New Spire of Eternity rewards - discussion thread

[Iyapo1]

Why can't Inno do this one little thing for us and cut back on the spell fragments?

New players need spell fragments.

 

[Yogi Dave]

Non-scroll boosted members of my fellowship have millions of scrolls which they also bemoan having no home for in the trader and so they just...amass.

I take scroll trades in my FS. I no longer take large ones in my neighborhood and feel a bit guilty about that. I have over 17 million scrolls now. That should grow to over 20 million in a month or so. I also produce ink which decays to scrolls so am always trying to sell it before it does, especially since it decays into more scrolls than are used making ink.

I got rid of my moonstone set to make room for the ch 17 trader ships. I'm done with the chapter, but won't put new libraries or endless scrolls down (even with that ever tempting 1 pop. they provide). However, I will put a mana plant, gum tree, moonstone gate farm down. Lots of mana required for ch 17 upgrades.

I actually like that they took PP out as a prize for cities under chapter 6. The supply instants and coin rains are far more useful.

Beta player question: did they keep that change in beta?

Everything went back to the way it was in beta.

I do like that Inno made a change in the spire and that it is temporary. The spire needs to be kept fresh and varied. For one thing, changing things in it gives us new stuff to complain about. The gods know we love that. It also generates an anticipation, a wondering what will come next (will the bear artifacts be coming in the fall?). Many were hoping for something different than the moonstone set. Many were screaming, "No! I don't have a full set yet." Knowing the goodies in the spire will be changing, it may encourage people to do more to get that goody before it goes the way of the dodo bird. The phoenix artifacts are an example of that - if you need them, get 'em while they last. BTW, I started my beta city after the 2nd phoenix event but crafted one and got 3 artifacts last spring. I got 6 more in the spire thus fully evolving my fire chicken.

 

[AtaguS]

I take scroll trades in my FS.

Yes you do I should have mentioned there are generous players within the fs as well. It still feels like putting out a hat...

I do like that Inno made a change in the spire and that it is temporary. The spire needs to be kept fresh and varied.

Yes! The temporary part is a great incentive for people who have been shy to venture too far into the spire. So many players have asked for a chance to evolve their phoenixes and play on a level field, and this was a creative solution. Here's hoping for some Bear arifacts next!

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

New players need spell fragments.

Not just new players
I still need spell fragments, the spire alone is not able to keep up with my crafting.
I do own a level 5 academy for a reason, I want catalists.

I have not placed moonstone set(s) as I got better stuff from the past.

On my other city I also craft a lot, but there I have 11 libraries and a lof of endless scrolls (my booster t2 is scrolls anyway) and the I am swamped in fragments.

I keep feeling strange about all the spell fragments complains, where does all this hatred come from?
I have never seen anyone complain about the millions of T1-2-3 goods they have, or that they have to much seeds/mana/spells or whatever.

Why this focus on spell fragments?
Spell fragments are only a fraction of the rewards you get.

I play a lot of tournaments, but I have never seen that much hatred towards relics and runes. I got 173.898 relics, 50201 runeshards, 243.906.429 regular goods, 2.774.900, 9.337.395 mana, 936687 seeds, 12.301 spells, 11.525% portal profits and much more "other junk"

Should I now climb on the barricades and start complaining about all the junk I got.
if they remove all the junk from the spire i'll be happy. i'll would only get timeboosters, dwarven armouries, diamonds and premium buildings. PERFECT!!!

For those that keep complaining, just accept there are good prizes and lesser prizes. you have to take the good with the bad. without the bad there is no good and all would be "meh" just crappy average. everything boringly the same. stop focussing on 1 thing and look at the whole
and for all sakes, when the spire came out, who where complaining that coin and supply boosters were no prices and who's complaint did some of those change to spell fragments as players suggested?

Yes, players asked for more spll fragments in the spire, it looks like complaining about the white wall and that it should be painted black, and when it's painted black we complain about that it should be painted white.

Make up your damn mind.

 

[SoggyShorts]

I have never seen anyone complain about the millions of T1-2-3 goods they have, or that they have to much seeds/mana/spells or whatever.

Why this focus on spell fragments?

Because they are useless. T1-3 can always be spent on something, KP, catering, given to FS members, something.
Without using diamonds to flip the MA there is a hard limit on how many SF you can spend.

