Questions About Net Zero KP Swap Method

[Killy-]

FSO has the rules stated up front: Enough KP to finish it in 24 hours, little to no KP in it now (preferably none so snippers aren't tempted). Hmmm.... sounds very familiar. Of course, in an FSO it's more important to do it quickly to avoid snipers, and that's a downside to the FSO. Not much of one though since it would take a lot of poaching to bump everyone enough they got no profit. The contributors get the profit, don't forget.

What do people do in FSO with their KPs from the tournament? Lets say I have 250 Kps from the tournament and I put them in my wonder, then it might get more attractive for snipers. But if I don't have all the KPs for the whole wonder than that is all I can do with them or am I missing some part about it?

 

[Dew Spinner]

Now let's see. If you add all the KP taken in, yeah, you are right. But the poster gets a 20% KP reduction and that's, in my book, profit. So okay, here we're just quibbling over if getting a 20% discount because others put in that 20% for you (and got it back from the chests) is "profit" or not.

On the other hand, the rules about 50% done and you have finish it in so many hours is there for a reason -- because maybe somebody thought, "gee, I could put in all my AW's and get 20% off right now then, later, at my own pace, I'll finish them." Rules are almost always suggested because somebody takes advantage of an "opportunity" to benefit themselves. And of course, if you have a rule it's almost always in response to somebody ignoring "don't be a dick."

FSO has the rules stated up front: Enough KP to finish it in 24 hours, little to no KP in it now (preferably none so snippers aren't tempted). Hmmm.... sounds very familiar. Of course, in an FSO it's more important to do it quickly to avoid snipers, and that's a downside to the FSO. Not much of one though since it would take a lot of poaching to bump everyone enough they got no profit. The contributors get the profit, don't forget.

@Dew Spinner See above for your answer to sniping. If we put little or no KP in before we are ready, little to no sniping will occur. Hence the need to finish it quickly.

AJ

If no rules were needed then there would never be a need for rules in any FS. Almost every FS has rules of some sort and that is because there are too many "richards" out there! LOL I am not in a FS that does NetZero but I can definitely see the benefits and one member of my FS is trying to get the NetZero going but the higher chapter players don't seem too keen on it...Hmmm, I wonder why? Maybe it cuts into their profit margin too much and making equal profit among all FS members is something they are uncomfortable with. My 7th ranked FS wants us small fish to grow our score but cuts out NetZero as a way to substantially grow the small fish cities because I assume they like all the goodies to themselves. There is absolutely no way lower chapter cities can compete on KP Swap threads, if you do place 1st on the highest chest, someone jumps you, if you try to place at a lower chest, someone jumps you. So, a word to all the Archmages out there...If you want your younger cities to grow...Let The Small Fish Eat Too! I only do self leveling because otherwise I would lose levleing KP to being jumped all the time, I know self leveling is the worst case senario but at least every KP I earn isn't wasted by being jumped.

 

[ajqtrz]

What do people do in FSO with their KPs from the tournament? Lets say I have 250 Kps from the tournament and I put them in my wonder, then it might get more attractive for snipers. But if I don't have all the KPs for the whole wonder than that is all I can do with them or am I missing some part about it?

Normally the KP you earn from tournaments is spent on research. On the other hand, you can Sometimes a person will have an AW they are working on and put it in there and issue an SO (different from an FSO in that you can finish it when you want and nobody has to put any particular amount in and a few other things. We have a rule that you have to be within 100 of finishing and most of the time it's finished in a few hours.) We do those too. But for FSO you usually save the KP Instants you get from putting KP in somebody's FSO. Since you are putting a lot less into the chest than the chest is paying you are profiting greatly. 5-7 times what you put in you get out. If you save it and put it on your own AW you can practically pay for it. Think about it. You grab the first chest for 7 and get 40 back. 33KP to the good. Lather, rinse, repeat a few times and the KP instants you have get you a long way toward your upgrade.

If no rules were needed then there would never be a need for rules in any FS. Almost every FS has rules of some sort and that is because there are too many "richards" out there! LOL I am not in a FS that does NetZero but I can definitely see the benefits and one member of my FS is trying to get the NetZero going but the higher chapter players don't seem too keen on it...Hmmm, I wonder why? Maybe it cuts into their profit margin too much and making equal profit among all FS members is something they are uncomfortable with. My 7th ranked FS wants us small fish to grow our score but cuts out NetZero as a way to substantially grow the small fish cities because I assume they like all the goodies to themselves. There is absolutely no way lower chapter cities can compete on KP Swap threads, if you do place 1st on the highest chest, someone jumps you, if you try to place at a lower chest, someone jumps you. So, a word to all the Archmages out there...If you want your younger cities to grow...Let The Small Fish Eat Too! I only do self leveling because otherwise I would lose levleing KP to being jumped all the time, I know self leveling is the worst case senario but at least every KP I earn isn't wasted by being jumped.

