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    Your Elvenar Team

Discussion Tournament Changes

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
I do not agree with this. I dont think understanding the why would have any impact on the negative reaction.

I did not mean to imply criticism of the change. I was simply pointing out that this change does not benifit small players at the expense of advanced players. This change permanently impacts all players.
Off course people do not like it, but at least they understand the why.
Nerfs are never fun or enjoyable, instead they suck. but if they are nessesary do not try to pull it off as an "improvement" for the players.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
Off course people do not like it, but at least they understand the why.
Nerfs are never fun or enjoyable, instead they suck. but if they are nessesary do not try to pull it off as an "improvement" for the players.
Their problem was they phrased it like it was an improvement for ALL the players, rather than an improvement only for the players who never went more than 15-20 provinces deep in each tournament. For those players and their fellowships, this has been good.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
6 chests is a good spot to test. I imagine there will be some improvement since doing the tournament is obviously less tedious, and some loss since there is increased difficulty/cost at advanced levels. The end result being.......?
Please let us know how it goes.
Alright, two weeks in and 8 chests each week, without any kind of push, and with only 18 or 19 of 23 members putting in points each week. That compares to only 6 and 5 chests in the last cycle for marble and steel. Last marble was 15,500 points and this marble was 29,000 points, so almost double the points for the fellowship. Steel was only 13,400 points last time and about 26,000 this time, so almost double the points again. We did add one new member for these two, but she only accounted for about 1/3 of the increase each week. My increase was also very minor, so at least some of the other members found it easier to get more points with the new system.
 

Henroo

Well-Known Member
Question for Beta players. In the old tournament format Scrolls and Dust were 2 of the hardest weeks, largely due to the combinations of enemy forces. Is this still the case under the new format, or have things changed?
 

Pheryll

Well-Known Member
To answer your question, I'll quote myself

Beta has already documented the tendencies for enemies for each relic type:

Marble: Heavy Melee
Steel: Mage
Planks: Light Range
Crystal: Mage & Heavy Ranged
Scroll: Light Ranged & Heavy Ranged
Silk: Light Melee & Heavy Melee
Elixir: Light Range, Light Melee & Heavy Melee
Magic Dust: Light Melee, Mage & Heavy Ranged
Gems: Light Melee, Heavy Ranged & Heavy Melee
The T3 tournaments should wind up being the most difficult as they are closest to a random distribution of enemies, while the T1 should in general be the easiest.
 
I will not be playing into INNO's hands and trying to put any serious effort into the tournaments. I sure as heck will not buy any more diamonds either. After seeing players scoring 16K and 17K, it's clear that INNO did not prevent players from achieving higher scores; they simply altered who was going to get those types of scores. I'm not mad or jealous that someone else is able to get 15K+ because today's midlevel players will be in our position when they eventually grow. Instead, I'm upset that growth is punitive, and it does not motivate me to continue wasting my time or money on this game anymore. In fact, Elvenar has helped me start a new game where I can invest my money from here on because growth should not be punitive (it helps me know that this game has been around for 2 decades, so they know how to reward growth).

I just wish they had the foresight not to be treat players like this.

Since it is wrong to only complain, here are the ideas I would have made toward tournament changes. I would have put every player on even ground with required SS's as the tool to determine tournament SS's. I mean seriously, why even give out any rank for the tournament if the game is rigged where some players are treated differently than others. Players' skill and city advancement should be the criteria to judge their achievements (those players getting 17k in this model obviously have the skill, but now advancement will be a detriment). Also, I would have placed all the required SS's at the beginning of each chapter so it would give incentive for players to finish the chapter with improved barracks, manufactories, expansions, and new AW's to improve cities. In order to spice up tournaments, I would simply have added a 7th round that was much harder than the prior 6 and only gave rank for that round. Then players could make the choice to push themselves and their resources to compete. I would have also kept the ten extra chests, but it would only give out RR spells for each one opened up after the initial 10.

For me, these types of changes would have made what was fun even more fun, but I'm not feeling the love currently. Furthermore, those making decisions have done a pretty good job to ruin fun, and that is really depressing.

Sorry for the rant, but I really needed to let this off my chest. Plus, I will admit, the move toward 1 battle per province was a good move.

Anyhow, what a waste. Wow, just wow...
 

ElegantZara

Well-Known Member
Elvenar has helped me start a new game where I can invest my money from here on because growth should not be punitive (it helps me know that this game has been around for 2 decades, so they know how to reward growth).
Okay, I love your post & I will bite....

