Tournament Changes

[edeba]

I have to question your reasoning on your 3 points.

1. Are you saying that the extra space provided by an expansion is not worth a cost increase in tournaments?
2. Isn't that what you're supposed to do anyway? Why would you place anything in your city that doesn't help you?
3. Related to #1. Advancing in research and the benefits granted by such is somehow worse than having a slight cost increase for tournament encounters?

You have to consider the benefits of what you're claiming that you're going to give up, rather than just the 'negative' of having a cost increase in Tournaments. Or are you honestly suggesting that never placing an expansion, building no AWs, and stopping all research once Tournaments are unlocked is somehow superior to continuing to expand and develop your city?

The formula for increasing squad size based on adding tech, expansions and AW levels is too punitive and they are unreasonably hitting the highest investors into the game. I think the break even is around 2500 points based on doing all 6 levels and if you typically score higher than that, the tournament will be more difficult.

The old tournament had level 1 with difficulty where the enemy squad size was 85% the size of yours for all provinces. Level 2 the enemy squad size was the same, level 3 - 115%, level 4 - 130%, level 5- 145%, and level 6 - 160%. A lot of player did not play level 6 or as much of level 6 because of difficulty, and the big rewards from the old tournament were from 100% and 145% difficulty levels.

With the new tournament anything you do on level 5 past province 14 is more difficult for the same rewards as what you had in the old tournament, and on level 2, by province 8 it is more difficult than what level 2 used to be.

Every single encounter past the following provinces and levels is more difficult than level 6 of the old tournament:
Level 1 province 22
Level 2 province 21
Level 3 province 20
Level 4 province 19
Level 5 province 18
Level 6 province 17

The increase in difficulty is 3.6% per province. By province 33 only level 1 is under 200% difficulty. Many players only play to level 5, 145% difficulty, so 200/145-1 is 38% more difficult by province 33, and no easy levels.

So, the squad size used to be based on the squad size techs, now, every time you do a tech, your squad size increases, and that probably isn't a problem, but it is compounded by every time you place an expansion or level an AW. The feedback on beta has overwhelmingly been that the penalty for advancing your game is too high and you can have over 400% difference in squad size for players at the same place in the tech tree.

On beta one of my teammates went from being able to play all open provinces to getting about 40 provinces, but he spends twice as much time on the tournament now because it is all manual battle and at least 6 military boosts. I suspect it is almost impossible to get past around province 30 without manual battle.

Before the new tournament on beta, I would play level 1 and 2 to 40-45 provinces, all that I had open, and then maybe 10-15 provinces for the other levels, but only played the level 6 to province 9. I was building resources. I tried that with the new tournament and I wiped out about half of my surplus resources that I spent months building up in a single tournament. And this is an improvement?

One of my strong teammates on beta decided he would give Inno 3 weeks to fix this monstrosity that they have raped the power of our cities and he was so mad he deleted everything and quit over this.

I will not be spending any more money on this game because of this change. This is a massive take from probably the top 100 players of the tournament on every server.

 

[hvariidh gwendrot]

great so we sit around and not advance our cities to play in tournaments to get the items to help advance our cities ?

 

[StarLoad]

Just have to wait and see how it goes, each of us

 

[Deleted User - 4750465]

great so we sit around and not advance our cities to play in tournaments to get the items to help advance our cities ?

You will still increase your AW levels, Relics, and Expansions.

 

[Black watch]

Looks like what time we would have saved is now spent scouting every encounter so we can fight MORE often in manual. We're doing a ten chest week this week and I've got all my available provinces open and running. I look at those 53 and shake my head. I'll never see that again.
I can't figure out why INNO chooses to focus on things that they do when a tweak would have sufficed. It's like killing a fly with a sledge hammer. I loved the idea of one click to release the tedious nature of the "all out efforts" for some tourneys. I thought it would be good.
But now, I just cringe at the thought of another over the top meddling mess given us with the kind words that say, "Hey, we've made things better," when in fact it's far from... it's like politics.... they say all sorts of promises, but in the end, you get bent over a stump and it's not fun.
When will they learn?
I think one of the things that strikes me is that folks report that the beta users had an overwhelmingly negative feedback overall- that was ignored.
I have to say, I have nothing but trepidation regarding these changes coming.
Gawd help us all, INNO's got their Non-logical thinking caps still on.

