Inno's dealing with push accounts needs drastic improvement discussion

[Ashrem]

First, that's a bit of a jump. Saying that cheaters here are unsophisticated does not imply I think that we should give preferential treatment to classes of cheaters

But you are touting simplistic methods of catching cheating that will only catch dumb cheaters.

The complaint here is about people that are using 25-50 alternate accounts.

This is a time based game. So, a slightly more sophisticated but popular way of cheating would be to use a bot to collect your gold sooner or build you more supplies... stupid stuff like that. While, unfair... it doesn't allow that player to jump hundreds of ranking points per day! And I've also stated I don't care about people with one or two push accounts.

So, you aren't saying there are more than one class of cheater, except that there's a class you care about and a class you don't care about.

Read above I AGREED with you that ousting by Inno shouldn't occur. You're defending inaction.

I don't have to defend it, the game isn't my job. What I'm doing over and over again despite the efforts of others to paint it as something else, is saying that things are not black and white, and that almost any question that begins with "Why don't they just..." is failing to take into account that there are a variety of confounding factors. It doesn't matter if it's which cheating in a game to act against, or choosing whom to prosecute for pirating movies, or choosing who to pull over and harass for a broken tail-light; every time anyone gets treated differently for a similar action, there's a chance they will feel treated unfairly. That may manifest as anything from a Facebook post to a lawsuit.

You're either in the know of some form of cheating that I am not... or you're getting caught up on me implying that people using push accounts are unsophisticated and we're saying the same thing. If it's the former, please let me know so i can get mad as heck about it also.

Or maybe I'm a little above average at pattern recognition and spotting flaws in both game-play and arguments. One of the places my mind goes is "maybe the obvious push account is operated by developers for some non-obvious test, or to see if people will contact them and ask about the best way to cheat so they can keep an eye on them.

I don't understand what you're saying here. I didn't imply there was a limited application of spreadsheets.

Here:

Most people have all their alts in different fellowships from their main account (because their main account's fellowship doesn't want a bunch of 9k ranking players in chapter 3) so there would be no spreadsheet to fall back on.

Perhaps I misread that? It seems to me to imply that people who aren't in a fellowship together couldn't be using a spreadsheet to track their KP exchanges, whether it is with their own accounts, their room-mate who also plays (and maybe is too busy to do more than log in and dump their kp while tech-locked), or a complete strangers who they've befriended in game.

I'm not sure what alternative you are suggesting.
Out of
Catch some
Catch none
Catch all
Are you saying that since catching all is not possible we should stick with catching none?

I'm not suggesting any alternatives. I'm simply saying repeatedly that it's never as easy as forum participants like to think. We don't know whether they've taken any action or not, we only know that if any action has been taken, it is not satisfactory to the players that care. Maybe they sent a horrible person a notice and got back a perfectly reasonable explanation, which they are not sharing because it's nobody else's business. Maybe they asked a player to test a mechanic. Maybe they have someone doing it to see how players respond to a particular circumstance. Maybe the scientists for whom our entire universe is simply a computer simulation injected it to get a laugh on a boring weekend. Maybe someone who is confined to their bed by a terminal illness is horribly bored and depressed and wants to see how long it takes them to get kicked out of the game.

 

[DeletedUser3507]

Well I am for one watching one group of accounts where absolutely no action has been taken in the past four months so yes, I do know. Elvenar seems to be doing absolutly not a dang thing that why I started this thread.

And even to anyone that looks at what this person is doing could see its pushing on the grand scale of things.

 

[Ashrem]

Well I am for one watching one group of accounts where absolutely no action has been taken in the past four months so yes, I do know.

Of course you do. I unfortunately, am not omniscient.

(edit: I'm curious, though, how exactly it is that you know how many emails they have or haven't sent back and forth in the last four months, or whether there are any lawyers involved?)

 

[DeletedUser3507]

Of course you do. I unfortunately, am not omniscient.

