Advice/Opinions About AW/Culture

[HJK84]

I've seen a few threads about AW statistics.
Although I don't think I've seen a thread about the following question.

I'm planning ahead for AW's.
Currently there's 3 that give Culture; Martial Monastery, Watchtower Ruins & Thrones of the High Men.

My question is, does the culture from these AW's beat normal Culture buildings. This of course after I upgrade the AW's a few lvl's, min. lvl 5 which gives +10%C for 2 of them.
Having 3 AW's, is costly in room, but Imo. you need more room dedicated to normal culture buildings. So having 2 AW's that each give +10%C along with the other benefits and the TOHM stacking up culture... might be wiser?

I should mention, I'm not in a rush (as I've stated in other threads). Some people rather not spend time upgrading AW's, and would instead go up in tech/chapters.
Sure does depend on your game style. Mine is slow, upgrading AW's to where I'm comfortable and happy, then moving on to the next chapter.

One of my quotes in another thread apply to this one as well:

"For now, I'm a lil sapling growing slowly. Being wise by spreading my roots and making them strong. Before I grow bigger and get hit by stronger elements"

Any advice and opinions is welcomed and appreciated

 

[DeletedUser9601]

So, I think this comes down to math (as always), and balancing secondary effects.
Math first. When I am trying to figure out if a cultural building from an event, AW, etc. is any good, I compare it on a per-square basis to the best non-diamond cultural building available to me. @Mykan has a great guide on this where he did the math through Woodelves (https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/mykans-guide-culture.4206/) - see the second reply in the thread.

Now, the math is hard, because the AW culture values increase as you level the AWs, and also as your city improves (e.g., MM culture value is a function of Required Culture, and your AW level).
If I were to build the Watchtower Ruins, I would get 3,644 culture. It is a 4x5 building, so we do 3,644 culture / 20 squares, for a per-square value of 182.2.

I am in Sorcs and Dragons, and the best cultural building available to me right now is the Chess Piece (in a few weeks it will be Magic Maze). Chess Piece is 3x1 for 790 culture, for 263.3.

So on a pure culture efficiency standpoint, just a cultural building is better. So if you just want culture, avoid these AWs.

Secondary Effects Second. But all these AWs don't just provide culture (and all those pure culture buildings cost gold and supplies and build times), and that's where its harder to do the math.
Watchtower
For me, the Watchtower also offers a 12% neighborly help increase. Right now, I'm getting 24K culture (mouse over your sun/cloud icon to see) from my neighbors. That means the Watchtower would bump up another 2,880 culture (24K *.12%). When you add that back up to the math up top, now the AW provides 6,524 culture (=2,880+3,644), for a 326.2 per sq. value. That's much better! So if all else were equal, I'd build it, IIIIFFF I am consistently getting that much culture from neighborly help. If I really needed this culture, I'd watch my NH numbers for a few days, and see where I average. Because as you can see, if you don't get NH all the time, then this AW is a bad use of space. If you get lots of NH, its great!
I of course don't have a Watchtower because the best event culture buildings are typically equal to or better than what the Watchtower can offer. I'm also in S&D, where culture+mana buildings provide most of the culture I need. But it is generally a GOOD WONDER if you're in need of culture.

Monastery
Not going to dig into it too much, because its hard to value how much 5% troop strength has. Given that the baseline culture on a per-sq basis for the Monastery is comparable to Watchtower (170 sq vs 186), plus your troops are 5% stronger (all troops), I built it, am currently levelling it and I like it. I am active in tournaments and I overscout, so I am spending troops every day. If I wasn't fighting ever, its not good enough on a per-square basis to justify. So I treat the MM is a decent culture building that also greatly improves my troops.

Throne
As far as I can tell, this is a trash wonder. Its bad on a per square basis for me at level 1, and ranking points don't mean much to me. Ignore it.

So in conclusion, build the Monastery if you fight alot. Build the Watchtower if you are in a 4+ visits a week fellowship, and that FS is fairly full. But also keep in mind how much culture you need, and what boost level you want to get. Going from 150 to 160 requires a lot of culture for only 10% more goods/supplies. Same with 160 to 170.

 

[NightshadeCS]

During one of the live videos with Timon, he mentioned that he has all of the AW's in his city. He stated that they were far more valuable than any of the regular buildings, and he knows this because he designed them! I am not sure how far up you have to level them in order for them to currently beat out other buildings that are available. While that statement may not be enough for the players who are number-fiends, it is enough for me!

Plus, as a quest-cycler, I am often sitting on extra kp and we have a good kp exchange program in our FS for AW's.

 

[DeletedUser9601]

During one of the live videos with Timon, he mentioned that he has all of the AW's in his city. He stated that they were far more valuable than any of the regular buildings, and he knows this because he designed them!

