"Do you really want to decline the quest? This cannot be reversed"

[DeletedUser43]

it seemed like kind of a cop out from doing the work (math/balancing/waiting) that makes this game worth playing to me and I felt was the heart of it.
It does now occur to me that some people probably just like making a city they think looks cool and playing with it and don't want to spend 10 hrs with graph paper, spreadsheets and a calculator just to wait on time to catch up with the arc they planned and that those two dif. styles and perspectives would drastically differ on something as simple as this little issue.

And again here come the insults even though you keep saying you aren't trying to insult anyone. Cop out? Not doing the work? I find those themes insulting. Don't you? I know you are just trying to explain your position but I think you overlooked something. It isn't just that people have different styles, it could be that people with your same style are ALSO using the quests. Because what makes you think that people who are questing aren't balancing and planning and spending just as much time on their city as you are? The best city planner in this game I ever saw was BobbiPiazza who would design the most efficient city possible and get the most out of every single square. Her goal was ranking and boy oh boy was she efficient at it! She spent untold hours squeezing every single point possible out of the available space. Her city was a lesson in ranking efficiency. She used the quests because she didn't want to waste 25 whole spaces on the magic academy. Perish the thought!! She would spend weeks trying to find a way to use one less space. Tossing 25 away willy nilly on a non necessary building that gives zero rank? 25 spaces wasted? Yikes!!!

I could also say that you are the one who is copping out because you aren't doing work that it takes to do the quests. And it does take work. I mean, if you want to look at who is doing a ton more work to make their city the most efficient? But frankly, I don't think that. I think that you have chosen one way to play and you find that enjoyable. That is great. The more ways people find this game enjoyable the more people that will be here. As Katwijk is so fond of saying, there are all types of players who play this game and it helps the game survive. The more types that can be accommodated the better. Some play for rank, some play for looks, some play for speed, some play to battle. To each their own.

All I really know is that I personally prefer the math/planning/waiting so I voted against the chance to shift the center further away from that method

That is the only part I have an issue with. I don't get WHY people are so against a method that they don't choose for themselves. If you said you didn't support this idea because you personally really like those messages, that would be one thing (though this idea won't hurt anyone who does like those messages), but it is the idea that I don't play that way and so I don't want anyone else to play that way that bothers me. That is what I am discussing and I hope to convince you that there are different strokes for different folks.

We need players in this game. Whatever way and however they stay here, the better. Some people prefer to have the fewest clicks possible and want a small city, I say great, let them at it, if you want to click a million times a day on the quests, again, I say have at that. It is tedious, but if you are broke and can't buy diamonds, that is a good way to at least have a playable game here. Sure the game needs paying customers to survive, but it also needs the non paying customers. Whatever anyone wants...go for it. My over arching goal is to have players. Lots and lots of players.

We aren't "sides", we are all Elvenar inhabitants. We are one big world. Why do we have to try to control other players so they all play the same way? That would be so boring. I'd like to see the beautiful ways people can make a city so I wish there was more emphasis on aesthetics. I like all kinds of different options for game play.

 

[SoggyShorts]

I don't get WHY people are so against a method that they don't choose for themselves.

Hopefully for the last time, I'll try explaining this again. Even if someone never cycles quests it still effects them. Why? because the costs in the game are not being reduced, and workshops productions aren't being increased. This is directly related to players having a way around the shortages.
You don't play in a vacuum.

Why do we have to try to control other players so they all play the same way?

EXACTLY. If cycling quests becomes even better by making it take half as many clicks, even more players will come to rely on it. If more players rely on it, then the costs in the next expansion chapter will have to go up to still provide a challenge. This will essentially force all players to play the same way, by relying on the looping quests.

Please tell me that you can see how a player that never uses something can still be effected by it now.

 

[DeletedUser5800]

again here come the insults

based on my experience, which I now know is apparently far from universal or even continuous, it seemed

Key word seemed... I was explaining why you were right and I was kind of being insulting previously, not further being, but you seem intent on taking it that way even while I'm trying to say I understand it better now thanks to you... so it is what it is.

Because what makes you think that people who are questing aren't balancing and planning and spending just as much time on their city as you are?