 

[hvariidh gwendrot]

the thread is saying if you increase your aw' levels and expansions it will go against you for being able to advance in tournaments and spire .. if that is the case, w e are doing tournaments to gather kp to what? look at and not use to advance tech tree or wonders ? and forget about anyone purchasing diamonds again if expansions are going to be counted against a player and why scout if it makes it harder ? i'm not even being sarcastic i would like someone that is from the game to come in here and explain how they think this is a good thing with 99.9% of those having done it hating the format

 

[LutherTheHairy]

Dear Humans and Elves,

Please use this thread to discuss the upcoming tournament changes.

We're looking forward to your feedback!

Kind regards,
Your Elvenar Team

As an early chapter player (IV) who generally only opens 6-8 provinces, I am happy about the time savings. To me this is the biggest change. I don't like spending an hour or so fighting each day. I can't comment on the frustration of folks with higher level cities in this thread, who auto-fight or cater through dozens of provinces because I think their concerns are going to be different than mine. I enjoy manual fighting, and it does make a difference. This morning I tried to auto-fight a battle and lost...then I went in on manual with the same lineup, took advantage of the terrain and lost half of one squad. BUT when I am manual fighting 24 battles, that is a big chunk of times. Can't imagine doing that with 10 provinces x 4 battles.

There is one point that puzzles me:

The difficulty of a Tournament province no longer exclusively increases for each level in the Tournament, but now also with each Province, providing a steady increase in difficulty with each Province and level completed.

I am misunderstanding something. In the current tournament, there is already a continuous increase in difficulty with each province opened: my round 1 in province 6 is significantly harder than my round 1 in province 1. The implication of the description is that is currently not the case. It is not just squad sizes getting bigger for both me and those shady characters, the enemy squads will often have higher rankings (number of stars) in the later provinces too. My ratio of losses are higher in the higher provinces. This is not just a squad size thing.

It looks like the description is saying that round 2 in province 1 will be incrementally harder than round 1 in province 6. Is that what you are trying to say?

However the play feels, I am looking forward with curiosity to see how the changes play out. Reworking my pattern itself will be fun, and the time savings are a huge bonus for me (I hope).

 

[DeletedUser14792]

while interesting to read and I do like to keep up, it's mostly going to be a "wait and see" and a forming of my own opinions. Change, though not always comfortable, is always good for both our mental stimulation and acuity

 

[DeletedUser19458]

We're very interested in your feedback

Are you? Inno's communication strategy is a 1 way street, so as far as we can tell, Inno doesn't care what we have to say.

 

[LutherTheHairy]

it would be nice to actually know what they have done and what exactly effects what vs guessing .. has there ever been a chart with x amount of expansion do this x amount of wonders will effect that ?

Minmax gamer has reverse engineered algorithms used to calculate enemy squad size and catering values for spire and the tournament. It is a bit hard to follow because you have to read several threads, but his CAL (City Advancement Level) equation is the core of it. Your squad size (and thus the enemy and catering costs) is linearly proportional to this number.

https://minmaxgame.com/city-advancement-level-model-2020/

The equation is composed of several terms multiplied together. Each AW level (so 1 AW at level 10 and another at level 5 would be 15 levels) appears to increase costs and squad size by 0.3%

Expansions have a similar size effect. Expansions increase it as a ratio of the number of new expansions over the number you currently have. There is a base subtraction of 4. You start with 6 so this value ends up being 2 in a starting city. When you add your first expansion, this value becomes 3...everything just got 50% bigger! But if you add a 5x5 expansion to a city with 25 5x5s already to get to 26, now the change is going to only be 4% bigger. ALSO, purchased expansions end up having a smaller impact. A city composed entirely of purchased expansions plus the original 6 5x5 areas, will have a noticeably smaller squad size.

