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Your Elvenar Team
Deleted User - 3932582
Guest
This is unlikely to have any impact. While I didn't run a clean experiment on this, I've added 2 fully leveled extra armories over last little while (from existing 3), and didn't see any noticeable impact on Spire SS.
qaccy
Well-Known Member
@MinMax Gamer I didn't think about not actually being in chapter 16 until I complete the research! But yes, I'm planning on sitting with that bar full until I can see what effect it has on the Spire (if any), then unlocking it to see what impact that has. I figure Chapter 17's so far off in the future I won't be missing too much by doing essentially nothing for a couple weeks!
Socrates28
Well-Known Member
21st fight - Fifth fight on second level
15 / 35 / 478 / 169 / 3186 = 10091 / 10149 [2020-04-19]
@MinMax Gamer , are these numbers right? Something seems odd about them. Several more fights plus 2 AW levels and only a 40 increase in SS from last week?
Here are my numbers from last week so you don’t have to look for them:
Seventeenth fight - First fight on second level
15 / 35 / 478 / 167 / 3186 = 10051 / 10109 [2020-04-12]
15 / 35 / 478 / 169 / 3186 = 10091 / 10149 [2020-04-19]
@MinMax Gamer , are these numbers right? Something seems odd about them. Several more fights plus 2 AW levels and only a 40 increase in SS from last week?
Here are my numbers from last week so you don’t have to look for them:
Seventeenth fight - First fight on second level
15 / 35 / 478 / 167 / 3186 = 10051 / 10109 [2020-04-12]
Deleted User - 3932582
Guest
That's right on the money. 1st and 5th fights on the 2nd floor have the same SS multiplier, and the difference of 40 at this stage translates to about 13.3 for the base SS. With just 2 extra AW levels this makes each level cost at 6.7, which is right where the current expectation is.
michmarc
Well-Known Member
12 / 27 / 356 / 95 / 1665 / 105 => 1437 / 639 (4/19/2020)
Socrates28
Well-Known Member
Thank you @MinMax Gamer for the clarification. Not being as familiar with the numbers as you are I could not be sure if I had somehow given incorrect info.
Deleted User - 4646370
Guest
Further investigation shows that the culprit is a disconnected L2 AW. Disconnected AWs don't count for Trader's seed production (where I check AW levels) and for other places where total AW levels are used (Thrones of the High Men ranking and culture bonus and Thermal Springs of Youth culture boost).
However, if disconnected AW levels don't count for Spire squad size, one can exploit it by disconnecting their AWs before Spire starts and reconnecting them after to have low Spire costs. So disconnected AWs should count. In this case, the actual underlined value is 54 instead of 52.
Deleted User - 3932582
Guest
Wouldn't that be hilarious if it would actually work like that? I won't be surprised
OK, and if number of expansions is indeed 98 and not 99 for the second (as you mentioned is a possibility), then both cities are consistent.
Chimaera1234
Member
Late to the party. MinMax, you're doing the community a service! Awesome work.
Just a couple thoughts as I read through the thread: would make a lot of sense for AW size to impact in addition to AW level, which you've mentioned. This does make the algorithm highly variable between players since there is so much diversity. But to hone the math to perfection, this is a logical pursuit.
Also, I wondered what you thought about evolving buildings being a part of the equation? Since they level up they have the same feature of AWs as having variable utility per tile. Figured something potentially worth considering, and might even be easy to look at retrospectively in the context of the existing data you have, considering building level is generally static except for event periods.
Or disregard Realistically, you got 90% of the formula, seems to me. Thank you!
Just a couple thoughts as I read through the thread: would make a lot of sense for AW size to impact in addition to AW level, which you've mentioned. This does make the algorithm highly variable between players since there is so much diversity. But to hone the math to perfection, this is a logical pursuit.
Also, I wondered what you thought about evolving buildings being a part of the equation? Since they level up they have the same feature of AWs as having variable utility per tile. Figured something potentially worth considering, and might even be easy to look at retrospectively in the context of the existing data you have, considering building level is generally static except for event periods.
Or disregard
Realistically, you got 90% of the formula, seems to me. Thank you!Deleted User - 3932582
Guest
AW size being a factor is certainly a possibility and we're starting to look into this.
Evolving buildings is also a possibility, but I find it unlikely. We won't have a lot of natural data on this, as we only have a few evolvers, and for most people it is evolved in one go to the max. So not exactly like AWs. We can run some dedicated experiments on that, but so far nothing that I know in the game is tied to evolution levels.
Doubt that. Would take the under
Kekune
Well-Known Member
The city we've messaged about previously has an evolving building with 6 artifacts available, if you ever do want to test this.