FSO's are a way for you to pass KP instants to smaller players because the contributor get the profit directly in KP instants. And the cost is very, very small. The owner pays for most of that with a higher AW costs but that's the point. They are donating to other players. One big advantage is that even players so small they don't have an AW can participate. If the do it right they can then upgrade their first AW in minutes, sometimes several upgrades, depending on how active the larger players have been in issuing FSO"s. No need to wait until they have an AW to profit. To avoid outside fellowship people from grabbing chests we keep the AW empty until we have enough KP instants to finish it even if nobody grabbed a chest.

AJ

 

[SoggyShorts]

@SoggyShorts ,
For once I was actually agree'n with you and I still get grief for playing
Devil's Advocate and bringing up logical... cons ...

There are more than just what I and @ajqtrz have said that could
be potential probs, but I guess you're "don't be a richard" rule only
applies in your FS, cause you sure don't use that same sound judgement here.

Sigh. You really need to stop making/taking things personally. You brought up a possible con, we explained why it isn't an issue. That's not an attack on your person.
By all means, please list any other potential downsides and we will address each one. It's entirely possible that you may discover one which actually is a problem and we could even come up with a solution together.

 

[Valtitude]

I am curious how the Net Zero KP swap method works. I think I have e.g. seen @SoggyShorts mention it?

As I understand it then you mostly put KP in your own wonders and then you ask your fellows to donate KP corresponding to the values of the chests. So if there are 3 chests worth 15, 10 and 5 KP then you ask 3 fellows to donate 15, 10 and 5 KP. So the owner of the wonder gets all the KP in the chests, and the fellows get the runes (and thereby mainly donate to help the owner as most will just get the same amount of KP back that they donate).

I think I can see that this would work great in the ideal case, but I have a lot of questions. I think I know the answers to some of them, but would like to check if I have understood it correctly!

1. When do you ask fellows to donate KP? I assume it should be shortly before you complete it yourself: as the only reward for the fellows are the runes, so they should get their KP back fast.

2. Do you post a new thread for each wonder or do you post all wonders in the same thread?

3. How much info do you list in the message? Do you list all the rewards such that everyone can see which chests there are?

4. I assume fellows should reply to the message that they will donate before they donate to avoid double donations where 2 members donate at the same time?

5. What do you do when 2 members donate at the same time and 1 member thereby donates more than they get back? Does the owner then donate to that members wonder? But then the owner needs to donate the difference plus the value of the chest that the owner gets back?

6. If a stranger jumps in and bumps members then I guess the owner needs to compensate the bumped members as described in 5?

7. If strangers have already donated to the wonder do you then just bump them down until they don't earn KP (but maybe runes)? Or do you try to bump them further down? I guess that would be cumbersome if the owner then needs to compensate those members?

8. If a member has donated less than a chest is worth (e.g. 3 KP), what do you then do? Do you ask that member to donate more (e.g. 2 KP), or do you just bump that member, or does the owner loose 2 KP if that member doesn't donate more?

9. What do you do if there are less KP left in the wonder than the chests are worth?

10. Is it cumbersome to move from KP Swap Threads/Shout Outs to Net Zero?

11. Any other problems I have not thought of?

Months after The Fairy's original post, tracking of AW KP evidently done via spreadsheet, yes?

Who runs the spreadsheet and thus AW Net Zero? One or more FS members or entire FS?

Spreadsheet creator in my FS wants to automate it with game message system. I say not likely, due to Inno's policies about apps affecting game play, but am asking anyway.

 

[ajqtrz]

@Valtitude The Net0 program works well as long as people are honest and willing to do their own "administration." The only reason, to my knowledge, you would need a spreadsheet is to double check on if some people are getting more out of it than they are putting in -- which is pretty much impossible if everybody just puts in the amounts they are supposed to put in -- which is the amount of the chest they are "purchasing," so to speak. Notifying people of what chest you are going to take may be part of it and if people fail to do that then some problems could occur...like two people trying to take the same chest. In that case one will be bumped down and lose some KP. There are other potential problems as well. But, if it works, it probably works very well since nobody putting KP in is doing so for profit, and breaks even on each AW.

