Questions About Net Zero KP Swap Method

[Iyapo1]

Even if there's a clear rule about not jumping people

There are players in every FS I have been in who jump people. Sometimes it is accidental and sometimes it is not. So I put 10 on a 10awkp chest and then get bumped to a 5 kp chest because someone bumped the person above me...who put 10 on a 15awkp chest...with 11 kp. So the jerk bumping gains 4 kp at my expense. It is irritating.

 

[BrinDarby]

Why are you trying to create a hypothetical case that doesn't exist?

It does exsist, even if 5% of ppl care about runes, then the statement
"noone cares about runes" is incorrect...... duhhhhhh

the most misused words in the english language are "absolutes"
never, always, ect ect ect

 

[Killy-]

The statement I made was about FSO vs net zero to the one's contributing. Those contributing get 0 back and thus, to them it's "net zero" (which is why it's named that). The return to the contributors varies by chest in FSO AND you can easily adjust so anyone who wants a shard can get them. For instance if I have an FSO and somebody grabs the first chest with the shard with, say 5KP, I can ask if it's okay for me to put in 6KP. Everybody gets moved down one level, and, maybe, if all the chests are taken, the last person actually looses 1KP, but, overall, it's so cheap who's complaining? So, the comparison was about those contributing and thus, the large profit over no profit comment I made, stands.

The point does not stand, because you cannot compare just parts of the system even if they look like you could compare them seperately. It is a misleading comparison by intent or accident.

Let me just mirror that:
In FSO the maximum you can get 8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1=36 KP in your own wonder if I understand it correctly. In net0 the maximum is 95+75+55+35+25+15+5+5=310 KP. Omg that is over 800% the amount of the FSO. I guess someone has to be a fool to shout out their wonder. I compared the same part of both systems and clearly net0 is way way superior. What a meaningful discussion.

It does exsist, even if 5% of ppl care about runes, then the statement
"noone cares about runes" is incorrect...... duhhhhhh

And the 5% can get their runes in a easy way in net0, so what is your point?

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

I'm curious how many get lost to snipers? Because this seems like exactly the kind of setup a sniper would love. If the runes leave the fellowship, it doesn't really matter if they were cheap.


Fwiw, I find shout-outs demotivating. I detest jockeying for position. I usually avoid taking shout-outs in my groups, even when there's very likely a profit in it for me. Even if there's a clear rule about not jumping people, I don't like the race to get in or miss out.

Pretty much never, I have seen it happen once, and in that case I just repayed the difference. I just asked what there next wonder was and added a chest + the difference.

You might not want to do net0 in the first weeks after a new wonder / chapter is unlocked. because those are the runes someone want to snipe

We just fill out own wonder first and then add the chest. in that case if someone "snipes" a rune. it doesnt matter. I still get my 20% return and sometimes even more if the "sniper" is willing to pay 5-15 more. and it some cases those 5-15 go to the members.

There is no harm in being sniped that way, at best it's a benefit.

 

[SoggyShorts]

It does exsist, even if 5% of ppl care about runes, then the statement
"noone cares about runes" is incorrect...... duhhhhhh

Need =/= Care
I stand by my statement. No one cares about runes. If for example, you were in my FS and needed runes, no one would care because you could get as many as you need from our wonders- we don't care.
So, if only "5% of people care about need runes" then "No one cares about runes"

I've already explained how awesome the system is for the rare occasion/player who does need runes precisely because no one cares about runes.
Simply tell the group via the Admin Thread "I need X runes" and anyone planning to upgrade that wonder soon will hook you up because... wait for it....yup, you guessed it: no one cares about runes.

The hypothetical scenario where you have a fellowship full of tiny players who are all fighting for the same runes at the same time while dumping hundreds of KP every week to flip multiple wonders every day because none of them place KP into their research simply doesn't exist.

Is it possible? Sure, in the sense that "anything is possible"
Does the situation currently exist? Not that I'm aware of. Several FS are using Net0 and none of them have this issue.
And finally, if somehow such a FS did come to exist, what system would be better, and why?

 

[ajqtrz]

The point does not stand, because you cannot compare just parts of the system even if they look like you could compare them seperately. It is a misleading comparison by intent or accident.

Let me just mirror that:

In FSO the maximum you can get 8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1=36 KP in your own wonder if I understand it correctly. In net0 the maximum is 95+75+55+35+25+15+5+5=310 KP. Omg that is over 800% the amount of the FSO. I guess someone has to be a fool to shout out their wonder. I compared the same part of both systems and clearly net0 is way way superior. What a meaningful discussion.

And the 5% can get their runes in a easy way in net0, so what is your point?

