The FA is unwell

[Myne]

Ooh ... That's a great thought. I'm not exactly sure what you meant but you have my creative juices flowing.

What if fellowships are assigned a certain league ... they compete in their league for top prize but they also compete in the overall FA as well. In other words, a fellowship might place 1st in their league with like-ranked fellowships (with appropriate prizes) as well as 6th overall, with the regular 6th place prize. So they can win double prizes and also feel good that they can get a first place win even if they aren't insanely high in their world. Fellowships can be assigned to a Pearl league, Diamond league, Ruby league, etc. They will be competing only against fellowships that are pretty much their level as far as ranking goes. (A fellowship that has a 1 million overall score does not have to compete against a fellowship that has a 20 mill overall score.)

Or, what about fellowships that choose their league? They cannot choose a league below their level ... since it wouldn't be fair if they dominated a baby league. But they could choose one above their weight if they really want to. You'd have a lot of 1st place winners that way among fellowships that could not possibly hope to get a first place win the way it is now.

Or what about fellowships that can invite other fellowships to join with them in a particular league?

Hmm ... what about fellowships joining together for leagues for other things too? Events? Member partnerships for when members want to take a break or do more?

Anyway, I may be totally off base with what you thought, but you've inspired me!

The first paragraph is more what I was proposing....though the idea of two leagues IS intriguing.

 

[Tuschunreal]

I did not read all of this thread so I'll just say a couple of things so as not to be too repetitive.
1 ) You will never be able to eliminate all exploits. People will always find a way.
2 ) Extending the eligibility time is a horrible idea. People often join right before an FA for perfectly legitimate reasons.
C ) Play for the fun of it and ignore the people you consider cheaters.

I must add though. People who will switch out accounts just to score high are kind of sad. Who are they trying to impress? A bunch of anonymous people on a free game?
My FS usually does well in the FAs. ( Top ten or better )
And we enjoy doing well. But, we get pleasure from the personal accomplishment.




I find this strange. This goes along with my "personal accomplishment" comment above. You are doing a push so you bring in ringers? So what did you just do? Nothing. To me a 'push" is when your FS gets together and says, "Let's do better than our usual. Let's push ourselves and see what we can do."
Your philosophy is like a high school football team deciding to win a game by suiting up some pro players.
The score might end up 53 - 0. But the TEAM did not win.
Maybe I just look at thing differently. You know in my 20 years of school, I never once cheated on a test. Pass or fail, I wanted the test to reflect my ability. Not my ability to hide cheat sheets under a watch band or to write formulas on my eyelids.

I am in one fellowship that requires gold spire, does 15+ chests and works very hard on the FA. In another world I am in a very relaxed perhaps 6 chests, do whatever in Spire and periodically does a 10 chest push. In yet another, I am rebuilding a fellowship and finally I joined a starfleet FS. I like each FS as they give me a different experience which works for me. I would like to comment on the starfleet concept. If I need a break I can transfer to a starbase with very low minimum expectations and when I am ready I can go back to the original FS. IF i want to try a gold push in the more advanced FS and see if that works for me and my city I can give it a try and if it doesn't work I can return to my original FS. If it works then I can stay in the more "advanced" FS. That may seem strange but baseball operates basically the same way. Each major league team has players that move between the majors, AAA, AA, A leagues. I am not sure many people think the MLB teams cheat by moving players around nor do they say the team didn't win. Does FA need improved. Sure everything needs improved. I need to improve my city building approach, my interactions within my FS and how I approach others in the game. The game can be improved but I know I don't have the experience to suggest how. cheers...tusch

 

[Darielle]

So what do all the big FA players have in common that makes them able to do what they do? They have the space and/or the diamonds. That's it. The diamonds we can't fix and Inno probably wouldn't want to fix it. But the space we can. Here's how: We limit the number of lvl 1 workshops and T1 buildings you can have at one time. Say 50 of each. Now that's still a fair bit of territory, but not so much that those building FA farm cities can just out-build everybody. It still allows for the building of FA competitive cities, but it also increases the number of competitive fellowships while still allowing fellowships to get through the FA stages.

