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    Your Elvenar Team

Show Spire Scores for FS Members after Spire has Finished

Show Spire Scores for FS Members after Spire has Finished

  • In Favor

    Votes: 81 93.1%
  • Not in Favor

    Votes: 6 6.9%

  • Total voters
    87
  • Poll closed .

Lelanya

Scroll-Keeper
@Gkyr
It's when recruiting players that this information is relevant. I have received letters from folks who've told me that they finished 2 levels. And I think, oh defeated frog boss, but they really mean halfway up Gateway. :rolleyes: It takes weeks to encourage them to leave.
 

Gladiola

Well-Known Member
@Lelanya When one is first playing the Spire, the distinction between "gate" as in the places where you stop for timers and "Gateway" as the first level of the Spire is a little hard to grasp. (Especially if you haven't visited the Laboratory yet.) Maybe asking about the frog boss would help?
 

Gkyr

Chef
Also, many AMs play on multiple servers, so recording at the last second on 3-4 cities is ridiculous.
SS: you just hit at the main reason why adding this function to Elvenar is counterproductive.
On 3 occasions I have served in the FS run by AMs "playing in 9 worlds" (to quote one of them). I have found the FSs to be poorly run with trade balancing delayed by as much as a day because they were not there to make sure their lieutenants were covering their lapses. Also, they were unable to monitor the performance (necessary to do in all ways - not just a Tourney score and a putative Spire score) of their recent admits, which lead me to ask myself, "why do these AMs take on the number of FS up until they are overwhelmed? (The Peter Principle)."
This metric would encourage this behavior.

Why are we agreeing that having our gaming monitored in yet another metric is better than nurturing good Mageship? Is it so ridiculous to expect an AM to assign a new player to one of her lieutenants, saying, "let me know how this one (or these two) finish up the Spire", and perhaps repeating this for a second or third FS. Doesn't this establish a good chain of oversight? Isn't this expert level of leadership more desirable than establishing yet another readout?
This.

"You must at a minimum defeat the frog boss at the top of the second floor every week"
This shows that you know (Much Better than I do) that good leadership is more a function of established relationships, plus a certain talent in selecting compatible players plus encouragement and support, whereas playing gotcha with numbers one is trying to play catch-up with ones past decisions; one is not leading the FS in this way but rather second-guessing themselves.
 
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Kekune

Well-Known Member
I have served in the FS run by AMs "playing in 9 worlds"
they were unable to monitor the performance (necessary to do in all ways - not just a Tourney score and a putative Spire score)
It's interesting to me that you agree monitoring is important, but oppose easy access to information that helps with that.

I'm only active on one world, and it's still not feasible (and certainly no fun) to try to stake out that bar at the very end of the spire every week to know what happened. It's not that I (or the rest of our mage team) am overextended, it's just a tedious and annoying task.

People who overextend themselves in game worlds do so for a lot of reasons. I'd say it's chiefly a matter of playstyle and, as you point out, not really knowing how to run a group effectively. Having more information at their fingertips doesn't seem likely to change that, but it does hurt the rest of us.

playing gotcha with numbers one is trying to play catch-up with ones past decisions; one is not leading the FS in this way but rather second-guessing themselves.
I'm certainly not playing "gotcha" with a week's worth of numbers. But consistency is important. If a couple of people are out of step with the rest of the group, a good AM should do something with that information. If the commitment when you admit someone is "you must finish the frog boss" then it would REALLY help to know if they're honoring that commitment.
 

DeletedUser27062

Guest
SS: you just hit at the main reason why adding this function to Elvenar is counterproductive.
On 3 occasions I have served in the FS run by AMs "playing in 9 worlds" (to quote one of them). I have found the FSs to be poorly run with trade balancing delayed by as much as a day because they were not there to make sure their lieutenants were covering their lapses. Also, they were unable to monitor the performance (necessary to do in all ways - not just a Tourney score and a putative Spire score) of their recent admits, which lead me to ask myself, "why do these AMs take on the number of FS up until they are overwhelmed? (The Peter Principle)."
This metric would encourage this behavior.