As for the runes and relics, there are plenty of complaints about those too, but the problem isn't as bad. Your numbers are in the 0.0001% of players for relics and runes, but some very average players have 100s of thousands of SF they can't use.

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

Because they are useless. T1-3 can always be spent on something, KP, catering, given to FS members, something.
Without using diamonds to flip the MA there is a hard limit on how many SF you can spend.

As for the runes and relics, there are plenty of complaints about those too, but the problem isn't as bad. Your numbers are in the 0.0001% of players for relics and runes, but some very average players have 100s of thousands of SF they can't use.

Yes there is a limit on how much spellfragments you can spend. but you might not need to craft "that much" to get not enough spellfragments from the spire to keep up. off cource you need a level 5 academy and make constant catalists to reach that stage.

And remember it's a compounding effect the difference between to litte and to much ain't that big.
Each oversupply compounds each week resulting in a large number over time that looks insane . but when you lower the number a little and you are constantly struggling and having to make choices what you can and can't craft.
Untill the introduction of the spire / moonstone set you really had to make hard choices what you could and could not craft since you were constantly struggling for spell fragments. there is a reason people asked for more spellfragments in the spire in the past.

we not can craft anything we desire in the spire thanks to the fact wo do have enough spellfragments. we do not have to make hard choices like in the past.

ps. what I have seen the spell fragment oversupply for many does not come from the spire, but from the moonstone sets.
With just the spire I can almost sustain all time boosters, combat boosters and pet food that I see in my academy and when it makes sense to make them. this means that almost all spell fragments from the moonstone set are "to much" for most players.

this is that compounds over time so that players now have 300-500K spellfragments and no clue what to do with it. it's not the spire thats the issue here.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

I am with @CrazyWizard here. Are fragments burning a hole in your pocket? Seriously. People who are complaining about excess fragments and how these should be removed are probably expecting that these would be replaced with something better - otherwise it just makes no sense.

But using previous history of changes based on "popular demand", I'd say that this expectation is misguided. So when you get 10x fewer spell fragments in the Spire and nothing in return (or worse), don't say you haven't been warned. Complaining about excess of something is simply not smart. If you want to complain, complain about something that you think should be added.

 

[SoggyShorts]

. it's not the spire thats the issue here.

Indeed it's the set that's unbalanced...big surprise (sarc)
Personally, I've found 4 sets and some pretty heavy crafting to be sustainable for CCs, but overwhelming with SF
E.G.
40 CC and 200K SF on Winy with 4 sets (can use MA for some enchantments other than CCs)
12 CC and 100K SF on Beta with 2 sets (must make CCs in MA 24/7)

and don't forget, I didn't play for the first 13 months after the spire was invented, so I can easily see how others could be loaded.

Note: I'm in no rush to have INNO swing that nerf hammer, just having a truly dynamic wholesaler where some troop or timer instants were available for purchase with SF or Runes or Relics is a nice dream.

 

[DeletedUser27062]

I am not intending to get into an argument with you either - I promise. My hope here is that we can each have our points of view and lay them out respectfully. To that end, I will not attempt to classify your experiences if you would agree not to classify mine. I'm not looking at puddles...nor are the other players in this thread, elsewhere on the forum, or in my own fs. We are out here, amid of deluge of moonstones, calling attention to an actual imbalance which - because we've been playing long before the moonstone and since - we see becoming a real problem since the moonstone.

Might other dynamics and influences be contributing the problem? I'd be surprised if they weren't...but none of those other dynamics threw the balance so wildly off the way the moonstone library did and continues to do. So at the very least it is the likeliest, largest culprit and deserves recognition and a real fix. I keep pushing this with you because I'm hearing you say that without a formal study on the matter I cannot draw this conclusion. While this is a true statement which can be applied to any anecdotal statement made anywhere, it too broadly dismisses some obvious observations and experiences expressed by myself and others. So I am pushing back on it (not on you personally).

I found your response to be so refreshing. Most people find my hard edges uncomfortable. I value direct and open communication above all else but for many people my bluntness comes across as aggression or anger(or that I'm being an arsehole) and stop engaging. I do try to buffer my approach but I suck at social nuance. Sometimes I get stuck in the black and white, fixated on defining and refining the rules that define them that I forget about all the colours needed to paint the full picture. So thank you for bringing more colours, for pushing back on my edges and keeping the dialogue open.