I agree that, overall they are the same. But splitting immediate profit amongst 5-8 players makes more sense than giving it all to the owner. Here I'm talking about motivation. And the fact that FSO's require less up front costs to those contributors (though it does cost the owner more), means that smaller players can participate with more ease.

I'm not sure what the problem is when you ask me "And the 5% can get their runes in an easy way in net0, so what's your point?" If you mean the distribution of runes when needed can be achieved in either method, that's true enough. But, again, the lower cost to the contributor of an FSO means smaller players can take those runes at a lower cost. And that, to them, is a plus as it's cheaper than net0. (dare we suggest that that means, overall, those who need runes might actually be 'making more' in a FSO than a net0?)

AJ

 

[Killy-]

I agree that, overall they are the same. But splitting immediate profit amongst 5-8 players makes more sense than giving it all to the owner. Here I'm talking about motivation. And the fact that FSO's require less up front costs to those contributors (though it does cost the owner more), means that smaller players can participate with more ease.

I never saw that motivation is ever a problem for net0 and it seems that it is the same in other FSs. Small players can participate with no KPs at all in net0, because only a maximum of 8 "donors" are needed.

 

[ajqtrz]

I never saw that motivation is ever a problem for net0 and it seems that it is the same in other FSs. Small players can participate with no KPs at all in net0, because only a maximum of 8 "donors" are needed.

I'm just a bit curious. If you are the AW owner in a net0 you have to put in most of the KP. If you are contributor....how can you put in 0 KP? In and FSO you have to put in 1 to participate as a contributor, so if there's way you can put in 0 in net0, that would pretty much settle the issue and I'd have everybody put in 0....of course then the owner would probably have to put in 100% but it would be better for the contributors. Oh, wait. If there was a way to participate in net0 by contributing 0 you could probably do the same in FSO. It appears we have some confusion as to what it means to participate. To me you participate if you are a "donor" or the owner. Everyone else isn't participating. But, I can imagine you could never be a donor and just keep putting up your AW in the net0. Then you make out like a bandit and it would be true you could do that with "no kp." But I think that would be called by most, "abuse?"

And we've never had a motivation problem in FSO's. The only "de-motivator" I can imagine is asking for a player to put in 5-40KP and then wait until they have an AW to actually profit. Small players don't always have AW's do they? Of course, that could happen in and FSO if they had only 0 kp, but an hour later they would be okay because 1KP is all it takes. So let's say you have a new player who wants some KP but has 0. In a net0 environment he/she can wait and save for a minimum of 5 hours, put in that 5 and then, let's just say, instantly, get it back! Uh, what was the gain for them, again? Of course, if they want profit they just have to get to the first AW and build it. Then do an net0. Again, small players are pretty much left out of the whole thing. But in an FSO they get an instant return. Think of it as way to send KP to those pesky small players who need it a lot more than you! Even a new player without an AW can benefit from an FSO within a few hours at most.

The more I think about it, the more I like it.

Wouldn't it be a great thing for a fellowship to be able to pass KP onto their players even if they don't own an AW yet? Can KP instants be used on other things than AW's? Even if they can't if a new player is instructed well, they can save up enough KP instants via either method.... oh, wait, they can't via net0 because they don't have any profit until the get their first AW. Well, then, they can save up via FSO's so that when they get their first AW they can immediately upgrade it...maybe a bunch of times! Now that's something to think about!

@SoggyShorts Yeah, "nobody cares about runes" except for the guy who has to ask. That's the same in FSO's by the way, so to me, the whole "need runes" isn't an issue either way. In both if you need a rune, just ask. Still, it's cheaper to buy that rune if you are a small player in an FSO than in net0, isn't it? AND you get the extra KP with it.

AJ

 

[Killy-]

I'm just a bit curious. If you are the AW owner in a net0 you have to put in most of the KP. If you are contributor....how can you put in 0 KP? In and FSO you have to put in 1 to participate as a contributor, so if there's way you can put in 0 in net0, that would pretty much settle the issue and I'd have everybody put in 0....of course then the owner would probably have to put in 100% but it would be better for the contributors. Oh, wait. If there was a way to participate in net0 by contributing 0 you could probably do the same in FSO. It appears we have some confusion as to what it means to participate. To me you participate if you are a "donor" or the owner. Everyone else isn't participating. But, I can imagine you could never be a donor and just keep putting up your AW in the net0. Then you make out like a bandit and it would be true you could do that with "no kp." But I think that would be called by most, "abuse?"

Might be that you are confused, because for me everthing looks pretty clear. People can participate in net0 if they just post their own wonder and get 20% back on their KP. If you feel that is an abuse or makes the person a bandit than that is your view. I have no problem with that, because nobody is losing anything. Of course not everyone would be able to just post their wonder, but as long there are enough people to fill the chests I couldn't care less and there were always enough people in my FS and this without rules or anything. Might be different for other FSs in that case make a rule for it I guess.