For details on how CAL impacts tournaments and Spire, this blog entry is your jumping off point.

It provides an overview and then links to different blogs on subsections.

https://minmaxgame.com/tournament-and-spire-requirements-2020/

I have not quantitatively confirmed that MinMax's equations are correct, but qualitatively they seem about right with the caveat I have not built an AW yet.

I believe MinMax has gathered data from many cities probably cataloguing their content using a script like Elvenstats' (and maybe getting inputs from city owners on their squad sizes if that is not available via the script). MinMax could then perform a multidimensional fit to the data with a free parameter for each item that appears to change squad size. I imagine a trial and error process where MinMax kept adding possible free parameters until the fit was perfect (and removing them if the fit was overconstrained), but for all I know there is still some scatter in the data relative to the prediction.

@MinMax Gamer

 

[Pheryll]

If the live implementation reflects the Beta (and international implementation) then you will have the following.

The difficulty, both in the number of troops you bring into the fight and the ratio of enemy troops to yours, is based on a diagonal (eg. 3-1, 2-2, 1-3) where the number of stars and the province number total the same number.

There is one encounter per tournament province, the enemy always occupies 5 hexes (same as your army). Each week has a theme emphasizing different ratios for unit types (light range, mage, etc.). Within each unit type all units are selected at random.

The equation determining the base number of troops you bring in is of the form: Exponential function(mandatory research) * Linear function(city size) * linear function(AW levels). As the enemy unit equation is proportional to yours, a higher number means more losses.

 

[qaccy]

I'm at the end of chapter 15. I haven't started Embassies since there's no direct benefit (in terms of troop upgrades) and the AWs are irrelevant to me. So I have tons of space I don't need other than for events. Unless chapter 17 is worth pursuing, my journey through the tech tree has already ended.

Regarding AWs, there are some that might be beneficial in some ways, but if they don't add to either fighting or catering ability while adding to the difficulty, they are now pointless. So for me, that means not using any that don't directly impact my ability to fight or provide population.

This is pretty much what I was looking for you to comment on. Anyone saying that advancement is now 'pointless' just because it also scales up cost/difficulty in tournaments (and the Spire) is, at best, not seeing the whole picture here. There are still plenty of things unlocked by advancing and they continue to provide the same benefits they always have. To me, hearing you initially say you're going to 'stop research' means you're never going to research any future military improvements either, which is the most clear-cut example of why I think that mentality is just wrong. But IMO, it applies to everything else too as it's all more or less balanced together.

The formula for increasing squad size based on adding tech, expansions and AW levels is too punitive and they are unreasonably hitting the highest investors into the game. I think the break even is around 2500 points based on doing all 6 levels and if you typically score higher than that, the tournament will be more difficult.

The old tournament had level 1 with difficulty where the enemy squad size was 85% the size of yours for all provinces. Level 2 the enemy squad size was the same, level 3 - 115%, level 4 - 130%, level 5- 145%, and level 6 - 160%. A lot of player did not play level 6 or as much of level 6 because of difficulty, and the big rewards from the old tournament were from 100% and 145% difficulty levels.

With the new tournament anything you do on level 5 past province 14 is more difficult for the same rewards as what you had in the old tournament, and on level 2, by province 8 it is more difficult than what level 2 used to be.

Every single encounter past the following provinces and levels is more difficult than level 6 of the old tournament:
Level 1 province 22
Level 2 province 21
Level 3 province 20
Level 4 province 19
Level 5 province 18
Level 6 province 17

The increase in difficulty is 3.6% per province. By province 33 only level 1 is under 200% difficulty. Many players only play to level 5, 145% difficulty, so 200/145-1 is 38% more difficult by province 33, and no easy levels.

So, the squad size used to be based on the squad size techs, now, every time you do a tech, your squad size increases, and that probably isn't a problem, but it is compounded by every time you place an expansion or level an AW. The feedback on beta has overwhelmingly been that the penalty for advancing your game is too high and you can have over 400% difference in squad size for players at the same place in the tech tree.