Getting back to the topic, I know it may seem like I'm minimising the experiences of scroll boosted players but I'm not. Your experiences are unique to you just as everyone's are so how can I or anyone say they are more or less valid? What I am contesting is whether those experiences on their own are enough to present a full and accurate picture of the problem. Without accurately identifying the problem we can't possibly hope for successful solution. The devs are going to bow to community pressure once that pressure becomes a sufficient barrier to profits. They won't care whether it actually solves the problem or not because their focus is on balancing the happiness of the players and their profit margin. If people keep blaming moonstone libraries for scroll imbalances we could lose a great resource and still have a goods imbalance.

There's 3 points I want to make:
1) I believe that if there is an imbalance caused by the moonstone libraries that Inno knows about it and has put measures in place to equalise things.
There's ample evidence to support the idea that everything Inno does is purposeful - part of a well thought out game strategy. Given this, it is unreasonable to expect they would introduce buildings that give free goods and not anticipate the impact this would have on the trading environment. They could easily remedy any potential imbalance by increasing the amount and frequency of quests and negotiations that ask for scrolls. Inno has proven they often give with one hand whilst taking away with the other; The AW MM offers a fighting boost but also gives a fighting burden in a different way. In fact, the entire game is framed in this way. Remember that it's Inno's algorithm that determines a new players boosted goods so it's reasonable to believe that Inno may be limiting the number of new players who get scrolls boosted.

2) I don't think our personal experiences are a reliable source of information for forming an accurate understanding of the problem. If we believe there's a problem we will see proof of that - our brains will literally filter out information that doesn't fit our beliefs. This doesn't mean that we're imagining a problem but simply that without corroborating data our experiences must be weighed with caution. Given that the evidence against moonstone buildings is almost entirely anecdotal we need to look at other variables to support or dismiss that claim.

3) If there is an imbalance (and I do believe there is) we can't assume that this trading imbalance means scroll players are disadvantaged over other boosted goods players. I've shown before that steel production in human cities is far more profitable than it is in elven cities when all other factors are equal. Does this mean human cities have an advantage over elven cities? No. Human cities pay for their increased production rates in other ways like bigger housing and longer upgrade costs and time. So it's reasonable to expect that if the imbalance causes a disadvantage in trading that it also gives an advantage in some other way to scroll boosted players.

When I said the ground is wet and you're assuming it rained I meant that correlation is not causation - just because there are buildings that make scrolls and people experience an excess of scrolls doesn't mean that one caused the other - simply that they have something in common and we need far more than that before we draw conclusions.

 

[DeletedUser27062]

No. There is no proof. In fact I think they have an employee that gets paid to hand out the top prize. Being German they call him St. Nick and you dont have proof to the contrary so....


3 cities, 3 spires, 3 artifacts. Two in one city and one naughty city with coal.

I'm def on the naughty list then. 8 cities, 8 spire climbs, 1 artifact. At least I can build a massive pyre with all the coal

 

[DeletedUser27062]

I see no reason Inno would need to tread into possibly fraudulent behavior and fail to apply the percent chances published. While they publish the 5%, what that really says is 'there's a 95% chance you're not going to get this prize'. Even on prizes where they publish a 30% chance, they're saying '70% chance you're not getting it'. Just like casinos, the odds favor the house. So, no, I don't think they're going to make the company vulnerable just so they can change it from 95% in their favor to 96% in their favor.

They'd only be vulnerable if people could actually get hold of the data needed to prove such a claim. I think they've proven how little they have to worry considering their pricing shenanigans over the black friday deals. By their own words they proved their pricing was fraudulent.

 

[DeletedUser27062]

Yep. Also it is part of how the human mind works to say "I am not getting what I want, so the system must be rigged against me."

I agree with you. I'm also wondering if as many people would have agreed with you had you posted it in response to scroll boosted players claims of being disadvantaged.

 

[SoggyShorts]

There's ample evidence to support the idea that everything Inno does is purposeful

LoL over the past 5 years I've seenplenty of evidence that points in the opposite direction. Huge mistakes that have been admitted to be mistakes and eventually corrected.

Given that the evidence against moonstone buildings is almost entirely anecdotal we need to look at other variables to support or dismiss that claim.

