The Elvenar!

[Pheryll]

Anyone else noticed the incredible unbalanced need for goods in the techtree?
The required amounts of sentient goods is already ridiculously high, but it is leaning far too much to the T6 goods. Only some requirements for T4 and T5 goods, but after the first few techs it is ONLY T6 that is required. That also means that the market is being flooded with T6 goods. And that is likely to get worse as more people get to the end of the chapter and no longer have a need for huge amounts of these goods, but still do have those (extra) factories producing them.

For a game where they constantly have been going on about 'balancing' stuff again it seems incomprehensible they would deliberately put in such unbalanced requirements.

The main hall upgrades do require a fair amount of T5 (over 300K per upgrade), but there is much less use of T4 to warrant multiple manufactories. None of it reaches the 400+K T6 requirement for the last city expansion, though.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

...people get to the end of the chapter and no longer have a need for huge amounts of these goods, but still do have those (extra) factories producing them.

Why would anyone reaching the end of the chapter keep T6 they no longer need? There is no use for sentients in the offseason except for the Spire. You can't even cross-trade it with non-sentient goods.

All the people I know who completed the chapter promptly bulldozed/teleported excess sentient production (myself included).

 

[Ashrem]

Why would anyone reaching the end of the chapter keep T6 they no longer need

For converting Seeds into T3?

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

For converting Seeds into T3?

Fair enough. It's a slow process though and I don't see any evidence of that happening en masse, most people prefer the direct production route as far as I can tell. If you look at the top ranked cities (the ones with super high production) that completed the chapter you will see 7/2, 10/3 etc setups with respect to T3/T6. Basically, the same as it used to be before the chapter.

I am considering going that route, and still dropped from 5x T6 down to 2x as I don't require (nor can support) massive goods production comparing to blue cities.

 

[DeletedUser2959]

The main hall upgrades do require a fair amount of T5 (over 300K per upgrade), but there is much less use of T4 to warrant multiple manufactories. None of it reaches the 400+K T6 requirement for the last city expansion, though.

I skipped the last city expansion. Decided I'd rather be done with XV than slog through all that.
Which is not to say I won't go back and do it later... but I doubt it.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

Why would anyone reaching the end of the chapter keep T6 they no longer need? There is no use for sentients in the offseason except for the Spire. You can't even cross-trade it with non-sentient goods.

All the people I know who completed the chapter promptly bulldozed/teleported excess sentient production (myself included).

Think it through 1 step further, what will happen with those factories? If the T6 factories get moved into the inventory, what will be put in that empty spot? Sure, some people will leave it open, but a lot of players do seem concerned with ranking, so they probably will put some of their regular T3 factories back from the inventory, or even expand on those. Mostly because buying KPs for T3 goods is so much more efficient than buying them for T1 or T2 goods. Especially since the ridiculous increase of output on the workshops means one can play with way fewer of those, or can put up way more factories with the same number of workshops.
Alternatively, you'll have players like me who look at their seed-production, which will just be wasted if not used, and just keep an additional sentient-goods factory or 2 (or 3) up and running. Mostly T6, since that's the stuff that is mostly needed and just keep creating it to be able to take trades from FS members and people in the explored area who are just entering that chapter.

 

[qaccy]

I was convinced that I was going to go back to one of each sentient factory after finishing this chapter, but now I'm thinking I might stay at having two of each. It's slower to ramp up compared to normal T1/T2/T3, but T4/T5/T6 do kinda give a second boost in those categories and I've grown used to that convenience. I can also look at the gap between my sentient boost and my remaining unboosted good from each tier and see that sentient decay actually isn't too bad for producing normal goods after all.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

Think it through 1 step further, what will happen with those factories? If the T6 factories get moved into the inventory, what will be put in that empty spot? Sure, some people will leave it open, but a lot of players do seem concerned with ranking, so they probably will put some of their regular T3 factories back from the inventory, or even expand on those. Mostly because buying KPs for T3 goods is so much more efficient than buying them for T1 or T2 goods. Especially since the ridiculous increase of output on the workshops means one can play with way fewer of those, or can put up way more factories with the same number of workshops.

Well, think it through 1 step backwards What was there in place of newly constructed T6 before chapter 15? It's not that T6 got plunked into an empty spot. Ranked players (and most everyone else) had to demolish something in order to build some settlement and ramp up sentient capability. More often than not, it was some T1/T2/T3 manus + maybe some Armories (some sacrificed expiring farms). After chapter was done, they more or less went to the same setup they had after Constructs, i.e. replacing excess sentients with regular production. So yes, they still keep their rankings as manu is replaced with manu, except they have way more regular goods production than sentients. This didn't change with completion of chapter 15. I don't claim seeing all the top cities, but this was the pattern that I observed in a few that I check periodically. As we were talking about excess of T6 post-Elvenar, I don't see evidence of that happening.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

Well, think it through 1 step backwards What was there in place of newly constructed T6 before chapter 15? It's not that T6 got plunked into an empty spot. Ranked players (and most everyone else) had to demolish something in order to build some settlement and ramp up sentient capability. More often than not, it was some T1/T2/T3 manus + maybe some Armories (some sacrificed expiring farms). After chapter was done, they more or less went to the same setup they had after Constructs, i.e. replacing excess sentients with regular production. So yes, they still keep their rankings as manu is replaced with manu, except they have way more regular goods production than sentients. This didn't change with completion of chapter 15. I don't claim seeing all the top cities, but this was the pattern that I observed in a few that I check periodically. As we were talking about excess of T6 post-Elvenar, I don't see evidence of that happening.