DeletedUser5371
Guest
sorry i missed the data points at initial spire fight this week...here is the data at 6th fight on lab(3rd) level...if it helps
15/35/597/288/4626/126 => 15654/16998 [2020/05/22]
15/35/597/288/4626/126 => 15654/16998 [2020/05/22]
Chimaera1234
Member
Another idea: is it possible that they change some constant coefficient as they add chapters? Seems like they wouldn't want endgamers blowing up spire waiting for a new chapter to come out, so that's what the PURPOSE of the exponential curve is towards the end of city expansions. Maybe, as they add chapters, some coefficient is changed to make spire more palatable until endgame again? Just words, I don't know, you're the wizard.
Deleted User - 3932582
Guest
There is some kind of dependency on chapter and/or research done. I am not sure it is done specifically with end-gamers in mind, just to adjust difficulty according to potential abilities of a city. If anything, Spire was brought up to cater to people in the end-game, as they don't have chapters to play, and are in the best position to play Spire fully (hard to do while doing chapters and tournaments).
Regardless, we won't see stable end-game population for quite a while now, with chapter 16 just starting.
Enevhar Aldarion
Oh Wise One
Time for another round. Are there going to be a bunch of weird numbers for everyone already in chapter 16?
@MinMax Gamer I managed to not do anything this week that should affect the squad sizes other than placing the new expansion earned from scouting, so still chapter 15 for everything. And I probably will not officially enter chapter 16 for at least another week, til after the FA is over or some of my wishing wells expire, whichever takes longer.
Edit: new week, new numbers.
Ch15/MH35/PR555/AW182/SS4626/EX127 - My Spire squad 3301/Enemy squad 1466 [4/26/2020]
This is an increase of 28 and the only change was the new scouting expansion made available when chapter 16 was added. This is a bigger increase than I was expecting, after getting the total increase of 40 for two diamond expansion previously. Maybe just the fact it is connected to chapter 16 made it worth more? Or maybe diamond expansions simply increase the total less than the ones from scouting and research. The only other things I can think of that might account for the extra 8 are that I have a bunch of level 1 buildings out for the FA, if those even make any difference at all, and I have the KP bar for the Senate research full, but not activated yet. Or it could just be a general increase because of the new chapter being added. I hope there is someone at the end of chapter 15 who has done nothing at all in their city during the week, not even spending KP on the Senate research, to see if there is any increase in their squads simply because we have a new chapter.
@MinMax Gamer I managed to not do anything this week that should affect the squad sizes other than placing the new expansion earned from scouting, so still chapter 15 for everything. And I probably will not officially enter chapter 16 for at least another week, til after the FA is over or some of my wishing wells expire, whichever takes longer.
Edit: new week, new numbers.
Ch15/MH35/PR555/AW182/SS4626/EX127 - My Spire squad 3301/Enemy squad 1466 [4/26/2020]
This is an increase of 28 and the only change was the new scouting expansion made available when chapter 16 was added. This is a bigger increase than I was expecting, after getting the total increase of 40 for two diamond expansion previously. Maybe just the fact it is connected to chapter 16 made it worth more? Or maybe diamond expansions simply increase the total less than the ones from scouting and research. The only other things I can think of that might account for the extra 8 are that I have a bunch of level 1 buildings out for the FA, if those even make any difference at all, and I have the KP bar for the Senate research full, but not activated yet. Or it could just be a general increase because of the new chapter being added. I hope there is someone at the end of chapter 15 who has done nothing at all in their city during the week, not even spending KP on the Senate research, to see if there is any increase in their squads simply because we have a new chapter.
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Deleted User - 4646370
Guest
16/35/444/178/3699/113 --> 2979/1323 (The 4 expansions are 1 research one (that I have had in inventory since I ended chapter 15) and 3 scouting ones. The AW upgrade is Simia to level 11. I also researched Senate and both Embassies.)
8/21/167/31/570/65 --> 469/209 (In this city I researched this week both cultural buildings at the beginning of Orcs, and the Main Hall upgrade.)
Commentaries : in my second city, the MH upgrade from L19 to L21 and the research increased Spire squad size by 7. If MH level has an influence, I'd have expected a greater increase. So I think MH level has no effect, while research has. (However, this little increase could also be because either research or MH lowens Spire SS.)
In my first city, Spire SS increased by 163 while Iteration 2 gives an increase of around 60 for the 4 expansions and the AW. So entering the new chapter and doing some research probably further increases squad size.
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Deleted User - 1599294
Guest
beginning of Chp 16 / MH L35 / Compl Prov 500 / AW Levels 163 / SS 3108 =>Spire SS 3140 / 1395 [2020-04-26] 125 expansions (+1 from scouting)
Enevhar Aldarion
Oh Wise One
Did you complete the Senate research to be properly in chapter 16 or are you still actually in chapter 15? With new research to do, Minmax needs to know how much new research we complete as well.
Deleted User - 4646370
Guest
So this week I tried to disconnect everything (removing roads next to Main Hall) 2 minutes before Spire started, then waited until beginning of Spire to look at squad size before reconnecting everything. This didn't decrease Spire squad size. So either disconnected AWs count for Spire SS, or the number of AW levels needed for Spire SS calculation is taken before Spire starts.