Please do tell, what game is on your radar, that has been around that long & does that?

I simply must know. TYVM!

As for your comment in it's entirety, I feel compelled...

We have all been shafted. Period. Unless, you have many in your FS that will NEVER advance to Nerfdom!

Once upon a time here, advanced cities carried the not so. It's so simple!

Now the small cities do the carrying!

@InnoGames What happens when they grow up to advanced?

I will tell you. They will realize the nerf & penalties as is already been done so here & Beta.

BTW, bonus level....the new cities will never farm KPs like I did with 30+ provinces.

EZ/GlamDoll
 
ElegantZara,

Eve Online...the answer is Eve Online. I don't plan to quit though, but since I don't have to spend 30 - 40 minutes doing around 60 provinces of 4 battles each for 6 rounds, I got time to spare. I'm just going to do my 20 provinces to get the 5k points needed for Emerald Elites to get all the chests. I'm not going to let INNO suck me dry trying to push anymore.

Plus, I gave manual fighting a shot, and that only made me angrier. I think it was when I sent in 5 Wardens to kill 5 mages only to be blocked by obstacles in the map layout from getting in close enough within range, but the enemy mages with a range of 5 were able to strike me the following turn (Oh and nice move with the offer to buy troops there INNO...Touché). Even if I positioned my troops for minimal damage, every hit is a big loss of units for provinces 35-40. Okay, I accepted INNO was making it harder, but with maxed out expansions and over 600+ AW levels, the losses are very costly, so having terrain that ensures I'd have to take these losses regardless of planning and skill is really devious. Unhappily, I simply accepted tournaments were going to suck for all of us.

However, after the tournament is done, I see jmroach30 with a score of 17,280 followed by Alistaire at 16470. This shows me INNO failed in trying to limit how many provinces everyone was supposed to achieve. Instead, they simply nerfed advanced player cities and shifted the ability to get 600+ KPs to players that are clearly less developed in expansions and AW's. Using jmroach30 as an example, this player's city clearly has a very small number of AW's levels but with a 28th level needles and 16th level sanctuary, they are rockin' the new tournament system. Look these scores were typically obtained by Maggi, clusseau, and members of my FS (Maggi and clusseau didn't even make it into the top 3 nor did they even break 15K). After only the second week, with a steel tournament that was much harder than the marble tourney emphasizing HM enemies, it is clear that the new norm is not preventing players from getting 600+ KPs a week. Rather, it is simply shifting that kind of ability to a different set of players with less developed cities (I want to make clear, I'm not trying to bash these players getting these scores, but this is a good example of why these changes are so messed up that frankly accepting it is pretty much impossible for me).

I don't like the idea of different standards for different players, and certainly, growing should not be punitive. I don't know why INNO would have FA's anymore since punishing players for having more expansions or even considering filling the extra space with a bunch of level 1 workstations or manufactories, would effectively be a nonstarter. Furthermore, spending money on provinces that were and are increasingly more expensive is just crazy. Heck, why even pay for events to win prizes that can't match up with the extra manufactories and armories needed to negotiate during these new tournaments on said extra expansions that increase tournament losses? There were already debates about whether some AW's were even worth developing because of the space they used up, but in the infinite wisdom of the developers at INNO, they felt it was a good idea to allow every level of a questionable AW to add the player's tournament squad size and negotiation expense. I just can't fathom the logic here.

As stated before, if it was to somehow limit players from getting 600+ KPs during tournaments, y'all failed. Nope, this is clearly a straight-up nerf that ruined fun for those who donated the most time and money toward Elvenar. BTW, who cares if players were getting 600+ KPs a week. It was fun...isn't that what games are about? Fun? Now before someone calls me out about how this was not INNO's intent for players to have fun with gaining so many KPs, I remember when Street Fighter II came out. An unintended consequence of that game's mechanics Capcom did not expect was the combo feature. However, instead of fixing that, they saw the fun it added and they nurtured that aspect of the game, Additionally, they made a heck of a lot of money developing Steet Fighter II into a global sensation with tournaments gathering players from all over the world. It seems INNO decided to ruin the fun by going in another direction, except they didn't ruin the fun for all, they just shifted it to a new set of players by rubbing salt in the eyes of those who bought diamonds for years and gave up their time to support Elvenar. Not kool INNO, not kool by a mile (1.6 KM for the rest of the world).