Why are we agreeing that having our gaming monitored in yet another metric is better than nurturing good Mageship? Is it so ridiculous to expect an AM to assign a new player to one of her lieutenants, saying, "let me know how this one (or these two) finish up the Spire", and perhaps repeating this for a second or third FS. Doesn't this establish a good chain of oversight? Isn't this expert level of leadership more desirable than establishing yet another readout?

This shows that you know (Much Better than I do) that good leadership is more a function of established relationships, plus a certain talent in selecting compatible players plus encouragement and support, whereas playing gotcha with numbers one is trying to play catch-up with ones past decisions; one is not leading the FS in this way but rather second-guessing themselves.
Given players come from all over the world with a myriad of time zones it can be challenging to be online at the exact right moment to capture the final results.
We have individual tourney scores so adding Spire results is reasonable IMO
 

Kekune

Well-Known Member
Delegate authority. Spread the responsibility. Establish a chain of leadership. Give your lieutenants a chance to invest in their FS.
Yup, done. Mages and ambassadors on our team are all contributing to leading the group; they're not just titles. But it's a tedious task for anyone. I'd much rather just have a tab to glance at this information when it's needed, and let my team spend their valuable time and energy on something that requires human thought and action.
 

Gkyr

Chef
Perhaps the source of my objection is the support my data-suggestion did not receive (perhaps not). To use your own response:
Lol
That...
ain't gonna happen

Inno is not about to allow us to export our data because then we could collect and compare it.
It amazes me how everyone is galvanized behind an idea that might...perhaps...benefit 5% (likely less) of players (AMs) while a suggestion that will certainly benefit all of us remains largely ignored.

That suggestion is: ask Inno to provide each of us with a data stream that contains all of our buildings and all of our processes and the intervals to completion. We can import this data into spreadsheets that tell us exactly when to be online to complete our harvests. Better than guessing and forgetting.

To those who say, "don't hijack this thread, post your idea somewhere else" I say this is the perfect concatenation of a function that is needed but hard to visualize with a simpler function that can easily be anticipated but has much less benefit to every player in Elvenar. For the record, it is posted elsewhere.


@Eudaemonia : Talk about "we could collect and compare it"... I see the Spire metric mostly being used by FS members to harang their AM, as in "why dont you kick this one out?"

In comparison, @SoggyShorts , I understand you have a number of calculating spreadsheets at your disposal. Do you hunt and peck, filling in cells by hand? Wouldn't it be a great benefit to have these auto-fill and have the results in a matter of seconds rather than hunting for data? Why would you not want to support an individual data-feed from Inno?

This Spire idea is so limited, so circumventing of good leadership techniques and so ripe for abuse that I truly don't understand the fervor, except to think that its simplicity makes it accessible to casual thinking.
 
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Gkyr

Chef
Yup, done. Mages and ambassadors on our team are all contributing to leading the group; they're not just titles. But it's a tedious task for anyone. I'd much rather just have a tab to glance at this information when it's needed, and let my team spend their valuable time and energy on something that requires human thought and action.
The Spire performance of any one of your players, as one aspect of the cooperation and happiness of any one of us within this game, deserves your human thought and action, and not just a metric.
 

Kekune

Well-Known Member
The Spire performance of any one of your players, as one aspect of the cooperation and happiness of any one of us within this game, deserves your human thought and action, and not just a metric.
Yes, assessing that information requires human thought. But gathering it shouldn't. It's silly to require a human to be online from 3:55 to 4:00 on a Friday afternoon to see these scores.

The information already exists in a temporary display. It shouldn't be hard to make it last longer. Heck, it doesn't even need a new format - just make the existing screen accessible even after the spire ends.
 

Gkyr

Chef
The devs, as we know, are not sitting around, waiting for suggestions from us to work on. It requires us to select our suggestions and requests to be those that will benefit the most of us to the greatest extent possible.
 

DeletedUser27062

Guest
Perhaps the source of my objection is the support my data-suggestion did not receive (perhaps not). To use your own response:

It amazes me how everyone is galvanized behind an idea that might...perhaps...benefit 5% (likely less) of players (AMs) while a suggestion that will certainly benefit all of us remains largely ignored.

