Adjust spire set goods output

[michmarc]

Reading all of this makes me agree that changing the various good productions (but especially scrolls) to Boost+X is really needed. When I first got the set, I always thought it odd that it produced a fixed good (rather than something relative to your boost, or all three) but I have observed that even though I'm Silk-boosted, I end up with more scrolls than I know what to do with. [And I only have one set -- the surplus of scrolls comes from the overabundance of scrolls in the trader.]

I've noticed similar things where Tree Gum is very abundant in the trader and Moonstone somewhat abundant. I usually have to offer an incentive to get Platinum when I post Moonstone [my boost] in trade.

 

[Palavyn]

Moonstone is my boost, and it's annoying that no one ever wants it because the moonstone library reduces its value. I have to create trades at a loss to get the other S1 goods. I don't mind the loss. It's the extra time I have to spend to create trades and edit the trades that is annoying. So please add something that makes moonstone worth the same or fix the trader to reflect the reduced value so I don't have to edit the trade every time.

 

[Risen Malchiah]

As a scrolls-boosted player, yeah, the existence of these buildings probably hurts me. I'm sitting on a massive stockpile that's hard to give away. But even if the change would help me, I still don't want to change existing buildings, good or bad. The devs can make future versions different (so existing buildings remain unchanged) or the set can be expanded to incorporate other boosts.

 

[AtaguS]

The devs can make future versions different (so existing buildings remain unchanged) or the set can be expanded to incorporate other boosts.

I like this idea on the surface of things, but I worry that it only kicks the problem down the road. Will we next have an excess of silk and then Elixer, ect? Seems the idea of having a set which produces a great amount of any one type of good will ineveitably reduce the value of the factoties making that good and throw a boosted player off in their ability to trade. Perhaps the problems with the moonstone library is just how much it provides and how easily it is acquired in the spire. I say easy understanding that is a relative term here...but let's agree it is a set which is far more readily acquired than any other out there. As Yogi Dave said, as with any new game feature there are bound to be imbalance issues unforeseen and the moonstone library feels like just that. I would personally rather see it nerfed than a ramp up of other sets creating similar imbalances for other goods boosted players.

 

[Fayeanne]

Maybe they should just nerf the Moonstone set to generate 1 scroll per day. XD

Players could still use it to satisfy that quest in Fairies where the guy asks for 1 scroll. XD

(It'd fit right in with the Endless Scrolls offering 1 population...because of the one guy standing on top.)

(NOTE: I'm joking here... Though I suppose one possible solution would be to reduce the Moonstone set's goods production in some manner. It wouldn't completely solve the problem but might make it so that at least players can produce goods via manufactories faster than with the library set, thereby reducing the value of using the library in lieu of manufactories.)

 

[Risen Malchiah]

@AtaguS Well, if it was boost+1 like most other things, then it alleviates that imbalance. Some would make scrolls, while others would make crystal or silk. So in theory, I agree that changing it would make things better overall. But just don't like the concept of buildings changing function after people have acquired them. There are likely players who specifically played the Spire with the intention of getting these, so it would be unfair to suddenly change things on them. (And I certainly don't like nerfing. Keep your hands off my Venars. )

Personally, I like the Museum, Library & Gallery idea where each building produces its own unique set of goods, but I'm a stickler for names matching a building's function. It makes sense to me that a Library produces scrolls. The question then is how would 2 additional buildings affect the set as a whole and would it become too powerful if everyone could build a massive set that makes all T2 goods?

Not an easy fix. Doing nothing continues the imbalance. Changing things potentially upsets players who use the set. And adding new buildings adds yet more buildings to the prize options for people who aren't interested, while also potentially making it too powerful for those who build it.

 

[Ashrem]

NOTE: I'm joking here...

Just about time to ressurect the thread about how Elvenar isn't a game at all, but rather a large psychology experiment to see how many ways you can irritate people and still get them to fork over money for electrons with no lasting effect.

 

[Kekune]

Tongue-in-cheek nerfing suggestions aside, all concerns/objections have centered on the consequences of changing the characteristics of buildings actively in use. Does anyone see other problems, or elements of the overall proposal that don't make sense?

There seems to be enough interest to put this to a vote, but as we've seen with other ideas in this new system, it's better to hash out concerns now and not during voting.

 

[Risen Malchiah]

There seems to be enough interest to put this to a vote, but as we've seen with other ideas in this new system, it's better to hash out concerns now and not during voting.

I wouldn't go for a vote yet. The proposal needs to iron out whether you are proposing a change to existing buildings, or letting them stay as is, or suggesting additional buildings for the set. Those 3 choices will likely have very different voting outcomes.

Also, is the proposal just to change the Moonstone Library, or to also change the smaller buildings which produce Moonstone, Tree Gum, Cosmic Bismuth and Dust (depending on chapter), which would mean overhauling the entire set. Your proposal also mentions steel, which I don't see being affected at all unless your reference to steel players is due to them being boosted in Tree Gum.

 

[Kekune]

I wouldn't go for a vote yet.

Nope, I wouldn't either. I just mean that looks like a likely outcome given the level of interest and discussion.

I'd was hoping to get more commentary on different topics (if there is any) before I incorporate what's already been said into an updated proposal.

Also, is the proposal just to change the Moonstone Library, or to also change the smaller buildings which produce Moonstone, Tree Gum, Cosmic Bismuth and Dust (depending on chapter), which would mean overhauling the entire set.

The proposal is for the whole set.

Your proposal also mentions steel, which I don't see being affected at all unless your reference to steel players is due to them being boosted in Tree Gum.

