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Your Elvenar Team
Gripe and Bemoan the Horrors of (BAD) Cross-tier (ALWAYS)
DeletedUser22511
Guest
so (not very math genius here)...100 tier 2 goods trade for 250 tier 1 goods?
100 tier 3 goods trade for 200 tier 2 goods? or 500 tier 1 goods?
am I doing math correct here? @@
give me some example to go by....in small number....i'm small NH
DeletedUser23255
Guest
If I’m reading it right....
3rd | 2nd | 1st
1 | 2 | 5
2 | 4 | 10
3 | 6 | 15
4 | 8 | 20
I think if you’re going for 3rd tier and it’s a 1 (3rd) : 5 (1st) ratio you take the amount of the 3rd tier and multiply by 5
So 67 3rd tier goods trading down to 1st tier should be 67 x 5 = 335
Am I doing this right?
3rd | 2nd | 1st
1 | 2 | 5
2 | 4 | 10
3 | 6 | 15
4 | 8 | 20
I think if you’re going for 3rd tier and it’s a 1 (3rd) : 5 (1st) ratio you take the amount of the 3rd tier and multiply by 5
So 67 3rd tier goods trading down to 1st tier should be 67 x 5 = 335
Am I doing this right?
Ashrem
Oh Wise One
shimmerfly
Well-Known Member
I've got some legs in the freezer come on over.
My husband apparently thinks bringing large frozen frog legs home will make me happy
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DeletedUser5521
Guest
Yes
My husband apparently thinks bringing large frozen frog legs home will make me happy
DeletedUser20255
Guest
Yes. the math is right. However note above many wise players no longer accept the 5:2:1 ratio because of the 3rd tier glut. I think the difference is the 5:2:1 ratio was calculated based on the costs of production (I didn't even try to follow the math). But now many are saying T3 are worth less than Tier 2 because of the glut. So it depends whether you want to take current ,arket considerations into account or not.
DeletedUser20255
Guest
ok 100 tier 3 (eg elixir) are worth 200 (tier 2) eg crystal or 500 Tier 1 (steel). But note my disclaimer below. T
his does not take into account supply/demand factors
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
Indeed. I've been trading significant amounts(millions) of T3 at 1:1 for T2 due to both the tavern and winter sets.
DeletedUser22511
Guest
So what's wrong with tier 3 goods?
I still use them to upgrade my buildings and such.
Don't have tavern or winter sets so i'm not sure what 'tier 3 glut' mean....
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
An average player would have
4-5 T1 factories
3-4 T2 factories
2-3 T3 factories
The Tavern was very easy to get and gives close to the same as 3 T3 factories.
This means the average player suddenly has +100% production of T3.
"glut" means the market is flooded.
The winter set was less easy to get but even more powerful if you did.
My set buildings give me roughly
60K T1
60k T2
200K T3
per day. While my city is not average (I've finished the last chapter and I focused on the sets) There are enough players who have a similar imbalance to mess up an already messed up market.
Ashrem
Oh Wise One
It means that my 6x9 carnival set, without spending any supplies, culture, or population (in fact is also gives me a bunch more of some of that) is giving me 28,000 T3, and that's only chapter 11
Edit: dangit! If my work hadn't expected me to work, Soggy couldn't have ninja'd me there.
DeletedUser22511
Guest
does tavern give 100% on all 3 tier 3 goods or just your boosted good?
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
It doesn't give 100% like that.
Lemme explain another way:
3 tier 3 factories with +700% relics boost makes say 50,000 gems per day
The tavern makes 50,000 T3 too.
That's the 100% increase (for players who had 3 T3 buildings)
Enevhar Aldarion
Oh Wise One
I do not see where you are getting 50k gems from for the Tavern. I have the complete set and my Tavern is from chapter 13. When I collect, I get 12,200 elixir, 12,200 dust, and 18,300 gems. I do not see 50k gems in those numbers. Or are you adding all three together and pretending they are all gems?
Deleted User - 3932582
Guest
He didn't say that tavern makes gems, he said tavern makes T3.
All same tier goods are pretty much interchangeable as you can easily exchange them in the trader at 1:1 rate. So I would be indifferent if I'll be producing 10K:10K:10K T3 mix, or just 30K of boost.
Crowella
Well-Known Member
I guess there's something that I am not getting about all this. To me, it's a question of marginal utility. To some smaller players, tier 3 goods have greater marginal utility than they do to a larger player. Maybe because they don't have many manufactories yet or their boost is not high. And because we DON'T have the tavern.