That suggestion is: ask Inno to provide each of us with a data stream that contains all of our buildings and all of our processes and the intervals to completion. We can import this data into spreadsheets that tell us exactly when to be online to complete our harvests. Better than guessing and forgetting.

To those who say, "don't hijack this thread, post your idea somewhere else" I say this is the perfect concatenation of a function that is needed but hard to visualize with a simpler function that can easily be anticipated but has much less benefit to every player in Elvenar. For the record, it is posted elsewhere.


@Eudaemonia : Talk about "we could collect and compare it"... I see the Spire metric mostly being used by FS members to harang their AM, as in "why dont you kick this one out?"

In comparison, @SoggyShorts , I understand you have a number of calculating spreadsheets at your disposal. Do you hunt and peck, filling in cells by hand? Wouldn't it be a great benefit to have these auto-fill and have the results in a matter of seconds rather than hunting for data? Why would you not want to support an individual data-feed from Inno?

This Spire idea is so limited, so circumventing of good leadership techniques and so ripe for abuse that I truly don't understand the fervor, except to think that its simplicity makes it accessible to casual thinking.

I had a great idea once. I thought it would be super helpful and of great value to loads of folks. I shared my idea and got... crickets. It's perfectly normal to be so in love with our own ideas that our ability to reason is compromised. Having a strong emotional attachment to them becomes problematic because we can't see past them.
I remember arguing black and blue with @SoggyShorts about cross-trades and their value. I just couldn't see his POV - not until I let go of my own. Turns out I was wrong (not the first time, certainly not the last) but I don't regret arguing so hard against them either because I learned a lot.

If you were to take a look at your comments, both on this topic and on your other post about data exporting you'll see you've contradicted yourself. You're presenting an argument here that actually goes against the very thing you wanted in your other post. That says to me that you're not arguing from a place of reason. Just something to think about,
 

Lelanya

Scroll-Keeper
@Lelanya When one is first playing the Spire, the distinction between "gate" as in the places where you stop for timers and "Gateway" as the first level of the Spire is a little hard to grasp. (Especially if you haven't visited the Laboratory yet.) Maybe asking about the frog boss would help?
Of course we have adapted over time, and don't take on players who are confused about this.

Good news for those who've been following, we generally get gold most weeks now. I have been able to upgrade the FS mimimum to frog boss for all NEW players, and existing ones are understood to be gearing towards that. The awesome support from the members has meant that recruitment goes well. My signature FS no longer requires push weeks :)
 

Alram

Well-Known Member
Of course we have adapted over time, and don't take on players who are confused about this.

Good news for those who've been following, we generally get gold most weeks now. I have been able to upgrade the FS mimimum to frog boss for all NEW players, and existing ones are understood to be gearing towards that. The awesome support from the members has meant that recruitment goes well. My signature FS no longer requires push weeks :)
So, you are requiring new players to kill the frog but allowing established players to work up to killing the frog? That's your plan?
EDIT: You should totally put this plan in your FS Overview. :)
 
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Gladiola

Well-Known Member
@Alram based on feedback from more established players, it is more difficult for them to climb the Spire than it is for me in chapter 4, especially as they haven't planned their cities to accomplish this. But I'm guessing @Lelanya was talking about people who newly join the fellowship, as opposed to people who were already there and didn't have that requirement when they joined.
 

Alram

Well-Known Member
@Alram based on feedback from more established players, it is more difficult for them to climb the Spire than it is for me in chapter 4, especially as they haven't planned their cities to accomplish this. But I'm guessing @Lelanya was talking about people who newly join the fellowship, as opposed to people who were already there and didn't have that requirement when they joined.
It is not more difficult.
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
EDIT: You should totally put this plan in your FS Overview. :)
I agree 100%.

It is not more difficult.
Okay, how about more expensive? It is more expensive and as it starts calling for nontrade goods in higher chapters advanced players must balance production more carefully because if they run out of goods that can not be traded they can not be helped by the FS.

I cater so a question for fighters, does it get easier to win with troop upgrades? I know it still costs more as squad sizes continue to increase.
 
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