On beta one of my teammates went from being able to play all open provinces to getting about 40 provinces, but he spends twice as much time on the tournament now because it is all manual battle and at least 6 military boosts. I suspect it is almost impossible to get past around province 30 without manual battle.

Before the new tournament on beta, I would play level 1 and 2 to 40-45 provinces, all that I had open, and then maybe 10-15 provinces for the other levels, but only played the level 6 to province 9. I was building resources. I tried that with the new tournament and I wiped out about half of my surplus resources that I spent months building up in a single tournament. And this is an improvement?

One of my strong teammates on beta decided he would give Inno 3 weeks to fix this monstrosity that they have raped the power of our cities and he was so mad he deleted everything and quit over this.

I will not be spending any more money on this game because of this change. This is a massive take from probably the top 100 players of the tournament on every server.

The thing is, none of that is really relevant to what I was pointing out. Tournaments have both been fundamentally changed and significantly rebalanced, but I'm saying that the notion that one should stop advancing their city 'because it makes tournaments harder' is frankly ridiculous. Players are only looking at the comparison between what they were able to do with tournaments before compared to now, which, yes, is pretty much a lot less than before. However, the calculations for determining the player's squad size in tournaments (and the Spire) in no way indicate that it's better to stop advancing so that these numbers don't go up. The benefits of growing your city outweigh the 'drawback' here.

 

[Pheryll]

However, the calculations for determining the player's squad size in tournaments (and the Spire) in no way indicate that it's better to stop advancing so that these numbers don't go up. The benefits of growing your city outweigh the 'drawback' here.

After chapter 15 there is not much to look at as far as benefits. Multiplying wonders and city size, instead of adding these factors, has made their impact the same percentage increase regardless of how far you progress, and the research part of the difficulty far exceeds the training speed increase from leveling up your buildings.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Spoiler: risen&qaccy quotes

Feedback regarding the new difficulty formula on Beta and EN servers has been overwhelmingly negative and players have provided extensive alternative options for consideration but have seemingly been ignored. Please provide transparency regarding how the tournament difficulty will be determined.

1. If expansions are included in the formula, I will NEVER buy another expansion.
2. If AW levels are included, I will focus only on AWs that help me and abandon all others.
3. If every research completed adds to the difficulty, I will stop all progression on the tech tree.

If all 3 compound upon each other, what incentive do I have to progress at all? And consequently, if others do likewise, how long will players retain interest in the game?

1. Are you saying that the extra space provided by an expansion is not worth a cost increase in tournaments?
2. Isn't that what you're supposed to do anyway? Why would you place anything in your city that doesn't help you?
3. Related to #1. Advancing in research and the benefits granted by such is somehow worse than having a slight cost increase for tournament encounters?

@qaccy
1. Yes, some expansions helpimprove your city in the tournament since space lets you upgrade your barracks, or add factories for catering etc. but if you use space for decoration, FA, events, or settlements, those are going to hurt you going forwards. Buying space used to either help you, or at worst was neutral.
2. Again, some AW help your city with tournaments, some like the BTG do not. This comes down again to space hurting you.
3. Yet again, some techs increase your abilities in the tournament, most do not. Inno claims the balance favors progress, but they are mistaken.

A few points of clarification:
Yes, choices should matter, that's what makes games interesting, but the choice to not advance or grow or improve shouldn't be encouraged.
Inno's basic mistakes in their calculation are conceptual. E.g. if you upgrade a wonder that increases your catering ability by 1.1% and increases the costs by 1% then inno thinks this is a win for the player. The problem is if you don't cater 100% of the time then that 1.1% drops well below the cost increase and you have hurt yourself by upgrading your wonder.
--------------------------------------
The old system was simple:
"oh these SS techs will make the tournament a little harder, so I better push on and get that next barracks upgrade"
and either the barracks upgrade made you better than you were before, or not quite.
If it wasn't quite enough, you could hang out for a bit and "grind" by upgrading wonders, clearing the map for expansions to increase goods productions, etc. Many options were there and they were all good.