I think he's probably right, though some of the military AWs don't really have a corresponding building (like Needle of the Tempest or Blooming Trader Guild). I think you could probably do very well with an "all AWs" city. I do think there are some drawbacks/considerations though:
-AWs are massive buildings. Sometimes it can be very difficult to fit all of these buildings in neatly. Especially in early cities.
-AWs have the benefit of no gold/supply costs, but they also have a much higher "sunk cost" if you want to change your city focus or delete a building for a better one. For instance, a lot of Orc Chapter guides recommend deleting nearly all of your culture buildings, to make room for farms. That would be a hard pill to swallow if you were deleting a Level 5 Watchtower.
-AWs make quests harder. You might get the same supplies/goods by having a Tome, Excavation, Prosperity Towers, Mountain Halls and Crystal Lighthouse vs corresponding factories and workshops. But that means X fewer workshops, and Y fewer tier factories. This is a minor consideration, but not one to be taken lightly for people who want to win an FA, or finish an event in 2 weeks.

But all in all, I think I'm probably not building enough AWs, so I'm very interested to hear the experiences of someone who builds them all.

 

[HJK84]

@Tedious Thanks.

I'm active in all tournies, heavily... current gems, causing me a headache, lol
But anyway, I have built MM, and will be upgrading it.
I had done some math, but I missed that part for +12% from Watchtower. I do get 4+ helps a day, if people read my city name and hit correctly, lol
Only reason I wanted Throne, is for the Culture, and I do plan on building many AW's, so I figured it would/might scale better against normal culture buildings.
Saved Mykans link.

@NightshadeCS Thanks.
I'm not plan' on building all AW's though, but many of them.
The input you got, was it only if you build all AW's? Or was there a min. you could build that out scale normal culture buildings?

 

[NightshadeCS]

The input you got, was it only if you build all AW's? Or was there a min. you could build that out scale normal culture buildings?

It was only a general statement, that AW's are worth the space and KP input because they are much more powerful than regular buildings. Here is the video where Timon talks about the AW's. Go toward the end, about 30 minutes in.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1539649579457601

 

[Mykan]

It has been a while since I did some number crunching on this, generally I felt the watchtower and MM was worth it but had a hard time justifying the Thrones.
The watchtower provides the same culture plus help bonus for a smaller footprint. So if you are not a military person than the watchtower is the way to go, otherwise monastery, or personally both

Obviously every persons town varies but thought I would provide the numbers on my current town/wonders to give an idea of them. Due to monastery and watchtower I have been deleting normal pure culture buildings as I get over 1/4 of my culture from wonders not counting the help bonus from watchtower.

Monastery at level 13 gives 832 culture per square
Watchtower is only level 1 and it is giving me 312 culture per square plus secondary benefit.
Thrones I have not built, if I did it is only 89 culture per square at level 1 with 90+ wonder levels. I need to regularly reassess this one as I suspect eventually it will be worth it at least with a little KP investment

 

[SoggyShorts]

Another perspective:
When you are looking at a culture AW, you are obviously going to compare them to normal culture buildings, but that might not be all that useful.
Depending on your chapter, luck, and how much effort you put into events, you may find that you don't actually ever need any normal culture buildings.

I haven't placed a pure culture building in over a year, and since finishing orcs I have always had 150% culture boost before any visits.
With visits, I hit the 170% cap 24/7, So even a level 25 watchtower would actually do nothing for me. (other than increase seeds production, but any wonder can do that)

Once you get to chapter 9 many players find that pure culture buildings are no longer needed since they place so many culture&mana buildings to meet the tech requirements.

 

[HJK84]

@NightshadeCS That's cool. Thanks.
@Mykan lmk if you do the full math for Thrones, lol. I also fight all the time, so MM is crucial Imo.

@SoggyShorts Ever since I started playing, I've been probably the most active in my world

I've only missed the 1st solo events Gp, I think it was... Spring, I had joined the game while it had already started so, couldn't get the Gp.
After that, I've gotten all Gps, for solo events.

The FA events... I think the 1st 1 I was eligible to partake it, we got to stage 3 completed. Since that one, never again.
FA isn't active enough, and with many high end players, the value of the Gp's wasn't to their liking. Which I respect. But still some helped, cause they had room to build and bored, lol

But I don't fully agree with your opinion. I mean some people overbuild and so on, therefore they might need culture buildings to keep on track.
Although, I do agree "in general" culture buildings might become obsolete. As I'm still early in the game, I can't keep a 150%, I hit 150 due to visits, would hit more if FS or Neighbors were more active.
Then again, I don't care much about it, cause I boost out Beverages for hours on end.

I do know about those culture/mana buildings that will come up later for me.