If you've read this far you know we, in my fs, use FSO and SO's. FSO's profit the contributors almost entirely and are sort of a "gift" on the part of the AW owner. The gift is often returned in a few days when somebody else issues and FSO. The chances of "losing" anything are extremely low if people follow the three rules: 1) Save up the KP Instants to build it completely and put nothing on it until you are ready; 2) Issue the FSO in chat or msg system ("FSO: Goldyn Abyss 1KP only" is what I say when I want to upgrade my GA. It simply means the first 7 people to give 1KP will get the chests and the profit from those chests. I'll get 7kp discount -- not much for me, but a whole lot more profitable than any other method. Rule 3: finish ASAP -- within 24 hours at least. So far no claim jumpers from outside the fs have come, but if they did ... the contributors would lose 1KP of profit each and the owner would gain whatever claim jumper put in. In other words, it's still, very, very profitable.

Problems with all types of AW sharing are potential. The idea of Net0, I believe, was to make it fool proof because nobody would claim jump for the value of the KP. A 40KP chest gives 40KP and why put in 41? -- unless you need the rune, which is one of the potential problems for Net0. I doubt it happens very often that they have that problem, but it could.

Thus, it seems to me that if you are using a spreadsheet to track Net0, you may be doing too much. It should, as I understand it, be pretty much self-administering.

Just some thoughts off the top of my head.

AJ

 

[samidodamage]

Months after The Fairy's original post, tracking of AW KP evidently done via spreadsheet, yes?

There is no tracking of AW KP in NetZero. It's a straight up 1:1 swap: if a chest gives you 20kp, you're buying that chest for 20kp. If a chest gives you 5kp, you're buying it for 5kp. Thus the name NetZero. The only 'extras' you get from chests is runes. In practice, it works much smoother than I anticipated (in the one FS that's using it). There were a few hiccups as we all learned it.
There's one thread where you copy/paste the preceding msg with the running list of AW's, then add yours to that list. If you take the last chest in one of those AW's, you do the same copy/paste, but move the AW you completed to the bottom and mark it DONE. Then, that AW doesn't get copied the next time someone comes in and adds to the string (either with a new AW or info on a completed AW). Yes, there are still mistakes, though they are rare after a few months now of using the system:
2 players contribute at the same time, someone clicks too quickly and adds more kp than needed; someone doesn't click enough on the 5kp instants they're using and ends up 5kp short. The owner of the AW is responsible for checking the accuracy of the chests and the amounts contributed when the AW is marked Done. They post any discrepancies in the Admin thread and it gets taken care of with minimal fuss. I personally also use the Admin thread if I notice I was too click happy and put in 1-2kp extra in an AW to alert the person I don't need them to worry about paying that back, though everyone in the swap is agreeable to paying back any kp they get that is over the cost of a chest.
I find it much easier to use than the old spreadsheet system that FS had in place. My other FS does swaps through individual swap threads. I find NetZero much easier than typing in a thread, make the donation, repeat for the next amount, etc. I also think it's easier for smaller cities to gain chests in the NetZero system. The swap threads are dominated by larger cities who end up taking the top chests way more often over time. Usually they don't need the extra runes, but smaller cities may. They're not intentionally taking chests, it's just that if they're tech locked and have a larger supply of kp than a small city (from bldgs, more tourney provinces to do, etc) they end up putting more into AW's. In a NetZero, if someone is looking for specific runes, they can just post a msg in the Admin thread. Then, the member upgrading the AW they need lets them know before putting it in the AW thread and they go in and take the first chest, getting the max runes available. Once posted in the AW thread, it moves along like normal.