Yes, that was my meaning but I understand it could be clearer. I'll tidy that up too.

 

[Sir Squirrel]

Agree, I think all the set buildings should give your boosted good or your boost +1 on buildings that give S goods.

 

[Kekune]

Conversation seems to have stalled, so I've updated the original post. Mostly, I rephrased it and tidied it up a bit. I also added in the cons identified by @Yogi Dave and @Risen Malchiah related to changing existing buildings.

I did keep the original proposal to change the existing set to a boost-relative output. I understand the related concern that it's not ideal to change existing building stats, but two beliefs won out:

• An even playing field and functional game/trade mechanics are more important than some players being frustrated by a change
• It's important to submit a proposal that can be implemented quickly and easily, or risk not having any solution at all

Is there further feedback on this version?

 

[Risen Malchiah]

Thank you. The updated version is more precise and includes the cons that have been mentioned. I can see a lot of people voting in favor of this. I still think those cons are a significant factor, but including them gives a more balanced perspective. I'd still vote against it, but if this ever gets implemented, it would actually benefit me since my boosts are Scrolls, Tree Gum, and Cosmic Bismuth.

 

[AtaguS]

Conversation seems to have stalled, so I've updated the original post. Mostly, I rephrased it and tidied it up a bit. I also added in the cons identified by @Yogi Dave and @Risen Malchiah related to changing existing buildings.

I did keep the original proposal to change the existing set to a boost-relative output. I understand the related concern that it's not ideal to change existing building stats, but two beliefs won out:

• An even playing field and functional game/trade mechanics are more important than some players being frustrated by a change
• It's important to submit a proposal that can be implemented quickly and easily, or risk not having any solution at all

Is there further feedback on this version?

Great summary, and I couldn't agree more. It'll have my vote for sure

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Just a side note for this that may make this a little less likely to happen, but for those of you not in chapter 16 yet, or do not have a maxed main hall in chapter 15 to look at next level requirements, the two main hall upgrades for chapter 16 require 1 million and 1.3 million scrolls. So be careful not to shoot yourselves in the foot by getting all the excess scrolls taken away before you need them. Also, there are researches in chapter 16 that require 400-500k scrolls each, so I really think Inno took the scrolls overload into account when they wrote chapter 16.

 

[Ashrem]

Just a side note for this that may make this a little less likely to happen, but for those of you not in chapter 16 yet, or do not have a maxed main hall in chapter 15 to look at next level requirements, the two main hall upgrades for chapter 16 require 1 million and 1.3 million scrolls.

There's the haphazard balancing I've come to know and love.....

 

[Kekune]

Just a side note for this that may make this a little less likely to happen, but for those of you not in chapter 16 yet, or do not have a maxed main hall in chapter 15 to look at next level requirements, the two main hall upgrades for chapter 16 require 1 million and 1.3 million scrolls. So be careful not to shoot yourselves in the foot by getting all the excess scrolls taken away before you need them. Also, there are researches in chapter 16 that require 400-500k scrolls each, so I really think Inno took the scrolls overload into account when they wrote chapter 16.

I didn't add up all the techs, but I see a substantial amount of silk and crystal in there, too. Have you compared them?

As for the main hall upgrades, I can't imagine that an ever-increasing surplus of scrolls is balanced by two upgrades, no matter how expensive they are.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

I didn't add up all the techs, but I see a substantial amount of silk and crystal in there, too. Have you compared them?

As for the main hall upgrades, I can't imagine that an ever-increasing surplus of scrolls is balanced by two upgrades, no matter how expensive they are.

No, I am too far into the chapter to compare them. Since none of this has made it to elvengems or any other website, we need someone just at the beginning of the chapter to add everything up.

I did not go straight from chapter 15 into 16, so I had time to accumulate resources, so I am not a good comparison for how tight the chapter could make scroll supplies. Plus, with five full library sets out since sometime in chapter 14, I had plenty of time to stockpile. My 7 million scrolls might be only 1 or 2 million, or a lot less, for a lot of players, especially if they have a lot worse luck in the Spire than myself or @Ashrem and his multiple library sets.

 

[Risen Malchiah]

Unless I missed something, here's what's needed for chapter 16.

TOTAL
3430k 3100k 3420k
2090k 3030k 2100k
1520k 1520k 1520k
Moonstone: 925k Platinum: 920k Tree gum: 1170k
Obsidian: 815k Arcane Ink: 820k Royal Velvet: 805k
Silly Soap: 680k Alloy Shrooms: 700k Cosmic Bismuth: 690k

It seems that chapter 16 does require higher amounts of scrolls and tree gum. Whether or not this is meant to account for a goods imbalance in the game, I couldn't say.

 

[ajqtrz]

I like scrolls. I give them to my orcs to burn and they love the fires. It's a win-win thing here. But, as a boosted in scrolls player I too wonder about having 2 million scrolls and 25 crystal and 25 silk....a bit of an imbalance (okay, not 25 but usually 200-400k of the other T2's). I try to trade but have to offer a 20-30% discount and even then, if I'm asking for elixir it has to be near 50% discount. So it is imbalanced and we can see it when they introduced the moonstone library.

I like the idea of boosted +1 or even boosted -1. On the other hand, how about letting the player select the goods produced? You get a library, you check a box as to which you wish to have and now you have it. Perhaps you could even change it by putting it into storage and taking it out again? Flexibility of production and nobody needs to lose what they have. Hmmm..... I even like this idea! LOL.

AJ