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Discussion Tournament Changes

edeba

Well-Known Member
Anyways, Hope you guys have found a way to enjoy the game sense the changes. I am personally much more happy without the game in my life and still feel cheated by this company.
You were cheated by this company. Make no mistake, what they did was switch a luxury model for something ready for the dump.
 

edeba

Well-Known Member
I'd bet anything that it's all just statistics.

"90% of players spend 90% of the money in the first 9 months of play"

All of those "9"s above are made up, but Inno knows what they are with 0.00001 accuracies, and they "care" accordingly.
There are some very nice moderators on these forums, but we can't forget that they are basically volunteer players, and the ones making decisions are suits answering to shareholders.
There was an actual report something like that in Inno's documents based on two years.
 

Arkadia

Well-Known Member
Just curious if there's any news of changes being made to this ridiculous tweak.

It is heartbreaking to see players leave the game because of it.
It is also heartbreaking to see players getting rid of Ancient Wonders they have worked hard to level up, because they are being penalized for advancements.

Not to mention what was the point to it?
 

Kawhi is a Raptor

Active Member
Just curious if there's any news of changes being made to this ridiculous tweak.

It is heartbreaking to see players leave the game because of it.
It is also heartbreaking to see players getting rid of Ancient Wonders they have worked hard to level up, because they are being penalized for advancements.

Not to mention what was the point to it?
thankful i'm only in ch 13 - just deleted my lvl 7 BTG which is honestly nothing compared to what others have had to turf
 

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
This is my attempt to make sense of how the new calculation of the Base Tournament Squad Size, BTSS, compares to the old method which used Squad Size Techs, SST. The values in the graph are for the end of each chapter.

In the old method, each SST completed adds 3 times its tech number to the squad size. When you start the game, the squad size is 6. This makes it easy to compute. The BTSS is 20% of that value computed at the end of the chapter. It was 5%, but there were 4 battles then.

For the new calculation I've used MinMax's spreadsheet to compute the values. Since there are several inputs into his eq. I've had to make some assumptions which basically give what I think of as the low end values for each chapter.
  • Boost: For simplicity I've used 700% boost for all chapters. The first chapters haven't reached that level, but their BTSS is so small, it doesn't matter.
  • Expansions: I've used the sum of all expansions from techs in the chapter plus those gained by only completing the number of provs to move to the next chapter.
  • Premium Expansions: This is probably a low number for most people. Chapter 5 is where I add 1 premium, but have only added 6 by the end of chapter 17.
  • Ancient Wonder Levels: I start with 2 in chapter 2 and increased the number completed in each chapter in a way that seemed low, but reasonable to me. By the end of chapter 17 it is 300, which is probably low for most people.
  • Required techs: This is just what it says. Actually, except for chapter 17 I used the number of techs for the next chapter before any tech is done. For chapter 17, I used 30 as the number of required techs. Recounting, there are actually 29 required techs in ch 17 which would lower the squad size by almost 1/2 a percent for its BTSS.
  • Race: Elf. There is only a tiny difference between elf and human. Since most people are elven, I used that.
1616950949377.png
The graph surprised me in that only at chapter 17's end did the MinMax eq. exceed the No Optional SST value. I think this is because people have more than 6 premium expansions and, more importantly, more than 300 AW levels. I've seen a city with over 1000. As a result, I created a graph which shows the BTSS for a city at the end of chapter 17 with the AW levels growing from 300 to 1000. The lower line is for no premium expansions. The other is for all 39 of these expansions.
1616951051784.png
Having all the expansions increases the BTSS by 22%. Also, going from 300 to 1000 AW levels, slightly more than doubles your BTSS from 1002 to 2109 with no premiums and 1225 to 2579 with all of them.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
This is my attempt to make sense of how the new calculation of the Base Tournament Squad Size, BTSS, compares to the old method which used Squad Size Techs, SST. The values in the graph are for the end of each chapter.

In the old method, each SST completed adds 3 times its tech number to the squad size. When you start the game, the squad size is 6. This makes it easy to compute. The BTSS is 20% of that value computed at the end of the chapter. It was 5%, but there were 4 battles then.