Another advantage is simply that to get that high score you can't rely on three, four, or five massive -- 250 workshops or more -- heavy hitters but have to get everybody working together. And that, I think, is the real determiner of a successful FA team.

And, finally, it will force those who buy the FA top slot to spend a lot more. Inno's got to love that!

That's my proposal.

AJ

While I would personally hate this, because I'm one of those who builds 300 or more, I do believe that this might add some sanity to the FA. And you're right ... fellowships would have to spend a heck of a lot more if they wanted to keep those 100K scores. Inno should love that. I do think, however, that scores might go to a saner level with this idea. I can remember the days when 50K won the top spot. I miss the way things used to be, where you really felt you had a shot even without a huge diamond mine at your disposal.

 

[ajqtrz]

There are gaps in the ruleset for fellowships and the fellowship adventures that incentivize behavior which is contrary to the spirit of the game, IMHO. Inno Product team should review the situation and update the rules for balanced play.

Fellowships have discovered a way to excel at the FA, achieving scores over 100k. However the methods involve player sharing, alt accounts and exiled players. (Edit: this is the “exile-mayhem” scenario.) When players are made to leave a fellowship to make room for a FA alt account or alt player, it is disruptive to the fellowship and breaks the integrity of the game. Only a handful of fellowships engage in this practice to the detriment of all others.

Some updates to the rules for fellowship membership would address this. Consider the following changes:
+ to contribute to an FA, an account must be a fellowship member for two weeks prior the event start (2 weeks based on the beta “heads up”)
+ accounts that depart a fellowship in the two weeks following an FA become ineligible to contribute for that fellowship in the next FA, also:
+ consider alt accounts that only serve to “farm” FA badges as Push Accounts

With such rules in place it will make fellowships stronger, in the community sense, and level the field for the myriad fellowships that do not wish to exile members for FA points. And the game will be more fun and rewarding for all.

-Fjfif of Elcysandir

Summary: Based on comments, most people believe there are problems with the FA that should be addressed, but there is no consensus how, and changing FS membership 'lock-out' periods is largely unsupported as a possible solution. There were no comments on alt accounts being used as FA farms one way or the other. Many commenters provide alternative suggestions for improving the FA.

My suggestion that they just limit the amount of space you can use to build farms puts a cap on the possible score because even if you have 50 workshops of space for 25 players, that's only 1250 workshops. This reduces the top score (without diamonds being used) and forces those who really want to be "at the top" to either compete with a lot of other fellowships or spend a lot more diamonds. I think it may be the "alternative" for which you are looking?

As for the alt accounts, what does it matter if I use 24 of them if I still have to spend the diamonds? In other words, if you have one account spending the diamonds or 25 it's still spending the diamonds. Personally, I'd rather they just crack down on the alt accounts, especially if the person has more than one.

AJ

 

[crackie]

You don't need to spend diamonds. You just need to get everyone motivated.

 

[Darielle]

You don't need to spend diamonds. You just need to get everyone motivated.

You don't need diamonds for a number 4 spot, because we've done it. But I find it hard to believe you can take a number 1 without diamonds. I may be wrong and you may be right, but my gut tells me it's impossible when the difference between 4th and 1st is triple the 4th's points. But I may be thinking only of my world, Sinya, so I'm not sure of the others.

 

[bkbajb]

There are gaps in the ruleset for fellowships and the fellowship adventures that incentivize behavior which is contrary to the spirit of the game, IMHO. Inno Product team should review the situation and update the rules for balanced play.

Fellowships have discovered a way to excel at the FA, achieving scores over 100k. However the methods involve player sharing, alt accounts and exiled players. (Edit: this is the “exile-mayhem” scenario.) When players are made to leave a fellowship to make room for a FA alt account or alt player, it is disruptive to the fellowship and breaks the integrity of the game. Only a handful of fellowships engage in this practice to the detriment of all others.