 

[Valtitude]

i feel like i have a life back now that i no longer have to use any wonder society spreadsheet....I had three on the go, several wonder sheet managers dedicating time too! With net0, I have leveled 12 wonders since July 1, where the society style would hold me back based on over contributions of others, i am no longer having to wait for my turn! Net0 is the superior system over all others

You're not

There is no tracking of AW KP in NetZero. It's a straight up 1:1 swap: if a chest gives you 20kp, you're buying that chest for 20kp. If a chest gives you 5kp, you're buying it for 5kp. Thus the name NetZero. The only 'extras' you get from chests is runes. In practice, it works much smoother than I anticipated (in the one FS that's using it). There were a few hiccups as we all learned it.
There's one thread where you copy/paste the preceding msg with the running list of AW's, then add yours to that list. If you take the last chest in one of those AW's, you do the same copy/paste, but move the AW you completed to the bottom and mark it DONE. Then, that AW doesn't get copied the next time someone comes in and adds to the string (either with a new AW or info on a completed AW). Yes, there are still mistakes, though they are rare after a few months now of using the system:
2 players contribute at the same time, someone clicks too quickly and adds more kp than needed; someone doesn't click enough on the 5kp instants they're using and ends up 5kp short. The owner of the AW is responsible for checking the accuracy of the chests and the amounts contributed when the AW is marked Done. They post any discrepancies in the Admin thread and it gets taken care of with minimal fuss. I personally also use the Admin thread if I notice I was too click happy and put in 1-2kp extra in an AW to alert the person I don't need them to worry about paying that back, though everyone in the swap is agreeable to paying back any kp they get that is over the cost of a chest.
I find it much easier to use than the old spreadsheet system that FS had in place. My other FS does swaps through individual swap threads. I find NetZero much easier than typing in a thread, make the donation, repeat for the next amount, etc. I also think it's easier for smaller cities to gain chests in the NetZero system. The swap threads are dominated by larger cities who end up taking the top chests way more often over time. Usually they don't need the extra runes, but smaller cities may. They're not intentionally taking chests, it's just that if they're tech locked and have a larger supply of kp than a small city (from bldgs, more tourney provinces to do, etc) they end up putting more into AW's. In a NetZero, if someone is looking for specific runes, they can just post a msg in the Admin thread. Then, the member upgrading the AW they need lets them know before putting it in the AW thread and they go in and take the first chest, getting the max runes available. Once posted in the AW thread, it moves along like normal.

@Ariadne43

 

[samidodamage]

@Valtitude
Tomatoe is the AM of my FS I described where we use the NetZero system.

 

[Valtitude]

Have been reading about Net0 since discovering it in threads that you commented in, last fall. Didn't think Net0 used a spreadsheet, but evidently some FSs use a buggy Wonder Society Net0 template from Elven Gems. Ariadme43 is person in our FS attempting to work that spreadsheet. You'll see her posts regarding that template.
Thank you for sharing information. Much appreciated.

 

[The Fairy]

Just to follow up on my original questions. I am now happily using NetZero in 2 fs so far, and love it! I find it so much easier than the kp threads that I use elsewhere. And we don't have any need for spreadsheets!

 

[Yogi Dave]

Have been reading about Net0 since discovering it in threads that you commented in, last fall. Didn't think Net0 used a spreadsheet, but evidently some FSs use a buggy Wonder Society Net0 template from Elven Gems. Ariadme43 is person in our FS attempting to work that spreadsheet. You'll see her posts regarding that template.

The Elven Gems WS is not a net0 program. It's a balance based system which has to maintain the history of contributions and AWs completed. My FS used it for a couple of years. The AM even fixed a couple of bugs in it. There are slightly simpler versions of the balance system Wonder programs. They all require a good bit of the administrator's time, usually daily others to record contributions made. We now use a net0 program which places any work on the owner and contributors of the AW. It seems nicer since it's a cooperative method between individuals and also reduces the owner's cost to 80% of the cost and contributors neither gain nor lose KP. Also, it doesn't require keeping any history.

And we don't have any need for spreadsheets!

My FS uses a simple SS to aid the net0 program, but it isn't necessary. We think the SS has a few advantages over just using an in-game message to say you have an AW near ready for completion. Even if we didn't use a SS, I think it's far superior to the balance-based ones, the message threads, and the shout-out method.

I haven't been following this thread and don't want to read the 7 proceeding pages, so will assume the net0 concept has been well explained and that some people have explained their SS, giving why they use it and how it works. I did just read a bit from the beginning of the thread and saw where @TomatoeHu said she got her life back moving from a balance-based system. Yes, it's much nicer when everybody helps their FS members, and the administrators can breathe, kick off their shoes and eat cake, like her event quest list always suggest doing.

 

[Valtitude]

Just to follow up on my original questions. I am now happily using NetZero in 2 fs so far, and love it! I find it so much easier than the kp threads that I use elsewhere. And we don't have any need for spreadsheets!

@Ariadne43 Based on our conversation, you may find last page of this thread interesting.