For the new calculation I've used MinMax's spreadsheet to compute the values. Since there are several inputs into his eq. I've had to make some assumptions which basically give what I think of as the low end values for each chapter.
  • Boost: For simplicity I've used 700% boost for all chapters. The first chapters haven't reached that level, but their BTSS is so small, it doesn't matter.
  • Expansions: I've used the sum of all expansions from techs in the chapter plus those gained by only completing the number of provs to move to the next chapter.
  • Premium Expansions: This is probably a low number for most people. Chapter 5 is where I add 1 premium, but have only added 6 by the end of chapter 17.
  • Ancient Wonder Levels: I start with 2 in chapter 2 and increased the number completed in each chapter in a way that seemed low, but reasonable to me. By the end of chapter 17 it is 300, which is probably low for most people.
  • Required techs: This is just what it says. Actually, except for chapter 17 I used the number of techs for the next chapter before any tech is done. For chapter 17, I used 30 as the number of required techs. Recounting, there are actually 29 required techs in ch 17 which would lower the squad size by almost 1/2 a percent for its BTSS.
  • Race: Elf. There is only a tiny difference between elf and human. Since most people are elven, I used that.
The graph surprised me in that only at chapter 17's end did the MinMax eq. exceed the No Optional SST value. I think this is because people have more than 6 premium expansions and, more importantly, more than 300 AW levels. I've seen a city with over 1000. As a result, I created a graph which shows the BTSS for a city at the end of chapter 17 with the AW levels growing from 300 to 1000. The lower line is for no premium expansions. The other is for all 39 of these expansions.
Having all the expansions increases the BTSS by 22%. Also, going from 300 to 1000 AW levels, slightly more than doubles your BTSS from 1002 to 2109 with no premiums and 1225 to 2579 with all of them.
Do you see the scary steep blue line?
SST was already at a point where it became unmaintainable because it grew faster and faster, but look how quick that blue line is getting out of control. it's already steeper then anything else.

Also there have been so many changes that comparing old STT vs New STT is like comparing an apple to a truck (it's worse than a pear).
But it does show how bad the new formula is when you look at the blue line so that comparison is nice.
Give it 3 more chapters and that line will rocket sky high.

Could you make a hypothetical graph with 3 extra chapters based on patters of the previous chapters? lets say 4 extra SS research and 29 extra madatory researches
I wonder how bad that blue line would really be.
 
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Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
Could you make a hypothetical graph with 3 extra chapters based on patters of the previous chapters? lets say 4 extra SS research and 29 extra madatory researches
I wonder how bad that blue line would really be.
I'll look at doing that graph using 4 extra mandatory SSTs, 29 mandatory researches, 4 more expansions and 30 more AWs per chapter. I'm sure the new equation will overtake the old method. Once the exponential dominates an equation, it rapidly runs away from any polynomial one. I was just surprised that it's only at the end of chapter 17 for people who aren't one of the top line players that it gets bad. I have 30 premium expansions and 340 AW levels, so am a little above the red line and know it will only get worse. The second graph shows how it affects those players the most. Their blue line is already well above the old SST method.

… and this isn't even getting into the damage the change in difficulty in the new method.
 

jesikrey

Active Member
Gosh... these graphs make me not want to continue playing.. Chapter 15 is already a struggle with all the supplies requested... and to see how insane these numbers get, yikes. I'm gonna be in chapter 15 for at least a year lol
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
I'll look at doing that graph using 4 extra mandatory SSTs, 29 mandatory researches, 4 more expansions and 30 more AWs per chapter. I'm sure the new equation will overtake the old method. Once the exponential dominates an equation, it rapidly runs away from any polynomial one. I was just surprised that it's only at the end of chapter 17 for people who aren't one of the top line players that it gets bad. I have 30 premium expansions and 340 AW levels, so am a little above the red line and know it will only get worse. The second graph shows how it affects those players the most. Their blue line is already well above the old SST method.

… and this isn't even getting into the damage the change in difficulty in the new method.
Thanks.

I do not think you can say it's easier than the old system.
It just works differently and the new system is in every way more difficult (as it was intended) the further you get in provinces the more it differs from the old system. you comparison might work for province 1 or so but I not really for province 40.


That said such a graph might be great to throw at the developers to show them that there new system is already out of date and no longer applicable to the game as it's already in runaway mode.

I was wondering where on the scale we were, but wasn't aware the situation was already this bad.
 

