Knowledge Point Clubs - an analysis

[DeletedUser61]

I'm speculating that Tournament Arenas will operate very much like Ancient Wonders, so I'm expecting to see a major infrastructure release that it wasn't possible without giving away too many secrets.

• We have an inventory now, in Beta, as part of the Magic Academy release. Dollars to Donuts that we'll have Knowledge Point packets within the month.
• I'm not quite as optimistic about having a history for each Ancient Wonder, but in a formal club you'd be checking the totals daily in any case, so the history is an administrative convenience, not a practical necessity.
• A global list of all Ancient Wonders, and their current status? I may be dreaming, but I'm still hopeful because a similar global list was added in FoE less than a year ago, and our developers probably understand why the FoE developers found the global list to be necessary.

 

[DeletedUser594]

Kp packages are a must and ASAP. KatWijk we have your spreadsheet on up for consideration right now on Winyandor. We were doing the 8days a week style swap with heavy contributions from the owner added into the mix. But we twice had non-members push into contention. Personally I would like to see AW's with the option to restrict entrants, by choice to fellowship/neighborhood only. I suspect that was the original idea perhaps before the neighborhood problems became apparent.
The owner of this AW and the KP swap crew had brought the building up in points when two from a different fellowshipo jumped in left us in an awkward position.
No one want to carry to completion a building that's been locked up by non members
Last night we had an interesting set up - here's the numbers for the Home and Away teams
310 levels it we are at 230 so only 80 kp left. If we had a third on we could have gone with all three making rune spots but we didn't--players 1&4 were on and had to decide to sit on it for a day or go for it not knowing what away team would do. to get all 3 we need to spit 80 points 3 ways to get the 3 H players over 40...but we didn't prepare. So do you make a move with two or play chicken another day?

1. Away team 40 kp (A)
2 Home team 35KP (H)
3.Away team 27 KP (A)
4. Hometeam 13 KP(H)
5.Hometeam 10 KP(H)

It's stressful and it doesn't feel good no matter what you do once you get to that point

 

[DeletedUser43]

It's stressful and it doesn't feel good no matter what you do once you get to that point

This is exactly what I have been saying.


And yes, outsiders can always jump in and grab the runes. This whole thing stinks. It isn't fun, it doesn't feel good, and it takes forever.

 

[DeletedUser61]

Without KP packages, Ancient Wonders are just boiled potatoes. Filling, but boring.

The point of the spreadsheet supported KP Club is that you can RAPIDLY level an AW, once the owner has contributed enough club points to cover his level. So there's NEVER any low hanging fruit. If some outsiders jump in, you just let their points rot for a while, until they've probably wandered off. What you DON'T want to do is provide low hanging fruit. 16%+16%+16%+16%+16% practically begs for an outsider to drop in 20% and capture 1st place. Very bad news. Once you have KP package, then you'll have a whole range of defensive moves.

So 4 or 5 of the folks who are in the club are contributing MOST of their daily allowance to ONE AW, which doesn't leave much room for outsiders in the first place. AND they're watching each other, to see who is going to cave first and burn off some of their KP packets. The objective, really, is to win by as FEW points as possible, so it takes some steady nerves.

And, as I've previously indicated, it's a harmless little game because if you blow your KPs in this round, you're going to be toast during the next round, so nobody can win time after time anyway, but it's STILL a fun little mini-game and you'll find yourself digging deeper than you would have, otherwise, when a capture is within your reach, theory be damned.

 

[DeletedUser1621]

Read through this entire thread, up to this point. Glad I'm only just on the verge of finishing Chapter II, and don't have to worry about any of this for some time. Maybe the "improvements" will have evolved by then, or maybe a good FS will solve the riddle on how to manage upgrading it internally to the FS.

 

[DeletedUser627]

I might feel differently about the Wonders if they occupied a sensible 1x1 grid space. Given that they are placed on the cliffside, all that was necessary on the city grid is a tiny entry point to a hidden tunnel leading to the cliffs. The loss of Relics wouldn't be so atrocious IF we didn't simultaneously have to give up so much grid space.

At some future point, we might all become acclimated to some currently unknown game goals...but as for now, we're accustomed to rank / score, goods production, expansions and building armies. Now they expect us to relinquish rank and goods production for...what? Some attractive graphics? If I had some faith that the developers were planning something fun and enjoyable, I'd follow along and build whatever they suggested - enjoying the anticipation and a bit of mystery. But since I've learned not to trust Inno's plans for us - their fun-sucking black hole being the imperative - I find myself suspicious of any addition / alteration to the game.