Is this "fair"? Perhaps not in the sense of equal, but if I trade a widget that is worth 60 minutes of work to me for a wodget that is worth 120 minutes of work to me, and you can make a wodget in 60 minutes but it takes you 120 minutes of work to make a widget, everyone is happy. (I am not talking about Elvenar production times here. I'm just using "time" as an understandable currency.
I do get the objections to what are basically price regulations (not being able to post 20:1 trades for tier 2 to tier 3 cross trades for example). But I question how much of a market distortion this is. After all, we can buy non-boosted goods with the wholesaler in exchange for coins and supplies, so this sets some kind of minimum.
I'm curious to see any mathematical modeling anyone has done based on the UTILITY of goods at various levels (as opposed to their COST to produce).
Anyone?
Is this "fair"? Perhaps not in the sense of equal, but if I trade a widget that is worth 60 minutes of work to me for a wodget that is worth 120 minutes of work to me, and you can make a wodget in 60 minutes but it takes you 120 minutes of work to make a widget, everyone is happy. (I am not talking about Elvenar production times here. I'm just using "time" as an understandable currency.
I do get the objections to what are basically price regulations (not being able to post 20:1 trades for tier 2 to tier 3 cross trades for example). But I question how much of a market distortion this is. After all, we can buy non-boosted goods with the wholesaler in exchange for coins and supplies, so this sets some kind of minimum.
I'm curious to see any mathematical modeling anyone has done based on the UTILITY of goods at various levels (as opposed to their COST to produce).
Anyone?
Sir Squirrel
Artist EXTRAORDINAIRE and Buddy Fan Club member
Just wanted to say first off it is best to stay within the tiers for best results in getting your trades taken quickly. You should be producing enough of your boosted goods to trade for the others at each tier. That is the best way to trade. If you are a smaller city and have to post a cross tier trade (from tier 3 for tier 1) because you are short on goods then posting cross tier trades is not a bad thing. Just try to give a little extra. The problem comes when players in later chapters stop making as much tier 1 and 2 and just use cross tier trades to get them goods as this is causing a shortage of the lower tiers! This is how I see it any how!
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Risen Malchiah
Well-Known Member
In addition to the Carnival set, part of the problem is that somehow there's an impression among some players that T1 is needed less in later chapters so at some point, they sell off some T1 factories. But there comes a point (Elementals, Amuni & Constructs in particular) where T1 suddenly becomes massively important again. I struggled to maintain T1 goods during these chapters until I added more T1 factories to keep up. I would be curious to see if the majority of players offering T3 for T1 are in one of those 3 chapters.
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
An excellent idea, but pretty much impossible to guess for an individual.
(note for a macro perspective see the final paragraph)1. You could easily add up exactly how many goods you need for research in each chapter, then
1b) Add up all guest race costs if applicable
2. Get a decent guestimate for how many you need to cater all of the provinces needed to unlock the next chapter
2b) ignore that and assume fighting to clear
3. The main problem: The tournament, as it is responsible for anywhere between 0-99% of your goods consumption depending on playstyle.
Since you did mention it though...time IS the issue.
If we first accept that time&space are completely linked (using 1,000 squares for 24h or 500 squares for 2x24h produces the same) then we simply calculated how much space/time was needed at every stage in the game to make each tier of goods. 16:4:1 was never even close but 5:2:1 was reasonable in most chapters.
Note: the 5:2:1 "conclusion" is largely obsolete now as there have been some pretty huge changes in the years since it was calculated.
Maybe a player needs more of X than Y in chapter Z, but really that's largely irrelevant since everyone in the entire game can make goods at a better ratio than 16:4:1.
Unfortunately, small players' demands almost don't matter to the market at all. Larger players have far more trading partners and outproduce/consume them on such a scale that the supply-demand dynamics are messy.
A little analogy
- Everyone (including mom&pop) owns a farm and per acre they can produce either 5 eggs, 2 bread or 1 milk in a day.
- Mom&Pops have a kid and find that they need 10x as much milk as they do bread or eggs.
- Normally with supply and demand, their situation would have an impact on the market, and trading 5:2:1 would change.
- However, since all new/small families combined only consume 0.0000001% of the goods produced globally their consumption habits have near-zero impact on prices.
Current valuations of goods I believe comes from the following:
- Most goods globally are used in the tournament.
- Most of those goods are from late-stage players.
- The tournament costs in the late stage are pretty close for each tier.*
- This means that the value of tiers(marginal utility) is about equal and the only consideration is the cost to produce which is measured in time/space.
*All attempts that I have seen to track tournament catering costs have failed due to loss of interest or inconsistency in recording, I took a sampling of 100 encounters across 3 accounts with ~2850 SS and there was only a 5% difference. I'd welcome more data, but I'm not willing to put in the time when there is a simple solution(ignore cross-tier trades)