Some updates to the rules for fellowship membership would address this. Consider the following changes:
+ to contribute to an FA, an account must be a fellowship member for two weeks prior the event start (2 weeks based on the beta “heads up”)
+ accounts that depart a fellowship in the two weeks following an FA become ineligible to contribute for that fellowship in the next FA, also:
+ consider alt accounts that only serve to “farm” FA badges as Push Accounts

With such rules in place it will make fellowships stronger, in the community sense, and level the field for the myriad fellowships that do not wish to exile members for FA points. And the game will be more fun and rewarding for all.

-Fjfif of Elcysandir

Summary: Based on comments, most people believe there are problems with the FA that should be addressed, but there is no consensus how, and changing FS membership 'lock-out' periods is largely unsupported as a possible solution. There were no comments on alt accounts being used as FA farms one way or the other. Many commenters provide alternative suggestions for improving the FA.

We do a push a couple of times a year and get over 100k points. Even without the push we are competitive enough where we do well. But we do it with players who have the room to add 100 or more WS or manufactories and make the 1-2 day items in advance. If a few FS are doing what you say, so what. We do not worry about what others do, just what we do

 

[SoulsSilhouette]

No matter what rules you come up with.... human nature dictates that someone will find a way to circumvent them.

I would much prefer when it comes to the FA that they mix up the maps (not tweak the badges to make it 'harder' for those top FA fellowships)

I wish they would create tiers... so we compete against other like fellowships to give us a shot at the end prizes. (based on scores, this would also address the issue of keeping inactive players around for ranking points and encourage dropping inactive players)

Oh and fix the pit so it just takes whatever we make and assigns a point value to each badge.

 

[SoulsSilhouette]

They could fix it so that only productions/collections started after the FA start counted for badges. That would be fun.

I would never be able to do anything in the FA then because I work a forty hour week outside of the home and will not burn vacation days to play the FA. I don't have the flexibility in my work to play continually on my phone, which can't handle this game anyway. Not everyone can play games at work. I just think that would be the WORST thing to do.

Winning the FA means that they have either diamonds to purchase badges or rearrange their cities to be able to crank out major numbers of badges.

 

[SoulsSilhouette]

Now in defense of Fellowships who are NOT in the top tier .... I am the proud Archmage of Rebels and Misfits in Khel. I accept all players from any point of the game. I do not require a player to do more than they can. How can I? I can't ask more of others than I ask of myself. I play in every world and am in some quite competitive groups. I couldn't run a group like that because the time investment is enormous.

I have a small group that plays when they can and does what they can when they can. Fellowships that allow people to play their game, learn the game, learn about how to do things in the game..... to learn the benefits of being in a fellowship... we are necessary. We actually have no seat at the table and voices that no one in INNO hears. I have a soft place to land for people who need it, a place for new players to feel comfortable with what they can contribute. So you will never see our name at the top of any winners lists, but like the 'Whos' WE ARE HERE!

 

[Evileyeleen]

You don't need diamonds for a number 4 spot, because we've done it. But I find it hard to believe you can take a number 1 without diamonds. I may be wrong and you may be right, but my gut tells me it's impossible when the difference between 4th and 1st is triple the 4th's points. But I may be thinking only of my world, Sinya, so I'm not sure of the others.

I can confirm, no diamonds needed for 1st place (140k+) score.

 

[Ronbear the Grand]

Yeah, I know that's true. I just wish there were ways for the fellowships with a lot of dedication to win the FAs even without spending diamonds. But I guess that involves having a huge network of swap-able players.

Maybe I just yearn for the good old days when you didn't need diamonds or a network. You just had to rally the troops and work hard. I miss that.

You all do realize that Inno has to pay the bills, right? I buy diamonds and spend diamonds weekly and unabashedly…and I do it specifically so that I can support a game platform that I absolutely love playing. In-game purchases pay for the platform, and I budget for them to ensure that I can support the game.

For as much as “purists” like to tout their staunch position on diamond-less play, I (and many others) see them as freeloaders. I appreciate that some folks don’t have the budget to spend money on the game, and I am happy that my purchases can help subsidize their fun. But for a bunch of self-righteous players to continually proselytize this self-important belief system that Inno created the game to be about diamond-less players is ludicrous. It’s like going out to a coffee shop every day and freeloading on their wi-fi for 12 hours a day without making a purchase…and then thinking that your freeloading is what the coffee shop actually wants — to serve you up free wi-fi vs. serving you good coffee and food so they can earn your money and pay their bills.

