Sentient Goods are unbalanced

[michmarc]

The headache with Sentients is that:
1) They decay, which means nobody can have large stockpiles of them to act as a "banker" for facilitating trades
2) They require being in Ch12 in order to make so the number of players that can make them is relatively small.

Inno tried to 'fix' number 2 by letting you trade across the entire server (instead of just your neighborhood or FS) but that also reveals any imbalance across the entire world.

What would fix the problem is if you could somehow trade with anyone and not just the Ch12+ people. If there was some way that lower-levelled people could somehow 'facilitate' a sentient trade. Maybe have a sentient trade (like Platinum --> Moonstone) show up as a normal good trade (Steel --> Marble) for those that are not yet in Ch12. Anyone can pick up the trade. Sentient trading could even be restricted to neighborhoods and fellowships.

I worry about the rumors of a third tier of boosted good and how incredibly scarce it will be if only Ch18+ people can trade in that good.

 

[able99]

This imbalance has always been a problem. I believe the parasite traders exploit the imbalance and makes the problem worse. They are so annoying to see, just like unwanted spam phone calls. If only there was a way to block those trades, maybe they will eventually disappear.

 

[Palavyn]

This imbalance has always been a problem. I believe the parasite traders exploit the imbalance and makes the problem worse. They are so annoying to see, just like unwanted spam phone calls. If only there was a way to block those trades, maybe they will eventually disappear.

I don't think it's parasite traders. It's supply and demand which is way off. Sentient goods are annoying enough without being the one locked into only being able to produce the goods that are literally never in decent demand.

 

[StarLoad]

It is parasite trading that takes every 2 star and above trade and reposts trades at 75-80% and go on with their day. Just look at the main ones and then look at their cities and not NONE of the Sentient Good MFG. This means they are simply taking and using and not adding to. This is a parasite plain and simple.

 

[Ashrem]

I don't think it's parasite traders. It's supply and demand which is way off. Sentient goods are annoying enough without being the one locked into only being able to produce the goods that are literally never in decent demand.

Supply being off allows the parasites to function, but it doesn't make them not parasites.

It is the idiosyncrasies of the interface (slow and with sometimes random shifts) which causes people to accept trades they normally would refuse to touch. Rearranging every trade listed because I just ran too low on something to accept a trade six pages above is rage inducing and makes it easy to exploit people's impatience with the slowness of the interface.

 

[ajqtrz]

As Starship Valiant- I do think it's about time we engaged in inter-world transport. It does appear there are some real trading opportunities there. I'll have to speak to the powers at Starfleet and see... ("yuk, yuk?" Is that better?)

In any case, any time you hear the idea of "fair" bantered around, in this context it seems to be about their being an equal supply of everything which would translate into a balanced market. It is natural and somewhat unpredictable for resources to show fluctuations in supply. Some of it is in the constantly changing game mechanics, and some of it is just the variances of who quits and who starts, and how much they contribute of their boosted resources. I doubt there is anything the devs can do about it unless they can pinpoint the effect a particular game mechanic is having on the supply of one thing or another. The closest to that would be, I think, the effect the moonstone set is having on, on K, scrolls, gum and bitsmuth. Other than that, "fair" is whatever you can get somebody to give you for whatever it is you are selling. All market transactions are fair unless somebody is holding a gun to your head exactly because what you are getting out of them is, in it's totality, what you are willing to take for whatever you offer in exchange. It's not just the value of the goods in comparison with other goods, but also having the goods at a particular time and place in our game play.

AJ

 

[Ashrem]

All market transactions are fair unless somebody is holding a gun to your head exactly because what you are getting out of them is, in it's totality, what you are willing to take for whatever you offer in exchange

When you have a free ability to accept or reject offers, that is the case. Having the contract offers jump around whenever you touch one (such that the one you just irrevocably signed is not the one you intended to sign a fraction of a second earlier and which was under your pen when you started lowering it) is not natural in any way.

 

[StarLoad]

Not to split hairs but the fact that a parasite can take advantage of the imbalance is where the issue is not if you are forced to take a trade or take one in error. If the trades were all based on a even distribution of goods then I would be able to go into the trader and select goods that I need and leave what I want. Today I need shrooms and I go into the trader and have this as a choice. And mind you this is almost every time I go in.

So as a player and I need the shrooms for oh lets say to finish the spire... I either wait till a FS member can trade them or Feed a parasite.
I wont feed the parasites

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Not to split hairs but the fact that a parasite can take advantage of the imbalance is where the issue is not if you are forced to take a trade or take one in error. If the trades were all based on a even distribution of goods then I would be able to go into the trader and select goods that I need and leave what I want. Today I need shrooms and I go into the trader and have this as a choice. And mind you this is almost every time I go in.
View attachment 8349

So as a player and I need the shrooms for oh lets say to finish the spire... I either wait till a FS member can trade them or Feed a parasite.
I wont feed the parasites

Looks like you are on Arendyll also, as I know exactly who those players are and I hate seeing their BS trades too. The only one in your screen shot who I think is alright is the one at the very bottom because it is a cross-tier trade that is a little better than 2:1. Coming from the old system, where a 2-star trade was 4:1, I have no problem with her trades. But those same-tier trades and that are 1-star or 0-star, those are bad people.

 

[StarLoad]

Looks like you are on Arendyll also, as I know exactly who those players are and I hate seeing their BS trades too. The only one in your screen shot who I think is alright is the one at the very bottom because it is a cross-tier trade that is a little better than 2:1. Coming from the old system, where a 2-star trade was 4:1, I have no problem with her trades. But those same-tier trades and that are 1-star or 0-star, those are bad people.