So...I conclude with this, you should have listened to the community and used required SS's for your base measurement. If you, INNO, really wanted to rank tournaments, required SS's would have put everyone on even footing per chapter and allowed players to aspire toward getting better scores as they developed. You, INNO, could have put those required SS's at the beginning of chapters and worked on the single battle system per province. Furthermore, you could have kept your new percentage increases for each additional province. However, you should have allowed AW's and expansions to be an advantage for advancement in tournaments instead of some biased system that ruins the fun for more developed cities. Your system sucks because its ranking system is skewed toward punishing development, which kills fun!

Okay, I should stop now. My opinion could be wrong, but this is my personal truth. I hope these observations are an objective truth shared by more since this way I will know I'm not crazy. Am I wrong? Maybe...I don't think so though.
 
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CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
ElegantZara,

Eve Online...the answer is Eve Online. I don't plan to quit though, but since I don't have to spend 30 - 40 minutes doing around 60 provinces of 4 battles each for 6 rounds, I got time to spare. I'm just going to do my 20 provinces to get the 5k points needed for Emerald Elites to get all the chests. I'm not going to let INNO suck me dry trying to push anymore.

Plus, I gave manual fighting a shot, and that only made me angrier. I think it was when I sent in 5 Wardens to kill 5 mages only to be blocked by obstacles in the map layout from getting in close enough within range, but the enemy mages with a range of 5 were able to strike me the following turn (Oh and nice move with the offer to buy troops there INNO...Touché). Even if I positioned my troops for minimal damage, every hit is a big loss of units for provinces 35-40. Okay, I accepted INNO was making it harder, but with maxed out expansions and over 600+ AW levels, the losses are very costly, so having terrain that ensures I'd have to take these losses regardless of planning and skill is really devious. Unhappily, I simply accepted tournaments were going to suck for all of us.

However, after the tournament is done, I see jmroach30 with a score of 17,280 followed by Alistaire at 16470. This shows me INNO failed in trying to limit how many provinces everyone was supposed to achieve. Instead, they simply nerfed advanced player cities and shifted the ability to get 600+ KPs to players that are clearly less developed in expansions and AW's. Using jmroach30 as an example, this player's city clearly has a very small number of AW's levels but with a 28th level needles and 16th level sanctuary, they are rockin' the new tournament system. Look these scores were typically obtained by Maggi, clusseau, and members of my FS (Maggi and clusseau didn't even make it into the top 3 nor did they even break 15K). After only the second week, with a steel tournament that was much harder than the marble tourney emphasizing HM enemies, it is clear that the new norm is not preventing players from getting 600+ KPs a week. Rather, it is simply shifting that kind of ability to a different set of players with less developed cities (I want to make clear, I'm not trying to bash these players getting these scores, but this is a good example of why these changes are so messed up that frankly accepting it is pretty much impossible for me).

I don't like the idea of different standards for different players, and certainly, growing should not be punitive. I don't know why INNO would have FA's anymore since punishing players for having more expansions or even considering filling the extra space with a bunch of level 1 workstations or manufactories, would effectively be a nonstarter. Furthermore, spending money on provinces that were and are increasingly more expensive is just crazy. Heck, why even pay for events to win prizes that can't match up with the extra manufactories and armories needed to negotiate during these new tournaments on said extra expansions that increase tournament losses? There were already debates about whether some AW's were even worth developing because of the space they used up, but in the infinite wisdom of the developers at INNO, they felt it was a good idea to allow every level of a questionable AW to add the player's tournament squad size and negotiation expense. I just can't fathom the logic here.

As stated before, if it was to somehow limit players from getting 600+ KPs during tournaments, y'all failed. Nope, this is clearly a straight-up nerf that ruined fun for those who donated the most time and money toward Elvenar. BTW, who cares if players were getting 600+ KPs a week. It was fun...isn't that what games are about? Fun? Now before someone calls me out about how this was not INNO's intent for players to have fun with gaining so many KPs, I remember when Street Fighter II came out. An unintended consequence of that game's mechanics Capcom did not expect was the combo feature. However, instead of fixing that, they saw the fun it added and they nurtured that aspect of the game, Additionally, they made a heck of a lot of money developing Steet Fighter II into a global sensation with tournaments gathering players from all over the world. It seems INNO decided to ruin the fun by going in another direction, except they didn't ruin the fun for all, they just shifted it to a new set of players by rubbing salt in the eyes of those who bought diamonds for years and gave up their time to support Elvenar. Not kool INNO, not kool mile (1.6 KM for the rest of the world).