 

[Dew Spinner]

This does not take into account the changes made last year.
These days players can only aquire runes they have unlocked in the tournaments (and end rewards).
This means for wonders they have just unlocked they need to aquire them from helping in wonders or wait a while to aquire them in the tournments which could take several weeks.

This has been the same for me, started 8/2020, and I still have never been short on runes because I hit the tournament hard. Minimum participation gets you minimum runes. Runes can be broken on other AWs not placed and the rune phase is at every 5 levels, plenty of time to gain enough runes. You also have broken rune shards from tournament to use on the newer AW. I have so many runes for AWs I am not going to build because I hit tournament hard, the the only time spent on a rune phase for the AW I want to upgrade...is inserting the runes.

 

[ajqtrz]

Might be that you are confused, because for me everthing looks pretty clear. People can participate in net0 if they just post their own wonder and get 20% back on their KP. If you feel that is an abuse or makes the person a bandit than that is your view. I have no problem with that, because nobody is losing anything. Of course not everyone would be able to just post their wonder, but as long there are enough people to fill the chests I couldn't care less and there were always enough people in my FS and this without rules or anything. Might be different for other FSs in that case make a rule for it I guess.

I see. So you are saying that the owner putting is all the KP needed to finish the AW equals 0. That's the only way you can claim you can participate with 0KP. Just don't count what the owner has to put in as if he/she isn't a participant. Works for me but I do think it's a bit...hmmm.... inaccurate?

 

[Killy-]

I see. So you are saying that the owner putting is all the KP needed to finish the AW equals 0. That's the only way you can claim you can participate with 0KP. Just don't count what the owner has to put in as if he/she isn't a participant. Works for me but I do think it's a bit...hmmm.... inaccurate?

I think I can't follow you here. For me a person that only lists his/her wonder in net0 but doesn't fill any chests in other wonders is still a participant. He or she just fills the own wonder and gets 20% filled by other players. Was that the question?

 

[ajqtrz]

I think I can't follow you here. For me a person that only lists his/her wonder in net0 but doesn't fill any chests in other wonders is still a participant. He or she just fills the own wonder and gets 20% filled by other players. Was that the question?

As I said. You just don't want to count the KP the owner puts in and claim they aren't putting anything in for the net0. I can live with that. If I were in a net0 fellowship I'd just put all my AW's in the list and let everybody put in the 20%. Then I'd fill them up as I go until they are done. Might take a few weeks, but at least my fellowship got all the profit, right? And that's even if I did participate in other's net0' AW's as they listed them.

In fact, give that, why not have everybody just list their AW's as soon as they can so that the chests get taken early in the cycle rather than late? That would work too. At 15 AW's per player that 360 (24 x 15) AW's and at 100 or so per AW that's only 36,000 KP. And since it doesn't cost anything why not? And you'd have the advantage of insuring nobody got a chest who was outside your fellowship. So does any fs actually go all out and do this? Seems like a logical thing and insures everybody gets to participate.

Of course you couldn't do that in FSO because it has to be finished ASAP to keep those outside the fs from grabbing cheap chests. Score one for Net0.

AJ

 

[Dew Spinner]

As I said. You just don't want to count the KP the owner puts in and claim they aren't putting anything in for the net0. I can live with that. If I were in a net0 fellowship I'd just put all my AW's in the list and let everybody put in the 20%. Then I'd fill them up as I go until they are done. Might take a few weeks, but at least my fellowship got all the profit, right? And that's even if I did participate in other's net0' AW's as they listed them.

In fact, give that, why not have everybody just list their AW's as soon as they can so that the chests get taken early in the cycle rather than late? That would work too. At 15 AW's per player that 360 (24 x 15) AW's and at 100 or so per AW that's only 36,000 KP. And since it doesn't cost anything why not? And you'd have the advantage of insuring nobody got a chest who was outside your fellowship. So does any fs actually go all out and do this? Seems like a logical thing and insures everybody gets to participate.

Of course you couldn't do that in FSO because it has to be finished ASAP to keep those outside the fs from grabbing cheap chests. Score one for Net0.

AJ

It's already been stated that in a NetZero the AW has to be filled withinn 24 hrs or less. You wait till you have enough KP to fill the 80% then call out the AW and the the other 20% is given rapidly, then you fill the 80% with your reserve, so snipers are a non issue for the most part. In your method of putting 7 KP on a 40 KP chest, that is easily snipable. 40 KP on a 40 KP chest is less so. The trick is the reserve of 80% of the KP by the owner, as soon as you get your 20% reward you upgrade it immediately because you already have the other 80% in reserve. Snipers look for AWs that are close to being filled, with this way your AW is almost empty or only half full and not a good risk for a sniper.