(edit: I'm curious, though, how exactly it is that you know how many emails they have or haven't sent back and forth in the last four months, or whether there are any lawyers involved?)

Well it kind of easy when the push accounts are consistently in the top 100 of tourney. Even a blind man could see this.

 

[SoggyShorts]

I'm not suggesting any alternatives. I'm simply saying repeatedly that it's never as easy as forum participants like to think. We don't know whether they've taken any action or not, we only know that if any action has been taken, it is not satisfactory to the players that care. Maybe Maybe Maybe Maybe Maybe Maybe Maybe

Well if any of those things are what is actually happening and inno chooses to inform us of them, then we can simply drop it. Until we are given such an explanation, it is perfectly reasonable to ask for them to step up enforcement of the rules as they have been explained to us.

 

[Ashrem]

Well it kind of easy when the push accounts are consistently in the top 100 of tourney. Even a blind man could see this.

Well then I must be blind, because I still don't see how them being in the top 100 tells you if there have been conversations between the game team and the cheater in question, nor whether there are pending refuted charges with a credit card company or lawsuits under way. Here I thought my vision was pretty good.

TLDR: I've never said you can't tell they're cheating. I'm saying you have no idea if Inno is doing anything about it.

Well if any of those things are what is actually happening and inno chooses to inform us of them, then we can simply drop it. Until we are given such an explanation, it is perfectly reasonable to ask for them to step up enforcement of the rules as they have been explained to us.

And to unwrap the implied (non-existant) intent on my part from your statement, I have never objected to anyone petitioning for enforcement of the rules. Again, and again, and again, I'm saying it's never as simple as the forum participants think it is. I'm all for enforcement of the rules. I'm opposed to people thinking "If they'd only...everything would be better."

 

[DeletedUser13415]

But you are touting simplistic methods of catching cheating that will only catch dumb cheaters.

Read the thread title "Inno's dealing with push accounts needs drastic improvement discussion"
Stop expanding the scope of this thread to ridding the world of any and every form of cheating possible. We're trying to end a singular specific type of cheating.

So, you aren't saying there are more than one class of cheater, except that there's a class you care about and a class you don't care about.

We agree on this point. You're right I do only care about one type of cheater right now: The kind that I'm aware of.

What I'm doing over and over again despite the efforts of others to paint it as something else, is saying that things are not black and white, and that almost any question that begins with "Why don't they just..." is failing to take into account that there are a variety of confounding factors.

No one thinks it's black and white. And we're over and over again telling you you're hypothetical's are without merit...

One of the places my mind goes is "maybe the obvious push account is operated by developers for some non-obvious test, or to see if people will contact them and ask about the best way to cheat so they can keep an eye on them

The fact that your mind goes there says something. It says that you're troll and I'm no longer going to engage in debate with you. Because the only reason for saying something that farfetched and illogical is to get a response back.

 

[DeletedUser6653]

It says that you're troll and I'm no longer going to engage in debate with you

You are a multi account with another multi account defending multi's and yet you accuse someone else of being a troll...?

 

[SoggyShorts]

Again, and again, and again, I'm saying it's never as simple as the forum participants think it is.

And I disagree. Sometimes it really is that simple.
Take just the worst example of that one player on US2 we are all talking about.

2 possibilities exist
Either Inno has sent a letter or not.
-If they have not yet done so, are asking Inno to send a warning letter.
-If they have sent a letter, we can see that that it has gone unheeded as the player's behaviour hasn't changed. That means it's time to go to step 2

2 possibilities exist
There is either a step 2 or not.
-If there was a step 2 like a temporary suspension, KP removal, or deletion of the alt accounts, we would be able to see this change.
-If there is no step 2 we are asking inno to create one.

You are a multi account with another multi account defending multi's and yet you accuse someone else of being a troll...?

Read the thread, and try again.

 

[DeletedUser3507]

And I disagree. Sometimes it really is that simple.
Take just the worst example of that one player on US2 we are all talking about.

.