Duh...let me see, what was there...sheee...T3 factories. And let me think, what has been a bit of a problem for a while? Oh yes, a huge overabundance of T3 goods.
I used to have 6 T1, that became 5 and 1 T4, then 5 and 2 T4. For a while 4 and 3 T4 and now is 5 and 2 again. I MAY switch that to 6 and 1 again, but don't really need those T1 goods. Not to mention the utterly ridiculous demands for pop for maxing those factories. So I probably will cut down on that a bit.
I used to have 4 T2, that became 4 and 1 T5. Then 3 and 2 T5. When the chapter is done and I will probably go back to 4 and 1..
I used to have 5 T3. That became 4 and 1 T6. Then 3 and 2. Right now it is 2 T3 and 3 T6. Probably will become 3 and 2 after the reorganisation. Maybe 4 and 2, IF I can find the pop for it, but space will be freed up by moving yet more workshops into my inventory because their output is tripled and there is no good way to spend those supplies.
Either way it means more goods for which I have no real use either. I make mostly long runs, but still have about 7 mil of each of my regular non-boosted goods and about 2x that of each of my regular boosted goods, 3x on Dust actually.
Sentient goods however I will be needing to further upgrade my Timewarp and Simia (and probably the 2 for chapter 15 as well) so I will still need those factories anyway.

Armories? I have 3, but probably will cut it down to 2. Same amount of squares, just change of shape. But replacing one with 2 orcnests gives me MORE orcs on a smaller footprint AND without supplies. It will drastically reduce my trainingsize (especially with the SSS at high level) but I'll probably compensate that by starting to invest heavily in the Dwarven Bulwark, which will net me more free troops as well. Since I'll be needing fewer supplies here AND will need fewer workshops that pop can just as well be used to put up yet another factory (or max more T1/T4s)

So either people will put back the T3 factories (which I already mentioned in the post you reacted to, as T3 is so much more efficient for buying kps), or people like me will put back those and still keep some additional sentient goods factories going on to help others get the amounts of T6 goods that are needed in such huge quantities in this chapter and help them out by providing some extra of those.
So either way it is unbalanced again by having more of one type of good. And the overabundance of T3 already was a problem. Many people found the space to squeeze in an additional factory instead of replacing them, so that may be a lasting effect. Especially since the expansions in the techtree only could be unlocked after one had all the guestrace buildings up, and thus generally weren't used for those.

But it doesn't matter what choice one makes. The space will be used again and it will be mostly T3 manufactories, sentient or not. Unbalanced is the word that comes to mind, which will become worse and no doubt then it will suddenly have to be 'fixed'.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

It has been just over 2 months now since chapter 15 went live and I am curious how far other players have gotten who were ready to start the chapter as soon as it was added. I am interested in progress from people who are taking it at an average pace and not the ones who rushed through it.

I have just finished the first Main Hall upgrade and am working on the three factory researches right now. I am on Arendyll, and I think that has given me an advantage in sentient goods available for trade, since this server probably has the most players in chapters 12-15, though my tier 6 boost of Soap has not been to my advantage, having to always post trades giving away an extra 5% or 10% to have my offers taken the same day I post them. Also, I have gotten this far with just one tier 4 factory, 2 tier 5 factories and 2 tier 6 factories, all at level 27. Non-stop MM enchantments and feeding my Storm Phoenix also help with the sentient goods production. Looking at the researches I have left, I think maybe another 2 or 3 months and I will have finished the chapter, which is at least 3 months faster than I initially thought it would take me when I started it.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

@Enevhar Aldarion I was ready when the chapter came out.
Just finished the first upgrade on the Main Hall. Sentient goods are the bottleneck for me. I have 3 T6 factories at lvl 27 running with MM spells constantly, as well as a boost from a lvl 16 Timewarp and a decay reduction from a lvl 12 Simia. And still it takes forever.
2T4 and 2 T5.
Same here too in estimated time of finishing, probably another 2-3 months, though I am considering to put up yet another T6 factory since it mostly is the T6 that's needed for the research (something I posted about earlier).

Btw, I don't consider giving a 5% or 10% discount either a problem or strange. It's why one has boosted goods and non-boosted goods. I never trade without offering a discount.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

@Enevhar Aldarion I was ready when the chapter came out.
Just finished the first upgrade on the Main Hall. Sentient goods are the bottleneck for me. I have 3 T6 factories at lvl 27 running with MM spells constantly, as well as a boost from a lvl 16 Timewarp and a decay reduction from a lvl 12 Simia. And still it takes forever.
2T4 and 2 T5.
Same here too in estimated time of finishing, probably another 2-3 months, though I am considering to put up yet another T6 factory since it mostly is the T6 that's needed for the research (something I posted about earlier).