 

[Killy-]

In fact, give that, why not have everybody just list their AW's as soon as they can so that the chests get taken early in the cycle rather than late? That would work too. At 15 AW's per player that 360 (24 x 15) AW's and at 100 or so per AW that's only 36,000 KP. And since it doesn't cost anything why not? And you'd have the advantage of insuring nobody got a chest who was outside your fellowship. So does any fs actually go all out and do this? Seems like a logical thing and insures everybody gets to participate.

I think that is different in every FS and I can only speak for my FS. We post our wonders early but letting everbody know that it might need some days or 2 weeks or whatever until the wonder will be full and the KPs return. Like already mentioned you cannot snipe the chests, best case you get the chest for face value and otherwise you pay more than you get back. That's why we don't care when other players fill chests.

I'd just put all my AW's in the list and let everybody put in the 20%. Then I'd fill them up as I go until they are done. Might take a few weeks, but at least my fellowship got all the profit, right?

Actually you get all the profit, in net0 the person that lists his/her wonder gets 20% for free.

 

[SoggyShorts]

If I were in a net0 fellowship I'd just put all my AW's in the list and let everybody put in the 20%. Then I'd fill them up as I go until they are done. Might take a few weeks, but at least my fellowship got all the profit, right?

Firstly, no your FS didn't get any profit, that's the Net0 part.
Secondly, our FS asks posters to have their own wonders 50% full before posting. So yeah, if you really wanted to tie up 10,000+ of your own KP in half-filled wonders in order to lock up another 1,000 of your friends' KP I guess you could, but why? Seems odd since a 70% filled wonder gives the exact same benefit to your city as a 0% filled one.

Also, a simple rule of "You must finish your wonder within 24h of all chests being reserved" is common so that players don't have huge amounts of KP tied up. Alternatively, a rule such as "You may not list a third wonder until you've finished one" would prevent your strange behavior, but my FS hasn't had any need of such a rule other than an unwritten one of "Don't be a dick" which seems to work just fine.

 

[BrinDarby]

@SoggyShorts ,
For once I was actually agree'n with you and I still get grief for playing
Devil's Advocate and bringing up logical... cons ...

There are more than just what I and @ajqtrz have said that could
be potential probs, but I guess you're "don't be a richard" rule only
applies in your FS, cause you sure don't use that same sound judgement here.

 

[BrinDarby]

I never saw that motivation is ever a problem for net0 and it seems that it is the same in other FSs. Small players can participate with no KPs at all in net0, because only a maximum of 8 "donors" are needed.

Killy how did you quote AJ, yet have it appear as my quote..... it was not my quote it was AJ's.

 

[Killy-]

Killy how did you quote AJ, yet have it appear as my quote..... it was not my quote it was AJ's.

I hope I fixed it.

 

[ajqtrz]

Firstly, no your FS didn't get any profit, that's the Net0 part.
Secondly, our FS asks posters to have their own wonders 50% full before posting. So yeah, if you really wanted to tie up 10,000+ of your own KP in half-filled wonders in order to lock up another 1,000 of your friends' KP I guess you could, but why? Seems odd since a 70% filled wonder gives the exact same benefit to your city as a 0% filled one.

Also, a simple rule of "You must finish your wonder within 24h of all chests being reserved" is common so that players don't have huge amounts of KP tied up. Alternatively, a rule such as "You may not list a third wonder until you've finished one" would prevent your strange behavior, but my FS hasn't had any need of such a rule other than an unwritten one of "Don't be a dick" which seems to work just fine.

Now let's see. If you add all the KP taken in, yeah, you are right. But the poster gets a 20% KP reduction and that's, in my book, profit. So okay, here we're just quibbling over if getting a 20% discount because others put in that 20% for you (and got it back from the chests) is "profit" or not.

On the other hand, the rules about 50% done and you have finish it in so many hours is there for a reason -- because maybe somebody thought, "gee, I could put in all my AW's and get 20% off right now then, later, at my own pace, I'll finish them." Rules are almost always suggested because somebody takes advantage of an "opportunity" to benefit themselves. And of course, if you have a rule it's almost always in response to somebody ignoring "don't be a dick."

FSO has the rules stated up front: Enough KP to finish it in 24 hours, little to no KP in it now (preferably none so snippers aren't tempted). Hmmm.... sounds very familiar. Of course, in an FSO it's more important to do it quickly to avoid snipers, and that's a downside to the FSO. Not much of one though since it would take a lot of poaching to bump everyone enough they got no profit. The contributors get the profit, don't forget.

@Dew Spinner See above for your answer to sniping. If we put little or no KP in before we are ready, little to no sniping will occur. Hence the need to finish it quickly.

AJ