It's not anecdotal though, it's factual: We know for a fact that this building set only makes scrolls. We know that players have this building and that no silk or crystal equivalent building exists.
This is why Beta players predicted the problem over a year ago.
There is no question about whether it has an impact, just how much of one.

If there is an imbalance (and I do believe there is) we can't assume that this trading imbalance means scroll players are disadvantaged over other boosted goods players.

Indeed, assuming would be bad, but there's plenty of logical reasoning and evidence to support it.
It's not at all like your human steel example in that there used to be no moonstone set, and now there is.
So either inno messed up before and scrolls players used to have a huge advantage that somehow went totally unnoticed for years which the set now balances out... or inno messed up introducing the set.

 

[DeletedUser27062]

You want evidence?
Will logic suffice as well?

Every player who owns 1 or especially the ones that own multiple copies of the moonstone set do no longer have a need for or a very limited need for scrolls, no matter what there boosted goods are.

If you have 3 types of farms, chicken farms, cow farms and pig farms.
Each farmer likes a mixed palet of meat so he/she trades with the other farms to get an equal amount of pig meat, chicken meat and cow meat.
Each farmer has a designated production, and is NOT allowed to switch production from

now something special arrives, each farmer who dedicates a small patch of land gets each week 1 free pound of chicken for every 2-3 pounds of meat they produce.

So the chicken farmer get free chicken, the cow farmer gets free chicken and the pig farmer gets free chicken.

Now the chicken farmer goed to the cow farmer and tells him, I have 10 pounds of chicken, could you trade it with me for 10 pounds of cow meat?
The cow farmer tells the chicken farmer, I have all the poultry I ever need sorry.

Now the chicken farmer goes to the pig farmer and hears te same story.

This is the issue thats now on every world, it's very severe on new worlds and absorbtion is still possible om some older worlds.
Maybe you are in the very lucky situation that your city's are in a scrollless location or maybe your fellows are kind enough to absorb those scrolls for you even if they do not need it.

Moonstone set was a ticking timebomb at it's introduction, and has already exploded on plenty of worlds.
It should not that hard to imagine that if every player in elvenar gets free scrolls that eventually every scroll player gets into problems at some point.
Especially since the set isn't just "good" and you can get as many copies as you like, but also now events and fellowshipadventures reallt benefit players who own these sets and crafting also benefits from it greatly.

Great response. Your logic is sound but limited. We don't know what other variables are in play here. Perhaps chicken farmer pay less carbon tax or they require fewer employees and land?
Inno regularly offers advantages in one area whilst pairing it with a disadvantage elsewhere.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Great response. Your logic is sound but limited. We don't know what other variables are in play here. Perhaps chicken farmer pay less carbon tax or they require fewer employees and land?

I get what you're doing, and while examining things from as many angles as possible is sometimes a good thing, the fact that we can never know with 100% certainty shouldn't stop us from drawing conclusions based on what we do know.

In this farm example: we checked, and everyone pays the same carbon tax (scrolls players do not get cheaper catering costs). Labor costs are also the same (Marble factories after the first few chapters require the same pop as & space per unit of production as steel & planks) Chickens reach maturity at the same speed as cows&pigs( hourly production is equal)

We can keep trying to take a guess at ever less plausible ways that inno might be manipulating things behind the scenes in order to alleviate the issue, but at some point, we just have to throw in the towel and Occam's razor prevails.

Edit:
There are 2 paths before us:
We do or do not present a united front and ask inno to fix the problem.

• If we don't, and there is no problem, well then no problem.
• If we don't and there is a problem it will get worse.
• If we do, and there is a problem, they might fix it.
• If we do, and there is no problem they'll let us know we are wrong and that scroll players are all secretly getting unicorns on their birthday or whatever.

This is one of the many reasons why I choose to no longer engage with AJ. While mental exercise is both healthy and useful, at some point playing devil's advocate muddies the water to such a degree that the developers can't even see the issue if it is there.

 

[Soleil Nightbloom]

I started playing the game Mid-July and missed the event that originally gave out the Fire Phoenix. The jury is still out on the spire change because I have yet to see any phoenixes come through my MA and have yet to win a phoenix artifact. I got to the beginning of the laboratory in the spire and nothing. I don’t think 6 weeks is enough time if you’re someone like me who missed out on the event and who usually is able to evolve event buildings to level 10 during events.