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
One of the reasons I'm still playing the game is I like the challenge the chapters bring. I really miss being able to do as well in the tourneys as far as getting KP, but overall I do well in the world. So, I'll continue to do the chapters until it's impossible to move forward. It takes more KP for each AW level and I'm topping out on the important ones for battle. That also becomes a dead end.
you comparison might work for province 1 or so but I not really for province 40.
It certainly doesn't show the effect of getting to the higher provs. It just the BTSS: Prov 1, round 1. Old method Prov 40, round 1 the enemy brings 85% the number of troops you bring. The new way it's 208%, so almost 2 and a half what it was. I liken the effect of difficulty to running into a huge pillow, one that's large enough to fill the hallway. You run into it and think how easy it is It's even easier than the old way, for a very short while (prov 7). It slowly gets more difficult until you have smashed that pillow into the wall behind it and you can go no further. It's taken all your energy to do that (eaten your troops) so you can't do it again for a few weeks and you resign yourself to not pushing that pillow as hard. In the old method, there wasn't a wall behind the pillow and you could push until you ran out of hallway. It just took 4 times as many steps.

Now off to do another graph...
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
One of the reasons I'm still playing the game is I like the challenge the chapters bring. I really miss being able to do as well in the tourneys as far as getting KP, but overall I do well in the world. So, I'll continue to do the chapters until it's impossible to move forward. It takes more KP for each AW level and I'm topping out on the important ones for battle. That also becomes a dead end.

It certainly doesn't show the effect of getting to the higher provs. It just the BTSS: Prov 1, round 1. Old method Prov 40, round 1 the enemy brings 85% the number of troops you bring. The new way it's 208%, so almost 2 and a half what it was. I liken the effect of difficulty to running into a huge pillow, one that's large enough to fill the hallway. You run into it and think how easy it is It's even easier than the old way, for a very short while (prov 7). It slowly gets more difficult until you have smashed that pillow into the wall behind it and you can go no further. It's taken all your energy to do that (eaten your troops) so you can't do it again for a few weeks and you resign yourself to not pushing that pillow as hard. In the old method, there wasn't a wall behind the pillow and you could push until you ran out of hallway. It just took 4 times as many steps.

Now off to do another graph...
so not forget it's also that the size of your squads become huge.

province 90 was like 4.5x your SS. lets do that times 4 and 5 tourament squads and we are talking about 90 squads on the field.
The new format reaches 100 squads i think well before province 40. So it's not just the 85-160 vs 208% difficulty it's also about how much you need to field.

The main reason why ignoring non mandatory squad size research was to limit losses as you had to field less units then someone who did research them. that's why comparing the old SST vs the new SST is uncomparable.
Even if you have a lower base SST, the actual amount you field in a battles as you progress trough the provinces is quickly going far far away from the old SST

But that blue line, the fact that we already seem to be on the steep end of the curve is a really bad sign. and shows how a good idea (making it easier overall) went really sour really quick. this formula unless they are comming out with a huge spin we havent forseen like an exponential increase in unit productions and supply productions or something like that.

This formula simply cannot be sustained in a conventional way
 

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
Here is the expanded graph. I didn't continue the "No Optional SST" line. At the end of chapter 19 blue has just passed the SST graph. However, this is what I'd consider low ball as the "Premium Expansions" graph shows. BTW, that's an wrong name for that graph. It should be "Effect Increasing AW Levels has on BTSS at the end of Chapter 17". (Maybe a shorter). My bad in naming it. :(

1616960306814.png
There are so many variables in the equation that it's impossible to capture in a few graphs. Something will always be hidden even doing a large series of graphs showing the effect of one factor or another. Sill in the end, it's the exponential factor which increases your BTSS by almost 1/2% with each tech while not changing anything else. The other factors just exacerbate the situation.
So it's not just the 85-160 vs 208% difficulty it's also about how much you need to field.
Correct. If you push too hard, it is very difficult to rebuild enough troops in time for the next tourney. Each prov adds another BTSS to the number of troops you commit to battle. Also each round adds another BTSS. The difficult increase leads to you having a larger percentage of loss in each battle. By that I mean if the difficulty goes up by 10% you lose more than 10% more troops. This begins with prov 7 in round 1. By prov 23 the difficult is more than in round 6 in the old method. It gets to be insane the farther you go until you will lose every battle.

A lot of this is old news. I just hadn't seen a visual showing how the BTSS grows compared to the old method with relatively conservative progress in the other factors used in the equations. The second graph in the first post here shows the effect of AW levels and premium expansions and how they affect the BTSS. If I had done the graph with more premium expansions and AW levels, it would have surpassed the the SST lines much sooner.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
you should plot the cost vs production of units lol.
From chapter 14 to 20 you need 4 times more units.