Realize each one of theses push accounts only have tier 1 good being made in large quantities,. Also as I stated there all designed almost exactly
alike, and all there kp's are going to the big accounts wonders not 1 placed in there own. Oh and all the pictures are the same.

Now tell me how there not guilty of pushing. And should be dealt with whatever way is appropriate like deleting all of them, or at least removing all there cheated wonder ranking points.

 

[Ashrem]

Read the thread title "Inno's dealing with push accounts needs drastic improvement discussion"

I'm sorry that my replying to a couple of specific points failed to completely encompass the only point allowed in your thread. Will you be using over-sized bold type to attack everyone who makes a response on the forums that isn't entirely and only in conformity with the subject of the thread?

Am I not permitted to disagree that it needs drastic improvement? Drastic is another one of those words that is getting softened by abuse. I'll reserve drastic improvement for things like the environment, health care, and the legal system than-you-very-much. I'd like Inno to be more transparent and responsive in dealing with abuses of the rules, but I'm not going to pretend the world is ending because my FS will never be in the top 10 because there are people abusing the system.

And I disagree. Sometimes it really is that simple.
Take just the worst example of that one player on US2 we are all talking about.

2 possibilities exist
Either Inno has sent a letter or not.

- Inno and xxx have exchanged Several letters and are negotiating
- Inno is xxxx, and are working on figuring out why something happens on the live servers that doesn't happen on their Test server
- Inno asked xxxx to stop, and xxxx asked Inno to talk their counsel because their interpretation is that they are not in violation of the ToS

Off the top of my head, more than 2 possibilities exist.

 

[DeletedUser13415]

No, just when i copy and paste forum titles and don't bother to change the formatting. Edited.

 

[SoggyShorts]

@Ashrem
I'm sorry, but I think you're grasping at straws.
Really, what what could that "several letters" conversation be about?

Inno: "Stop what you are doing, or else ____________"
Cheater: "Ummm, can I keep doing ________? Maybe just a little _____"
Inno: "No."
Cheater: "I'm calling my lawyer."
Inno: "Ok, be sure to give him a copy of our ToS, meanwhile your alt accounts have been suspended."
Inno:"P.S. SoggyShorts spent a lot of time trying to find a single successful lawsuit of anything like an account ban and couldn't, so good luck."

Keep in mind it's been several weeks since this player was reported, and they clearly log in every day, so the conversation shouldn't take very long to wrap up, even if lawyers were involved which come on, they probably aren't.

I know you love to find even the slightest possible flaw in any theory, and that's usually a good thing as it makes people think about the subject more deeply and from other angles, but your "what ifs" on this one are much weaker than usual..

 

[DeletedUser12423]

You guys must be really, really bored. This topic isn't just old, it's lame. You should report cheaters once, and follow up once after a bit of time. But hey, to each their own. Inno does their job, and does a good job at it. There is a difference between feedback and whining. I'm sorry ^ ^

There is a really fun event going on, when you're ready to actually play the game!

 

[SoggyShorts]

You should report cheaters once, and follow up once after a bit of time.

And if nothing apparent happens, then what? Nothing? Give up?

Inno does their job, and does a good job at it.

There isn't a lot of evidence to support this statement. If you have evidence of cheaters being dealt with, please share.

There is a difference between feedback and whining.

Indeed there is, unfortunately on these forums the difference is often perceived as
If I agree with the poster, it's feedback
If I disagree with them, they're just a whiner.

 

[DeletedUser12423]

There isn't a lot of evidence to support this statement. If you have evidence of cheaters being dealt with, please share

Hey Sog, I was refering to this thread in general, not directed at you. And yes, there have been at least three people that were accused of cheating that have disappeared from even the forums since I started. The original thread that this one somehow replaced (which should be closed) has their names in it, somewhere. And really, do you guys actually play the game or complain about how other people are playing it?

I mean, come on. What isn't negative in this thread, is downright silly.

 

[Ashrem]

@Ashrem
I'm sorry, but I think you're grasping at straws.