I don't think all people aren't, I imagine a whole giant group do both, using the loop towards efficiency as a kind of patch supplement, also info. I gained from what you have said, but I do think some people over use it in the exact method that has apparently been a problem since the start and they have messed it up for you fine folks operating from within the bounds. It's like saying you only use the chain saw to spread peanut butter on your sandwich so it should be easier to start it. It just doesn't make sense to me and I'm trying really hard to understand it.

I don't know where we can go from here without just repeating ourselves over and over so just for fun... I love the message, it's my fav. part, I think there should be two messages.

 

[DeletedUser43]

We have quests now. Players use them now. Not all players do. The game has been going for 2 years like this. The costs are already baked in. Unless you start from scratch that isn't going to change.

We are where we are. You seem to think that the devs will change your game and make it harder for the non scrollers if this stupid annoying and untrue message goes away. I don't share your fears.

Look at the contest guide that you produced. By posting all that information you are making the contest a lot easier for people and changing the whole balance of it. You could tell yourself that it is horrible to put that information out there because now the devs will redesign the whole game to make the challenges tougher. Maybe more people are going to finish the contest than before. Does that mean that you shouldn't have produced that guide? If more people finish the contest and get more buildings that will have an effect on scores and how many culture buildings people buy. An effect that wasn't intended by the devs because they didn't give players a guide on how to do the contest faster. You did that.

Everything we do in one way or another affects game play.

Key word seemed... I was explaining why you were right and I was kind of being insulting previously, not further being, but you seem intent on taking it that way even while I'm trying to say I understand it better now thanks to you... so it is what it is.

I am glad to hear that. I am sorry if I misread your intent.

 

[DeletedUser5182]

I've only ever skipped a quest a few times.. I like to feel complete, to compensate for my insecurities.. I voted no >:] but.. options never hurt anyone.. :]

 

[SoggyShorts]

By posting all that information you are making the contest a lot easier for people and changing the whole balance of it.

This is actually a very valid point, and a fear I had after the Halloween guide. But we have been told before that 99.98% of players don't use the forums, so I wasn't terribly worried about the impact. Since I posted the guide up on google docs there have never been over 100 players on it at a time, and most are the same people just keeping a tab open (idle) of all the players across all the regions that's not very many.

 

[DeletedUser43]

It just doesn't make sense to me and I'm trying really hard to understand it.

Additionally, when I first started this game I would sit there for days just waiting for something to happen so I could get the coins needed to progress. I HATE that. Checking into the city and seeing that it will be days before I can do something else? OMG how boring to me!! I was about ready to quit this game when someone told me I didn't have to be stuck for coins and supplies all the time. I learned that quests could be declined. It changed everything. Suddenly the game was fun again.

When this game started the magic academy didn't exist, so many people learned to play without that building or the spells. Then they introduced it and many of us found that it wasn't worth building. I still don't. Space is the biggest premium we have in this game. Wasting 25 spaces on that building is more of a luxury and waste that I am willing to put up with. I don't need it to run my city and it actually harms me. If I build it that is a full 25 spaces that could be used for something else I DO want.

Also, with the battle system being redesigned, I find fighting less and less enjoyable. I don't want a building that depends on my fighting all the time in tournaments in order to get the relics I need to make it run.

Moreover, as your city grows, your need for supplies grows exponentially. It takes tons of culture and tons of population for workshops. I want a few other buildings. I am tired of JUST workshops and culture and houses. I want factories. Maybe an ancient wonder here and there. But while the buildings get bigger, the space for them doesn't grow as fast as your need. So, you are squishing larger and larger buildings into a tiny space. If I have to build more workshops then I need more houses and more culture and I don't have room for anything else. Without the quests I wouldn't be able to get through the next chapter because there simply isn't room for anything.

Or, I could delete half my factories to get more room. But I only have 5 of each and I need them badly. The costs for scouting and clearing provinces is crazy high and I personally have zero chance at winning in a battle on the world map. So, I have to keep my factories working all the time. I can't even clear the provinces I have opened now because I don't have enough goods. If I don't clear provinces I don't get expansions and no expansions means no game.


So, those are my personal reasons for using the quests. I am sure other people have other reasons.

This is actually a very valid point, and a fear I had after the Halloween guide. But we have been told before that 99.98% of players don't use the forums, so I wasn't terribly worried about the impact.