Every trade is zero or one star and yes that player is producing Sentient goods but its still a 1 star trade

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Every trade is zero or one star and yes that player is producing Sentient goods but its still a 1 star trade

Seriously? You have been around this game for a l long time now and know what the old trade system was like. That trade in the old system would have been a very good 3-star trade and the change in the ratios did not suddenly make it a horrible trade just because it is now called a 1-star trade. I would take that all day long versus the old 2-star cross-tier trade value of 4:1. Or would you take that old version of 10k shrooms for 40k ink just because the game called it 2-star? Yes, 1-star that is same tier is horrible. 1-star in cross-tier can still be a good value if you look at the actual numbers.

 

[Ashrem]

That trade in the old system would have been a very good 3-star trade

No, it wouldn't. It would have been "labelled" a good trade, but it still would have been a bad trade, which is why players spent four years lobbying for them to change it. It was predatory before and it is predatory now.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

No, it wouldn't. It would have been "labelled" a good trade, but it still would have been a bad trade, which is why players spent four years lobbying for them to change it. It was predatory before and it is predatory now.

A change I still think would have been fine at 1:2:4 and not the 1:1.5:2.25 that they went with. So I am perfectly good with 1:2 if it is for a good I need.

 

[StarLoad]

Seriously? You have been around this game for a l long time now and know what the old trade system was like. That trade in the old system would have been a very good 3-star trade and the change in the ratios did not suddenly make it a horrible trade just because it is now called a 1-star trade. I would take that all day long versus the old 2-star cross-tier trade value of 4:1. Or would you take that old version of 10k shrooms for 40k ink just because the game called it 2-star? Yes, 1-star that is same tier is horrible. 1-star in cross-tier can still be a good value if you look at the actual numbers.

I was identifying that all the trades were zero or one and the player you were speaking of I clearly stated was not a parasite as they are making Sentient goods. I wont trade with the parasites and yes some cross tier trades are fine. But some are just food for the parasites

 

[NightshadeCS]

There is a player on Arendyll who routinely grabs up all of my Sentient trades (which I offer at 3 star to get them taken quickly), and then posts trades at one star. And not simply a hundred or so more. No, it's a full 15% profit. Add that to my 10% loss, and he is really gouging everyone.

I try to announce to my fellowship when I am posting trades, so they can grab any that they remotely like.

It would be worth it to me to set up some private trading partners who want what I have and vice versa. We could arrange a time to post trades and snap each others' up before the greedy buggers can get their paws on them. I just haven't taken the time to reach out to any likely candidates.

 

[StarLoad]

There is a player on Arendyll who routinely grabs up all of my Sentient trades (which I offer at 3 star to get them taken quickly), and then posts trades at one star. And not simply a hundred or so more. No, it's a full 15% profit. Add that to my 10% loss, and he is really gouging everyone.

I bet I know that players name ...

 

[Lelanya]

You go girl!! I have done the same with friends

 

[ajqtrz]

Not to split hairs but the fact that a parasite can take advantage of the imbalance is where the issue is not if you are forced to take a trade or take one in error. If the trades were all based on a even distribution of goods then I would be able to go into the trader and select goods that I need and leave what I want. Today I need shrooms and I go into the trader and have this as a choice. And mind you this is almost every time I go in.
View attachment 8349

So as a player and I need the shrooms for oh lets say to finish the spire... I either wait till a FS member can trade them or Feed a parasite.
I wont feed the parasites

What if the star didn't show? I mean if there was no "star system" of rating? How would you, then, determine if the trade was "fair" or "gouging" or "parasitical?"

I ask because isn't it you letting the system tell you if it's a good trade or a bad one? What makes a good trade good, and a bad trade bad? If I have two million soap and am desperate to get 32000 more shrooms, I'd rate that the top trade at 4 stars! In other words, why let the devs tell us what is fair and what is not? We are adults for the most part. Do we really need to be told what's fair?

I've posted elsewhere how the whole star system taxes the game and makes it more expensive to run and less profitable. My solution is to get rid of the star system and let "market forces" prevail. In the long run I'll be the one who determines if the trade is fair to me. Unless they hold a gun to my head I'm free to do my own evaluation. Yes, I might have to page through a lot of "unfair" trades, but right now, on K, I'm paging through pages and pates of scrolls offered at large discounts, none of which I want because none of them are "fair" from my perspective. It's pages of "unfair" either way so why not let the players choose what is "fair."

AJ

 

[Ashrem]

What if the star didn't show? I mean if there was no "star system" of rating? How would you, then, determine if the trade was "fair" or "gouging" or "parasitical?"

Is that supposed to be a real argument? Are you asserting that in the absence of a simple marker players would be incapable of figuring out which trades consistently take more than they give? That they are less able to decide for themselves if they accept the value in a trade because it has a marker to indicate relative return on investment? Because I would assert that extensive studies on trade between individuals, and the existence of movements aimed at acknowledging the inherent flaws in current wealth distribution, show that human beings are generally competent at figuring out what isn't fair whether or not someone else calls their attention to it.

Having indicators to remove some of the effort required to calculate the actual value of trades is not what decides whether they are fair, it is a tool to remove some more-work-less-fun from a game.

 

[shimmerfly]

How would you, then, determine if the trade was "fair" or "gouging" or "parasitical?"

Because I'm not stupid?!
There are 3 people in my trader who also take advantage of people, as @NightshadeCS and @Ed1960 posted, who continually do the same. It is more than parasitical. It is wrong. We're not talking world economy/market but fairness in a game.