 

[Lelanya]

... Tiptoes out before the pungent brown stuff hits the proverbial fan blades...

 

[Darielle]

You all do realize that Inno has to pay the bills, right?

Sheesh. I have probably put more money into this over the last four years than you have. Condescension is not the way to win friends and influence people. (That quote may be unfamiliar to you, but no matter.)

 

[Iyapo]

I have probably put more money into this over the last four years than you have.

(shhh....that is a secret)

 

[Ronbear the Grand]

Sheesh. I have probably put more money into this over the last four years than you have. Condescension is not the way to win friends and influence people. (That quote may be unfamiliar to you, but no matter.)

Hahahahahahahaha — I do not think that word means what you think it means

 

[SoulsSilhouette]

I do purchase diamonds. I do spend diamonds, but not on the FA. I usually get them for other purposes. I cannot purchase enough diamonds to make a meaningful impact on the FA. BUT, I will purchase a badge if it is the last that is needed and we are hung up and I can't use speeders to create it. That being said, I dislike that the FA is being adjusted for the top fellowships. Those of us in the middle and below are being left behind. So, diamonds or no, that is my very simple statement of what ails the FA.

 

[Myne]

We really should have had a higher percentage voting that it needed to be revamped, methinks. I still say sorting into leagues for that purpose would bring about more satisfaction. JMHO

 

[Lelanya]

So RonBear
I see you are chapter 10. When I was doing S&D for the first time (geez that had to be during Crash's Halloween event lol), I sure had spent a fair bit of money on the game as well.

 

[Ronbear the Grand]

So RonBear
I see you are chapter 10. When I was doing S&D for the first time (geez that had to be during Crash's Halloween event lol), I sure had spent a fair bit of money on the game as well.

The only viable way for me to compensate Inno for the 20+ hours of entertainment value they provide to me each week is to buy stuff they offer as in-game purchases (and, of course, to get other folks to play the game).

My wife and I started playing this game about 18 months ago…and we love Elvenar — especially, Spire and FA (we actually got married at the end of the November one-Spire FA)...and yes, even though I am in chapter 10 and I slow-play my research because I like to max out each chapter experience, I am in fact one of the dastardly players that teleports my buildings and puts down a sea of trees for the FA because it is fun for *me* (I know, I know, shame shame shame on me for tailoring my game experience to what I enjoy).

That all considered, real-world economics dictate that this game that we love cannot be sustained for free...as evidenced by 20% of Inno’s staff being canned for “restructuring” — we are all spending countless hours a week on their servers, consuming their resources, consuming their intellectual capital to play a game we enjoy. I do not see any merit in the continuous “anti-spend” boasting that peppers all these threads.

In my short 8-9 months on the forum, it seems there is almost some sort of pious reverence about one’s endeavor to play without spending money. For the most part, I keep my keyboard silent when I am here in forum…but for folks to continuously boast about not spending money while the game is being eroded by lack of funds is tone-deaf. I budget $160-$240 bi-weekly for this game, some weeks I spend more than that depending on how much I play. I compensate Inno through in-game purchases, whether I need the stuff or not. I don’t care about the game advantage, I care about fairly paying for my entertainment, just as if I were going to a restaurant or buying something on Amazon.

There are folks in my fellowship who have become friends and have very limited means, and even though they do not know it, I compensate Inno for them as well (and then I make extra goods and give them back to them to help out). And just to be clear, this commentary is not condescending any more than my last post was…I am expressing an equal and opposing opinion to what seems to be the popular view, and I am challenging what seems to be a misplaced notion of folks who feel self-righteous about working around the system and then complaining about the product quality.

The reality is that this game is temporal…it lasts only for as long as it is economically viable. Who cares if it’s a bad investment to spend money during the FA…or during Events…or whatever / however they want to spend their money. The point I take away from that is that they are paying their share.