So...I conclude with this, you should have listened to the community and used required SS's for your base measurement. If you, INNO, really wanted to rank tournaments, required SS's would have put everyone on even footing per chapter and allowed players to aspire toward getting better scores as they developed. You, INNO, could have put those required SS's at the beginning of chapters and worked on the single battle system per province. Furthermore, you could have kept your new percentage increases for each additional province. However, you should have allowed AW's and expansions to be an advantage for advancement in tournaments instead of some biased system that ruins the fun for more developed cities. Your system sucks because its ranking system is skewed toward punishing development, which kills fun!

Okay, I should stop now. My opinion could be wrong, but this is my personal truth. I hope these observations are an objective truth shared by more since this way I will know I'm not crazy. Am I wrong? Maybe...I don't think so though.
While I agree with most of this I like to make a small remark.

Some people still have lots or resources, which can scew numbers into weird directions. But we indeed see some people have is so much easier than others.

It will take time for these recources to settle as some have several years of timeboosters in stock. So they can drag it out for a long time.

Also, this new setup allows for the oddball I go all out every x weeks again for exta high scores. Or the go all out once approach.

But besides that I totally agree with your post. The only reason I am still getting decent scores is because I am more tenacious than my competition and I am manually fighting now to be able to offset my disadvantage towards those who still autofight with much better odds.

My tournament now takes about 4-5 times longer to complete at 2/3 of the provinces.
 

ElegantZara

Well-Known Member
Eve Online...the answer is Eve Online
Thank you so much for the info. Have a great day.

Edit: Thanks also Eliphas Solomon, for your whole post. I am gonna go read it again :) I had to blast tons of my resources to get my relics for my T1 sentient. So, my score this week is a fluke. I am good for about 8-10 provinces now, without blowing my reserves into oblivion...so, that as they say, is that.
 
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Meggi

Active Member
If you want to derive the formula yourself, then it is easy once you know the form it takes and the variables used.
Variables:
Research: Total of all mandatory technologies (those that are required by other technologies)
City Size: Count of all expansions, premium expansions are counted as a fraction of an expansion
Relic Bonus: Maximum of 700%, it is the highest bonus given by any one of your relics
AW levels: The total of all levels present in your wonders

Base Tourney/Spire Squad Size: Exponential function(research) * linear function(relic bonus) * linear function(city size) * linear function(AW levels)
Tourney multiplier: Your diagonal number (diagonal 1 is 1-1, diagonal 20 is 20-1, 19-2, 18-3, 17-4, 16-5, 15-6)

Catering for tourney is proportional to the squad size you are able to bring in. The Elvenar team has from time to time tweaked some of the values within the formula, but the form and the variables used have remained the same. For earlier versions of the formula, you can see those in MinMax's blogs (which I presume you have already looked at).
Peril we do have to talk about maximum bonus reached on relics;)
1603129529225.png
 

Meggi

Active Member
@Pheryll is correct, relics give only up to 700% production boost. The rest of your boost is coming from AWs.
I agree Minmax, still get punished for it:)
Ok folks,
I really wanted to wait until all of the 9 tourneys come through so I can actually say something about it.
My verdict is still not out overall. @Elephias Solomon thank you for moral support and for going after INNO for advanced players punishment .
Actually I do better with my small player in my small city then with my Big city in Arendyll.
So thank you INNO for rewarding years of hard work, investment and loyalty, you really nailed it.
So the question for INNO is very simple:
You want to keep players advancing , or do you want them to stop to do so?
And I would actually like an answer here in forum for it, you want our feedback, we want yours.
What, if at all do you have planned not to piss off advanced player (Quaccy excluded)?
Tournaments pros and cons:
1.one- click is a definite pro
2. having only 5 enemies is a good feature .
that's as far as pro goes
Cons:
where do I start:
1.first 20 provinces are easy auto clicks without significant losses
2.manual fighting is now the only thing left to do after that if you don't want to kill your army completely.
3.I do not understand the need to kill most fun aspect of the game( the tournaments), at least for me they were.
4.what are you going to do when the mid players stop being a mid players and they advance as we did?
5.Minmax, thank you for the calculator, it really is an eye opener.
Ok folks, that's my 2 cents for now...INNO you have failed us....