Now every choice comes with a downside that almost always outweighs the good because each difficulty increase is multiplied by each other and affects both catering and fighting but the upsides do not.

 

[hvariidh gwendrot]

i see the whole picture .. it says if you have done what logically makes a city better (wonder upgrades to increase troop capabilities like training time health combat strength and goods production and expansions so you can add more space in to a city for growth) instead of those things helping they are penalty strokes, compounded against you for doing the other things that logically would advance and help a city .. i'll wait and see but seems totally backwards to how a city builder game should be

 

[Arkadia]

I didn't read much into this, but wondering what do we know about the rewards? cause the main incentive doing a bunch of the tourney has been the KPs. i hope it will be still worthwhile ....don't want to get stuck w a pile of worthless rewards like the the spell frags and PP instants in the Spire

 

[Arkadia]

@SoggyShorts it's sooo good to see you back! <3 <3 <3

 

[BrinDarby]

On Expansions/city space ......
You (Inno) wants to get revenue thru expansions.... even ones bought
with Spire diamonds ( that drains them off and just costs ppl down the road )
and revenue thru sales during events with ""new & kewl bldgs"" ( that need
space in your city ) .... then Expansions never....... I say never should count against
you in any formula for difficulty... Thats counterproductive from a buisness
standpoint, let alone a logical one.......
If you want to encourage AWs, that again........... Takes Space !!!!!!!!!! to place....

I think myself, Soggy, Gwen.... all ordered Spacely Sprockets...
why were we sent Cogswell Cogs ??? If.......if.....the general consensus
is correct, then Inno celebrates what we hate.... Why ??

It used to be, if you as a consumer were going to call the owner/franchisee
over a instore problem it held weight.... nowadays the parent company/owner
now rewards indifferent service because thats what is trained for....

It does seem @ every turn, whatever your goal is around here, Inno has made
it as hard as possible for you to login and simply enjoy playing the game....
but they're really good @ giving us exceptional eye-candy........

I've been waiting for the changes, not progressing, and will pour over any data
I can to determine value of progression, but if its take 2 steps forward and 3 steps back
then I will add my insignificant ( by Inno ) voice to the R-U-Serious Inno, really ???? camp.

 

[Pheryll]

I didn't read much into this, but wondering what do we know about the rewards? cause the main incentive doing a bunch of the tourney has been the KPs. i hope it will be still worthwhile ....don't want to get stuck w a pile of worthless rewards like the the spell frags and PP instants in the Spire

If you are looking at pushing a large number of provinces at 2 star, then you will see a decrease in your ability to gain KP as the difficulty pushes you more toward a pyramid (or diagonal) way of advancing.

 

[DeletedUser24282]

I have several concerns. First, separating the military production queues was a good change. But there was no compensating change in supplies required. Coins have always been easier to restock than supplies because there are more ways to get them. Now it's even more unbalanced and producing troops in more than one building leaves you with no supplies by the end of the day.

Second, the changes reduce the difficulty of lower province later rounds, while increasing the difficulty of higher province early rounds. When there's a 16-hour wait between rounds many players never reach the last round or two. The result is harder fights to reach the same points.

Third, for years the major focus of tournaments has been the type of enemies faced and preparing for them. Even being able to focus on two or three types, it's been a struggle to produce enough troops throughout the tournament. Now we have to produce all troop types for every tournament, even if some are more "likely" than others.

Fourth, many players autofight, particularly mobile. What if there are five types of enemies? The AI works best when you can use five of a kind; I don't think it can handle fighting with five different troops.

Fifth, magnificant mage and enlightened light range buildings are obsolete. There's no point in crafting a building that may or may not help in any given encounter. Keep unleashed unit upgrades and add a general troop attack increase. Move dwarven armorer to the magic academy because they're too rare in the spire and many players don't get many chests.