't know how one could possibly rely strictly upon the quests for coins and supplies
If that were solely the case there would be no need for housing or work shops. I honestly don't see how one can play and bank on the majority of the quest rewards to fund their city.

 

[DeletedUser594]

I don't know how one could possibly rely strictly upon the quests for coins and supplies

I don't either but after looking through the top ten I see several with either no warehouses or less than five. I had seven and jumped to nine recently and I am continuously upgrading. I don't understand how anyone can run 8 or more magical goods factories while barely producing supply. That's a design flaw and needed correction. The devs seem to be swinging back and forth trying to placate the players and trying to keep the integrity of a proper city builder. The previous change to quests when we were getting a lot of goods every/24 hour cycle overshot the mark and was too generous. I was getting 1500 Marble and Plank while my LvL 15 factory was generating 1100 for the same period. I felt ok with them scaling it back some but I think the cut it a bit lower than necessary,
I hadn't even noticed the change in supply rewards because ----I get my supply by building an appropriate number of factories to support the city structures I desire--- I'm unsure what it is players expect really. This is the core aspect of the game- planning and building within the constraints while you push the boundaries. Would players prefer if Inno just unlocked limitless expansions with infinite coin/supply and goods so that you can just keep building out in every direction?
And Alchy--did you quit our guild so you could move into the forums permanently or what?

 

[DeletedUser1061]

...and Alchy--did you quit our guild so you could move into the forums permanently or what?

I quit the game until Inno gets their head on right so I am following the forums, as I said before, very closely and when my 30 days is up (when I have no city) I am gone for good. No skin off my teeth either way and I speak from experience about these things and I am here to call out the shills and the rose colored glasses wearers.

Numbers do not lie and that spreadsheet shows Inno jumped the shark with this move but they are extremely greedy and the quests were hurting their profits. As I also said previously, on another thread, why pay rl money to get out of a hole that Inno created when you can do a few quests? Most people wouldn't and Inno's greedy little hearts swung the pendulum back hard in the other direction. Reminds me of Turbine and one of their games where the pendulum was always swinging from the devs and it either went too far right or too far left but was never ever in the middle and if it accidentally ended up in the middle a hotfix would swing it far to the right (most times) or back too far to the left. They never got it right and I am seeing this from Inno. Different game same developer mentality and it had a cash shop so that mindset was there.

 

[DeletedUser43]

I get my supply by building an appropriate number of factories to support the city structures I desire--- I'm unsure what it is players expect really.

Just wait. You will find out what I am talking about. When you need 33,000 tier 3 goods to get through a province. When you realize that fighting is simply not going to work and negotiating is the only way to get through a province. When you need 4200 tier 3 goods to get through a tech. When you need 3300 KP to get through the Advanced Wonders that is coming. No, that is not a typo. 3300.

I play in the beta game and I play in the top fellowship here. I know how many goods we have all been using and I know how many we now have. Things will still get done, but they will get done a lot slower. Things that took 3 weeks will now take 6 months. Unless you pay.

I guess this is changing to a model where only pay players can compete. And the players who have already paid a lot of money will have to keep paying a whole lot more if they want to keep competing. And once you have paid a whole more you will have to pay a whole lot more than that....etc etc. Too bad.

It was so much fun before.