I am pretty sure we do not get 400% more unit production.

from chapter 14 to 17 you need double the units for the same result according to your plot.
In the same time training speed goes from 350 to 500 a 43% increase

That last chapter was ~ 30% increase in troopsize and unit production increased 11%

It's not hard to see where this is going but when you plot those 2 next to eachother. it becomes really apparent.
 

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
I'm plotted out for now. :eek: Besides, cost vs production is variable depending on level of SimSap and AWs which increase production speed, use of brown bears which involves number of time and supply instants, number of orcs, phase of the moon, etc., etc., etc. :eek::eek:
Ch 15 gave us 3 stars in 3 units. One of which they immediately nerfed because it was too powerful. Maybe it was for the old style tourneys. Now, nothing is powerful enough. I want the Chuck Norris unit.
 

Heymrdiedier

Active Member
Here is the expanded graph. I didn't continue the "No Optional SST" line. At the end of chapter 19 blue has just passed the SST graph. However, this is what I'd consider low ball as the "Premium Expansions" graph shows. BTW, that's an wrong name for that graph. It should be "Effect Increasing AW Levels has on BTSS at the end of Chapter 17". (Maybe a shorter). My bad in naming it. :(

There are so many variables in the equation that it's impossible to capture in a few graphs. Something will always be hidden even doing a large series of graphs showing the effect of one factor or another. Sill in the end, it's the exponential factor which increases your BTSS by almost 1/2% with each tech while not changing anything else. The other factors just exacerbate the situation.

Correct. If you push too hard, it is very difficult to rebuild enough troops in time for the next tourney. Each prov adds another BTSS to the number of troops you commit to battle. Also each round adds another BTSS. The difficult increase leads to you having a larger percentage of loss in each battle. By that I mean if the difficulty goes up by 10% you lose more than 10% more troops. This begins with prov 7 in round 1. By prov 23 the difficult is more than in round 6 in the old method. It gets to be insane the farther you go until you will lose every battle.

A lot of this is old news. I just hadn't seen a visual showing how the BTSS grows compared to the old method with relatively conservative progress in the other factors used in the equations. The second graph in the first post here shows the effect of AW levels and premium expansions and how they affect the BTSS. If I had done the graph with more premium expansions and AW levels, it would have surpassed the the SST lines much sooner.
Can i assume that this plot is with 0 wonderlevels, and minimal amount of explansions placed? cause honestly from my experience that blue line goes up way faster way sooner. :)
 

Yogi Dave

Well-Known Member
Can i assume that this plot is with 0 wonderlevels, and minimal amount of explansions placed? cause honestly from my experience that blue line goes up way faster way sooner. :)
No. The plot starts with 2 AW levels in ch 2 and grows to 300 by the end of ch 17. After that there are 30 AW levels for the projected 3 chapters. The AW additions are fairly small for the early chapters but do increase to the 30 per chapter, with the exception of the chapter just before seeds become available having several more. As for expansions you are basically correct. They are the ones from all techs and those required to move into the next chapter. Also, a few premiums are added to having 6 by the end of chapter 14 and no more added after that. All expansions are placed.
 

ET-inf3rno

Well-Known Member
The more I thought about this, are you talking about the squad size in the 1st prov round 1? That's what the plots are. Or are you talking about how it gets too hard to do the upper provs? If so, that is the difficulty factor.
It is not more difficult for me. I just did 15k this week and I could have done even 20k if I wanted to. It takes a massive amount of time in later provinces, because we can no longer do auto without risking to lose everything, still it is just 6 hours instead of 24 hours a week we had in the old system for this kind of points, so I am happy with it. I do auto maybe up to 25 provinces or 14 without many booster buildings. The real strategy to win this is upgrading the time warp and polar bears and placing the booster buildings on friday or saturday, so you can use them twice. For me only MMM is an issue, I got a lot of UUU and DA and just enough ELR atm. A month ago I was low on ELR and got enough MMM, so it is hard to predict, maybe it depends on which tournament I do. I removed all AWs I don't really need to reduce AW levels and upgraded my simia to level 35. The martial monastery, needles, flying academy will be the next ones. I am not sure about the victory springs and heroes forge. I'll need the toads too, because I operate a lot with frogs. I don't think I'll upgrade my dragon abbey, I can increase mage damage with MMM, so unless I run out of those frequently, I'll keep it on level 1.