And when the additions, like the Wonders, have an overall detrimental impact on our game, how can we come to any optimistic perspective?

Somehow the same exact message was posted twice, so MissAnthropy zapped the redundant message.​

 

[DeletedUser1122]

With average luck, you'll need 9/9 + 9/8 + 9/7 + 9//6 + 9/5 + 9/4 + 9/3 + 9/2 = 16.46 Rune Shards of the proper type for the first 8 slots in the Rune Shard ring, so at that point you'll also have 8.46 broken shards. Consequently 2 more shards will either directly finish your ring OR they'll fill up the broken shard bar which will allow you to fill the final slot. So unless your luck is simply AWFUL, you'll never need more than 18 Rune Shards of the appropriate type to complete a ring.

Is this still accurate?
I'm on lvl 2 on the Sanctuary. It shows I have an inventory of 35 shards. (While on the Bell spire I have 4.)
The other AW I would like to build is Mountain Hall but I have 2 shards and 8 broken ones.
I was born under a bad sign, if it wasn't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all. So no average luck for me!
Possibly how many shards of all sorts, will I have to collect to start my mountain hall?

We have an inventory now, in Beta, as part of the Magic Academy release. Dollars to Donuts that we'll have Knowledge Point packets within the month.

I like my donuts low calorie with extra filling, coffee is OK 2

 

[DeletedUser61]

You may have also gotten a few Rune Shards from helping level other Ancient Wonders, but at the moment AWs and Provinces are the only source.

Having bad luck is just as hard as having good luck but, regardless of how you count, 4*18=72 is still a pretty large number if you're chasing a particular Rune Shard. There's a "nice to have" new tooltip for Rune Shards, in the current Beta release.

The developers have already indicated that we'll be seeing a fairly major upgrade to the messaging module, and we're about due for a major cleanup release. Hopefully we'll see a more elegant user interface before the Provincial Tournaments are released, but I have no idea how InnoGames is tracking on their master schedule for Elevanar.

What's more, the NICE part about being retired is that I can ignore budgets and schedules.

 

[DeletedUser1122]

regardless of how you count

Like you, fingers and toes.

4*18=72 is still a pretty large number if you're chasing a particular Rune Shard

Actual I do not think you are correct. Are you over looking random outcomes such as getting a shard for a single AW multiple times while not getting the desired shard at all? You appear to assume predictability when there is none.
but assuming you are right:
Let's see: 9 shards to complete the ring = 9 * 4 * 18 = 648 to build a ring? (The number seems low doesn't it?
Is it not possible to continue to get rune shards for a completed wonder that will never be used within the current game build?)
Can you only get one group of 10 broken shards or after emptied the broken shard bin does it start filing it again?
Will the fairies make 6*18? Then it will be a real game of dice.
Boy am I hoping I'm wrong.
Is there no way to reduce the various types a shards coming at you that is not required or even usable?

 

[DeletedUser61]

• A Rune Shard either breaks or it doesn't. There are only 2 states, and there's be nothing that indicates other than a 50/50 chance.
• 9*2=18, although that's a bit of a coincidence. The actual math depends on the number of slots that are still available.
  • If you have 9 open slots, then you have 9 chances out of 9 of hitting an open slot.
  • The number of trials you'll need to fill ANY ONE OF THE REMAINING open slots is 9/9 + 9/8 + 9/7 etc.
  • If you have 1 open slot, then you have 1 chance out of 9 of hitting an open slot.
• When you acquire a province, you have an equal chance of getting a Rune Shard for any of the AWs that you can build. 2 for Human/Elven, 2 for Dwarves, and 2 for Fairies (soon).
• You need Rune Shards to open level 1 & 5, and most likely ever 5th level thereafter, once the AWs are uncapped.
• You can accumulate up to 10 broken shards, which can be used in any AW. If you break another shard before you clear the bar, you'll simply lose it.
• The Fairies, and probably every Guest Race hereafter, will add two more Ancient Wonders.
• At the moment we need to fill 18 Rune Wheel slots of each type. Until the AWs are uncapped, more than 36 Rune Shards will just stack up..
• What you CAN control it which AW you help level, and thereby which Rune Shards you'll acquire as a reward.

 

[DeletedUser43]

What you CAN control it which AW you help level, and thereby which Rune Shards you'll acquire as a reward.

Well....IF you end up being the one to donate the proper amount. It isn't easy to guarantee a rune shard.

 

[DeletedUser1122]

QUESTION: In the process of trying to complete a Rune Circle, is it possible that you collect two sets of broken shards that are then used?