But of course players are told things in their fellowships, so even if they don't visit the forums, someone does. That information gets disseminated. But, I'm not telling you not to do the guide. You enjoy it. Other people enjoy having the information. I am just saying that it obviously affects the game. All things do. You wrote in order to affect the way people play the contest. And so what? If it makes the game easier for some and harder for others, that is their choice. You can take advantage of all resources available in this game or not. But I think it is over doing it to worry about a suggestion because it might have some affect on the costs of expansions. The effect is so negligible and so many things go into the whole balance of the game.

 

[SoggyShorts]

But I think it is over doing it to worry about a suggestion because it might have some affect on the costs of expansions.

Not expansions, but the supply costs of everything in the upcoming guest races.
Sorry, most games I play call new content "expansions" so it should read:

If cycling quests becomes even better by making it take half as many clicks, even more players will come to rely on it. If more players rely on it, then the costs in the next expansion chapter that is released will have to go up to still provide a challenge. This will essentially force all players to play the same way, by relying on the looping quests.

 

[Devman]

99.98% of players don't use the forums,

I cant imagine why ...

In retrospect , I wish I had worded the poll differently . Never the less , I do appreciate the passionate dedication of the players and this forum community .

 

[DeletedUser43]

Your arguments seem to be against the quests in general.

Again though, by producing your contest guides you have given players a way to have a lot more free cultural buildings than they might have gotten and that will make the game easier and then:

the costs in the next expansion chapter that is released will have to go up to still provide a challenge.

 

[DeletedUser5800]

the magic academy didn't exist, so many people learned to play without that building or the spells

That would be horrible, I use mine around the clock, PoP on the workshops once a week and Manufacturing on all my tier 3's as fast as I can fit them in without shorting myself on PoPs which is often if I get a handful from visiting chest. I also got tons of relics early on from the summer solstice event, I will never run out. These things most certainly affect my perspective. I believe in my case that I came along at a better time and developed a style older players could not. I also believe I got put smack in the middle of some top 100 players and never had to wait on a trade for more than an hour no matter what it was. I have been afforded luxuries others have not... all this other stuff aside, that may at least be telling that things are getting better and I imagine these debates help drive that, but it is also possibly an indicator that some older players will have to evolve their style to better suit the now and the future, as I'm sure will I eventually.

 

[SoggyShorts]

I'd like to think my guides have helped thousands of players, but my ego is not that large. In my own fellowships less than 15/25 players have used the guide.
You'd have to actively ignore the event to not get all 100 quests done in 5 weeks. All the guide really accomplishes is helping players get through faster so they can have more choice of which buildings to get.

As for the MA and wasted space, have you considered all of the space you are losing by having residences and culture buildings that are far less efficient than the event rewards? At the woodelf chapter you gain 14 squares per Winter Star. If you cleared all the quests you could get 10+ of them.

EDIT: I didn't consider ranking points during this post because I always think of ranking as a P2W thing, and those players can just buy better buildings.

 

[DeletedUser43]

As for the MA and wasted space, have you considered all of the space you are losing by having residences and culture buildings that are far less efficient than the event rewards? At the woodelf chapter you gain 14 squares per Winter Star. If you cleared all the quests you could get 10+ of them.

I imagine you are saying that I need the MA in order to get those winter stars. I don't.

Also, in the wood elf chapter you need tons of mana, so any culture building that doesn't give you mana really doesn't do you much good. Having some population is useful. But mostly that mana is paramount. Right now, I couldn't really swap out any of my mana producing culture buildings. I think of this contest as being most useful for the players who aren't in the wood elf chapter. I could swap out some of my residences as I certainly don't need the coins, so maybe I will do that if I win any of those stars. I hope these things will be upgradeable with those blueprints in the future.

 

[SoggyShorts]

I imagine you are saying that I need the MA in order to get those winter stars. I don't.

Will you get enough from visits? I'm not sure how long finding 11 would take. Actually during the days when you are stuck waiting 3 days for a scout any visits you do won't help.
Assuming you will be using your 3-4 day scouts for the quests that give you a choice between scout or spell. If not that's another 10.
Getting 21 PoP from visits is asking for quite a bit of luck.