Btw, I don't consider giving a 5% or 10% discount either a problem or strange. It's why one has boosted goods and non-boosted goods. I never trade without offering a discount.

I forgot about the AWs. I think my Timewarp and Simia are both only level 6 right now.

My other two boosts are Platinum and Obsidian. I have to offer a premium with those far less often than I do with Soap. But since nearly all the research requires the tier 6 goods, that does not surprise me. The tier 4 and 5 are more for the actual building upgrades. I have upgraded the barracks and mercenary camp once each, but I have already maxed out four armories. I am slowly leveling up my residences, having done only a few so far. And I just leveled up one marble factory to level 28 for more boosted marble production for those annoying goods quests for this, and future, events. Oh, and I have not leveled up a single workshop yet because I suddenly had an orc shortage from leveling the other buildings. lol

 

[qaccy]

It's been fairly slow for me. Only just unlocked the mercenary camp upgrades today and that's the deepest I've made it into the research tree on any branch. I do plan to use a lot of portal profits to speed things along though since...those kinda just accumulate, but I'm only using them when I don't have anything going to waste.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

Looking at the researches I have left, I think maybe another 2 or 3 months and I will have finished the chapter, which is at least 3 months faster than I initially thought it would take me when I started it.

Major determinant of time spent in this chapter will be your willingness to dump a lot of Portal Profits in the second half of the chapter. If you want to produce all the research goods naturally (i.e. without PPs), you may find out that this will be your bottleneck and not sentient production. Also, you may not have enough orcs production for inputs.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Major determinant of time spent in this chapter will be your willingness to dump a lot of Portal Profits in the second half of the chapter. If you want to produce all the research goods naturally (i.e. without PPs), you may find out that this will be your bottleneck and not sentient production. Also, you may not have enough orcs production for inputs.

I have been using 99% portal profits for every research that I can and I still have a ton of them in my inventory. Plus I have 7 trading outposts and 3 trading stations out right now, so 7 5% and 3 10% PP every two days are added to my inventory. Also, 4 max level armories producing 1400? orcs every twelve hours and a low level Heroes Forge has kept me going so far. I only almost ran out of orcs because I decided to upgrade buildings when there was no quest requiring it. lol

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

I only almost ran out of orcs because I decided to upgrade buildings when there was no quest requiring it. lol

Well, total orcs requirements if you produce everything is about 450K IIRC - that's just research without any SS upgrades, and no buildings/AW upgrades. Don't know about you, but I wasn't anywhere close to those numbers. With 4x max armories and over longer timeframe it might have been fine. Moot point if you have and want to use PPs.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Well, total orcs requirements if you produce everything is about 450K IIRC - that's just research without any SS upgrades, and no buildings/AW upgrades. Don't know about you, but I wasn't anywhere close to those numbers. With 4x max armories and over longer timeframe it might have been fine. Moot point if you have and want to use PPs.

I think I had at least that many orcs when I started the chapter, plus constant production. I also used the optional squad research to easily complete some of the event quests. But I was not worried about the impact having the max squad size would have on my combat abilities or on my spire squad size.

 

[Mykan]

@Enevhar Aldarion while I was end tech I wasn't prepared in terms of having started building the extra factories that would be needed. Began with only 1 of each sentient factory but a decent level simia, timewarp and PoP, I now have 1 T4, 2 T5 and 3 T6 factories. I have just researched frog princes and planks factory, I have 7 compulsory techs to go and 2 expansions techs. Other than the guest race goods the T6 has been the slowest part. Haven't calculated how long it will take to finish, pretty sure I don't want to know.

Like you I am on arendyll so that is possibly a blessing, most of my trades are gone very quickly. I also have an unusually high amount of orcs (you would swear its an orc town not human, have more than 14 orcs for every human) so no slowing down due to them. Seeds was more of an issue for me when upgrading buildings but was ok if I didn't try to upgrade too many too quickly, lots of people in my fellowship are struggling with enough seeds to power additional sentient factories.

 

[mikeledo]

I have 7 techs left in one city and 10 left in another. I have added a third T6 in both cities and have been adding seed makers wherever I can find them. I reduced my guest race down to 1 wisdom vault and use those 50% portal fills I always seem to get in the spire. I am still waiting on my 100% diamond offer so I can kick this into high gear. I should have had one two months ago. I hope they didn't stop the offers because of the spire. I have enough seeds to run three T-6 24/7 and I run my two T-4's and T-5"s overnight. I usually have enough seeds to do one 30-40K upgrade per day. Still need orcs to upgrade barracks and merc camps. I have 5 and 6 armories I run at 12 hours and do an upgrade every 3-4 days unless the spire eats them up.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

I just realized I am sitting on two complete sets of the production buildings and six of the Academies, and I am barely using any of them because of the portal profits. I think it is time to make some space and get rid of half of them. lol