QUESTION: [from Wiki] "For example, if you are a Human and want Rune Shards for your Great Bell Spire, you can invest in the Elven Crystal Lighthouse." Is this correlation extended to the Dwarven AW's? Invest in Spire or Lighthouse and get Mountain Halls shards?

QUESTION: [from Wiki] "Broken Shards can be used to reveal all kinds of Runes in any Ancient Wonder! So if you still have them after building one Ancient Wonder you can use them to forge and activate a Rune in a new one!" Broken shards are transferable to any AW but not shards?

more than 36 Rune Shards will just stack up..

The limit of shards you can collect for an AW is 36 after it is completed and/or before it is started.
QUESTION: what does stacked up mean?

 

[DeletedUser61]

1. Rune Shards, in humber equal to the level of the Ancient Wonder, are distributed Round Robin to the top 5 contributors. For a level 7 AW the distribution would be 1,1,1,1,1 + 1,1,0,0,0 = 2,2,1,1,1
2. Every time you have 10 broken shards, a full bar, you should use them, in ANY of your AWs, BEFORE you try to insert any more Rune Shards..
3. Humans will get Human Rune Shards from Elven AWs.
4. Broken shards may be used in any AW. Rune Shards are AW specific.
5. There's no known limit on the number of Rune Shards that you can collect (stack up). But if you only need 18 for level 1 plus 18 for level 2, on average, then the unneeded Rune Shards will just accumulate in your Main Hall. As you can see in an earlier post, I have 41 MM Rune Shards.

 

[DeletedUser]

There is a good use for those runes. They can become broken shards to be used in any Wonder. How? Fill the ruin ring then build the Wonder and sell it again. That will result in a empty rune ring. Which can be filled from the start again and hopefully break as many runes in the process as possible. That is how I filled the last 4 spots in the ring for my mountain hall and I will most likely do the same when the Faerie Wonders become available.

 

[DeletedUser43]

But isn't it true that you lose all the boosted relics you used to build the wonder in the first place? That is a big hit to production of your boosted goods if you do this. Or am I wrong?

 

[DeletedUser626]

a lvl 1 wonder doesn't cost any relics to build, just the runes you've spent to complete the rune circle..

so if you have let's say 55 sanctuary runes and no intention of building one permanently in your city..
and want the indestructible rune for your mountain hall or monastery for upgrading them.

you could use the broken runes from the sanctuary to build the indestructible rune, and when the circle is complete in the sanctuary place it, and sell it to make more broken runes for the indestructible rune.

 

[DeletedUser43]

Ah. I see. Thanks Frostwrym. That makes perfect sense now. I am still learning new things about these wonders!

 

[DeletedUser1122]

Fill the ruin ring then build the Wonder and sell it again. That will result in a empty rune ring. Which can be filled from the start again and hopefully break as many runes in the process as possible. That is how I filled the last 4 spots in the ring for my mountain hall and I will most likely do the same when the Faerie Wonders become available.

OMG you speak a form of english I understand. That answered a nagging question.

QUESTION: [from Wiki] "For example, if you are a Human and want Rune Shards for your Great Bell Spire, you can invest in the Elven Crystal Lighthouse." Is this correlation extended to the Dwarven AW's? Invest in Spire or Lighthouse and get Mountain Halls shards?

Thanks Avatrix

 

[DeletedUser61]

Ancient Wonderless garbage is just that UTTER trash.

This is either Hyperbole just for the sake of Hyperbole, or else you're a rotten analyst.

• If you're already making more goods than you can possibly use, Relics are free.
• If you've already reached the end of your current technology tree, Knowledge Points are free.
• If you're in a swap agreement, Ancient Wonders actually yield an EXTRA 10% for the invested Knowledge Points, plus a few Runes.

Ancient Wonders provide their benefits with ZERO additional support, Other than collecting the free light melee troops from the Dwarven Bulwark, you don't even have to click to collect their benefits.

As such, Ancient Wonders are the best long-term investment in the game.

 

[DeletedUser627]

Katwijk, you're always playing down the road , as you either anticipate the game will be or know it will be based on your whatever sources.

Bag of Riches - and the rest of us - are playing the game now. As things are currently, the only indisputable Wonder of value is the Mountain Hall. The Monastery is questionable, depending on a players' need for units with a small increase in health.

Otherwise, building Wonders presents no benefit. And your analysis also has errors. No one could possibly be making more goods than they can possibly use, since KP can be purchased with goods and be of significant use.