Hmm I'm not seeing how you can do all of the quests without an MA

 

[SoggyShorts]

@Bobbykitty
Just had a quick look, and event buildings are still awesome for woodelves
4 Winter stars

• 6,000 population
• 36 squares of space
• 6,000 culture
• no roads needed

5 residences

• 6,000 population
• -2,000 culture
• 60 squares

So with event buildings you save at least 24 squares, and gain 8,000 culture.
Since you should be able to (statistically) get 12 Winter stars, that would mean saving an extra 3 expansions in space over residences.

The only downside toWinter stars is the loss of coins compared to residences, but imo 3 expansions makes up for that and then some.

 

[Ashrem]

Seems to be the consensus . But it is not a logical reason for not making a sensible decision , no matter what the question is .

I didn't say it was my reason for making the decision. I said it predisposed me to have a negative attitude toward the original poster (you) as part of saying that it's never an ideal way to start a conversation. Now that I've tried a few days of looping quests, I also find it irritating. I still don't think that removing it is a good idea, and that has nothing to do with the poll or how it was worded. It imposes a very, very small penalty on rapid cycling which the developers have apparently indicated they wish we weren't doing (whether or not they acknowledge that the game is something less for a large sub-set of players if they don't do it is only minimally relevant to their design intent)

All I ever indicated was a bias, of which I was aware. And, maybe, that the choices we make in how to present information to others has a consequence. I have made a conscious choice in life to try to be aware of my predispositions and biases, and their genesis, and I admitted the bias. I acknowledged internally that I was ascribing tone to your posts that had no basis in fact.

To carry that further, the consequence of my admitting a bias against your arguments is that you (in my estimation) think less of me and chose to chastise me (declaring my decision to be "not sensible") based on an extrapolation of how that affected my vote. Among the consequence of that chastisement is that this threatens to become a self-feeding cycle, with each additional criticism reinforcing our opinions of each other. Imagine how much worse this conversation might have gone if I'd simply become biased against you without being self-aware and admitting it?

 

[DeletedUser3696]

If it takes me 1 minute to loop thru the quests and I need 3 separate mouse clicks per quest, wouldn't eliminating this extra click mean 20 seconds worth of work?
Is it really that big of a deal for a couple extra minutes a day?

Most of our lives have annoyances that take a heck of a lot longer than that. Most people I know need a lot more than 5 minutes to get to work, heck it might take more than 5 minutes to get to the grocery store.

But back to this game, I'd rather be able to visit my 200+ neighbours in less than 30 minutes before I save a few quick clicks on cycling/looping quests. Heck, there are a lot of features I'd like to see before this, one being some damn neighbours who are actually active - more than the 2 I currently have!

 

[Ashrem]

But back to this game, I'd rather be able to visit my 200+ neighbours in less than 30 minutes before I save a few quick clicks on cycling/looping quests. Heck, there are a lot of features I'd like to see before this, one being some damn neighbours who are actually active - more than the 2 I currently have!

Yep. anything that speeds up visiting neighbours, even by just a second or two, would be way more valuable to me personally (and I suspect most people)

Ideally* I'm imagining a "neighbours" list, similar to Fellowship, which initially would auto populate, but at some point we could add to and arrange at will, so that the people I am most likely to get a response from can be put at the top of my neighbour list.

(Ideally* by which I mean in a distant future, not right now, since I expect there are many things with a higher coding priority)

 

[DeletedUser3696]

Yep. anything that speeds up visiting neighbours, even by just a second or two, would be way more valuable to me personally (and I suspect most people)

Ideally* I'm imagining a "neighbours" list, similar to Fellowship, which initially would auto populate, but at some point we could add to and arrange at will, so that the people I am most likely to get a response from can be put at the top of my neighbour list.

(Ideally* by which I mean in a distant future, not right now, since I expect there are many things with a higher coding priority)

I've always pined for having gold mines whereby I could just scan the map and click for 1/2 the gold. At least it would take about 2 minutes to get 1/2 the gold vs. 30 minutes to get all the gold. If you couldn't tell I only do neighbour visits in emergencies - like when I got my last city expansion and needed 9mill to place it.

 

[DeletedUser43]

There is currently a very good idea about neighborly help that has been suggested on the beta forums. Feel free to go check it out under the ideas section.

Soggy, I'm not willing to replace all my houses with winter stars, though it sure seems like a good idea. As of now they are not upgradable and it takes forever to try to rebuild a house. I just don't trust it. But, I am sure that is the more efficient method.

https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/wm-new-way-to-motivate-help-neighbors.6347/