The difference is that you seem to think I'm arguing about a specific case, when all I'm saying is that people should stop thinking their opinions are the be-all and end-all. I'm not grasping at anything, I just don't care. But when someone goes to the effort to bold that only

2 possibilities exist

when I can come up with several others (regardless of how likely they are) with no effort at all, I'm going to call you out for imposing your will over the facts.

 

[DeletedUser6653]

Keep in mind it's been several weeks since this player was reported, and they clearly log in every day, so the conversation shouldn't take very long to wrap up, even if lawyers were involved which come on, they probably aren't.

Agreed, except it has been several months, not weeks.

You guys must be really, really bored. This topic isn't just old, it's lame. You should report cheaters once, and follow up once after a bit of time. But hey, to each their own. Inno does their job, and does a good job at it. There is a difference between feedback and whining. I'm sorry ^ ^

cheaters who have been reported months ago with no effect... as for "Inno does a good job" lol what? Inno-the company-has many good games that have competent developers, elvenar is not one of those (for the record though, elvenar has an awesome mod staff!)

edit- im not sucking up here, i do greatly respect the mod team on the forums. i also think the majority of the devs for elvenar need to be re-placed however.

 

[SoggyShorts]

But when someone goes to the effort to bold that only
↑
2 possibilities exist
when I can come up with several others (regardless of how likely they are) with no effort at all, I'm going to call you out for imposing your will over the facts.

I stand by that statement. There are only 2 possibilities, either they sent a letter, or not.
Sending multiple letters is not a new possibility, it is covered by "sent a letter"
They sent a letter, then another
They sent a letter, and went for coffee
They sent a letter and danced a jig

Those are all covered under the possibility that they sent a letter, just like anything that you suggested may have followed sending a letter is also covered.
Then follows the rest that since these players were reported months ago, something more should be done as 1,2,4, or 50 letters (if there were any sent) aren't having enough effect.

You seem to get offended by the use of bold sometimes. It's not meant to be shouting, it's there to help with easy reading and formatting.

Agreed, except it has been several months, not weeks.

Believe me, I really wanted to say "months" but I feared if I was off by even a minute I figured the post would get dumped all over as if the slightest error in a statement (real or perceived) was even remotely the point here.

The difference is that you seem to think I'm arguing about a specific case, when all I'm saying is that people should stop thinking their opinions are the be-all and end-all.

No one cares about this. "There may be exceptions, and some statements made by players in this thread might not take everything into consideration in every single instance of cheating?" Shocker.

What almost everyone other than you is talking about is a starting point. First go after the biggest most famous cheater. Then move to the next, and hopefully the message that inno will not tolerate cheating will be heard.

 

[Ashrem]

I stand by that statement. There are only 2 possibilities, either they sent a letter, or not.
Sending multiple letters is not a new possibility, it is covered by "sent a letter"
They sent a letter, then another
They sent a letter, and went for coffee
They sent a letter and danced a jig

Those are all covered under the possibility that they sent a letter, just like anything that you suggested may have followed sending a letter is also covered.

They only cover the possibilities where sending a letter is a required and/or useful step. Your decision tree from that point is predicated on that requirement. Your step two ignores any post-letter or post-non-letter action that players can't see. You carefully list the things we might be able to see if they did them, but then you ignore the fact that there might be actions we can't see in your second set of "only 2 possibilities"

The first of your second set of "2 possibilities" ignores the possibility that sending a letter is pointless for myriad other reasons, such as, they already know exactly what is happening, and that is none of anybody else's business. It ignores the possibility that no second step is required.

I get that people don't like that as a possibility (I don't like it myself), and maybe it isn't the case, but nobody arguing on these forums knows more than they can see by looking at a given city. They don't know if the player in question owns a significant interest in the game, or spends 25000 Euros a month on Diamonds and the developers are tolerating their abuse of the rules because it keeps paying the bills. We all want a level a playing field in our games. Life is not a level playing field.