 

[Iyapo1]

@Soleil Nightbloom I am right there with you. I started during the coldfire event, where people had a chance to convert at a 2 to 1. I had zero phoenix artifacts and dont expect to pick up 9 in any city over six weeks. I will pick up more than I have now and hope this idea works well enough for Inno to repeat it.

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

@Soleil Nightbloom I am right there with you. I started during the coldfire event, where people had a chance to convert at a 2 to 1. I had zero phoenix artifacts and dont expect to pick up 9 in any city over six weeks. I will pick up more than I have now and hope this idea works well enough for Inno to repeat it.

My city that might be able to use those artefacts got none, my city that can't use them got 5 this week.

It's RNG mayhem so far, but it's only a week old, 5 still to go.

Great response. Your logic is sound but limited. We don't know what other variables are in play here. Perhaps chicken farmer pay less carbon tax or they require fewer employees and land?
Inno regularly offers advantages in one area whilst pairing it with a disadvantage elsewhere.

We can keep trying to take a guess at ever less plausible ways that inno might be manipulating things behind the scenes in order to alleviate the issue, but at some point, we just have to throw in the towel and Occam's razor prevails.

There is no active manipulation going on, they tried to teporarily relieve some of the scroll stress when they I think added chapter 16 by asking more scrolls than any other good in the researches there.
So for a very short while there was a much bigger need for scrolls as many players jumped on that chapter.

It's the only manipulation I that has happened, they do know they have an issue but in true inno-fashin it takes them 1-2 years to adress anything.
When it comes to fexibility and adapting to situation they are worst than a gouverment agency. they are so slow.

Those extra scrolls demand was a relief patch (that had no real impact) the issue is that it's a one time thing while the sets keep producing more and more and more and more.

There are no buttons behind the scene that are tweaked, once something works they in general do no longer touch the code untill it's either broken (because of changes somewhere else) or when it gets another revamp.

 

[The Unbeliever]

My city that might be able to use those artefacts got none, my city that can't use them got 5 this week.

It's RNG mayhem so far, but it's only a week old, 5 still to go.


There is no active manipulation going on, they tried to teporarily relieve some of the scroll stress when they I think added chapter 16 by asking more scrolls than any other good in the researches there.
So for a very short while there was a much bigger need for scrolls as many players jumped on that chapter.

It's the only manipulation I that has happened, they do know they have an issue but in true inno-fashin it takes them 1-2 years to adress anything.
When it comes to fexibility and adapting to situation they are worst than a gouverment agency. they are so slow.

Those extra scrolls demand was a relief patch (that had no real impact) the issue is that it's a one time thing while the sets keep producing more and more and more and more.

There are no buttons behind the scene that are tweaked, once something works they in general do no longer touch the code untill it's either broken (because of changes somewhere else) or when it gets another revamp.

Let's not get too crazy here... Inno may be inept at the best of times, but c'mon, if they really were implementing changes like the government would, then they would for example;
1. reduce the amount of scrolls that scroll factories produce
AND
2. add in a 'scrolls tax' for crystal + silk producers which would require them to pay a 30-50% surcharge when trading for scrolls
AND
3. add in a new screen in the trader just for scrolls trades and thereby ensure a new "Scrolls Branch" to their dev team.
and finally...
4. Brag about how they're uplifting poor scrolls producers through 'Equity of Outcome' social justice.

(note: please INNO, the above post is entirely satire and should NOT! be taken as a literal potential fix to the on-going scrolls issues!! )

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

Let's not get too crazy here... Inno may be inept at the best of times, but c'mon, if they really were implementing changes like the government would, then they would for example;
1. reduce the amount of scrolls that scroll factories produce
AND
2. add in a 'scrolls tax' for crystal + silk producers which would require them to pay a 30-50% surcharge when trading for scrolls
AND
3. add in a new screen in the trader just for scrolls trades and thereby ensure a new "Scrolls Branch" to their dev team.
and finally...
4. Brag about how they're uplifting poor scrolls producers through 'Equity of Outcome' social justice.

(note: please INNO, the above post is entirely satire and should NOT! be taken as a literal potential fix to the on-going scrolls issues!! )

lol this would be even worse for scroll producers and make the moonstone set only better paying a tax when trading for scrolls?.. ok I'll make it myself. lowering the production ofscroll factories, ok i'll place another set.

I think you wrote the complete opposith of what you ment to write.