Thread's meant for future considerations, with the knowledge ya'll brought to me, I'm confident I will eventually be removing many normal culture buildings.
Unless ofc, the only way is to win FA stage 3 prizes, then... I won't be. Unless I join another FA, lol

 

[SoggyShorts]

But I don't fully agree with your opinion. I mean some people overbuild and so on, therefore they might need culture buildings to keep on track.

If they buy premium expansions or scout&clear like crazy, yes they can overbuild.
However, if they do overbuild, then they should be moving through the techs faster, and therefore will need more mana buildings, which again reduces the number of pure culture buildings that they need. You'll feel it the most in chapter 9 when the best culture building is also the best mana building, and if you build the recommended 12-15 willows, you would have to try very hard to overbuild enough to drop under 150%

Another aspect of culture that players often overlook is the half wasted buffs from visits.

The cap on culture is 170% + spells. So if you have 170% and then someone buffs your 4 spelled buildings, you get +20%, but the + xxxx culture is wasted
Instead, it is better to have 160%, then when they buff those same 4 buildings you get +20% and the xxxx culture brings you up to 170%

Same 4 visits, but the culture portion of the buffs isn't wasted.

Your build strategy will vary wildly with how active your FS is. I get 22-25 visits a day, so having a "natural" culture much over 150% is a total waste since those buffs bring me to 170% anyways.

If you get 3-6 visits per day, it's going to be a totally different experience.

 

[DeletedUser8187]

I have the thrones, and in the middle of upgrading to level 4. Seems I picked wrong, I need the culture. I'm at 160, might even be 150. I need 4 visits to get to 170, which I get for 4 hr window in the evenings. Which is when I play. But i'm behind in my upgrades, so my culture is going to take a big hit. Is there a wonder that will help. I have the needles-level 2, Crystal lighthouse-level-2, golden abyss level-7, thrones-3, mountain hall-level-2. I'm mostly interested in population and culture, and extending my 4 hr window by upgrading my lighthouse.

 

[samidodamage]

I have the thrones, and in the middle of upgrading to level 4. Seems I picked wrong, I need the culture. I'm at 160, might even be 150. I need 4 visits to get to 170, which I get for 4 hr window in the evenings. Which is when I play. But i'm behind in my upgrades, so my culture is going to take a big hit. Is there a wonder that will help. I have the needles-level 2, Crystal lighthouse-level-2, golden abyss level-7, thrones-3, mountain hall-level-2. I'm mostly interested in population and culture, and extending my 4 hr window by upgrading my lighthouse.

Sounds like you're not much of a military person, but I find the Martial Monastery gives good culture even if the boost to troop health is not needed. Lvl 1 starts at 6% of required culture and increases 1% per lvl through 5; lvl 6 adds 2% bringing a lvl 6 to 12% of required culture. Mine is at lvl 5 and is adding 4113 culture; not bad for a 5x5 bldg, 164 per square. Unlike a straight culture bldg it does require a road, but all wonders need roads.

 

[Mykan]

The watchtower is useful if your purely interested in culture. It gets very good culture per square as it levels and you grow. Plus it increase the bonus from neighbourly help, it combos nicely with the lighthouse.

 

[samidodamage]

The watchtower is useful if your purely interested in culture.

I must have looked at this one before, but just did so again. It's slightly smaller (4x5) and looks like a good culture wonder. Since I'm okay with 125%, I'm sure that's why I dismissed it out of hand for my play style. But I agree, this looks like the better wonder for culture.

 

[DeletedUser8187]

I must have looked at this one before, but just did so again. It's slightly smaller (4x5) and looks like a good culture wonder. Since I'm okay with 125%, I'm sure that's why I dismissed it out of hand for my play style. But I agree, this looks like the better wonder for culture.

Thanks for the advice. I auto fight, then when I start to lose I cater.
Looks like I'll be switching wonders. At least I'm doing it now, before I level it up to much.

 

[HJK84]

So I was doing some math. Since I've unlocked Thrones.

A quick calculation;
with a lvl 6 Thrones, and 70-75+ AW lvls, you'd get a value of ~118 culture per square.
If you're at 90+ lvls in AW's, like Mykan, then you're doing much much better ~168 culture per square (which is quite great)
I was comparing to Campfire BBQ, 5x4 2900C = 145 per square.

I was seriously thinking of building Thrones. But now that I've realized I'm quite far from getting a fair per square culture value, I'll probably build it later down the road, when I have much more lvl'd AW's

 

[DeletedUser2207]

In chapter 12 it would take 231 AW levels for a lvl 6 Thrones to match Café Masquerade culture/square (Not taking roads into account)

It's a good idea to check unbuilt AWs every once in a while but I'm positive by the time I have 231 AW levels the best culture I'll be able to build will also be better than Café Masquerade

 

[Ashrem]

I'm positive by the time I have 231 AW levels the best culture I'll be able to build will also be better than Café Masquerade

I suspect you mean better than the Thrones, and I agree. Unless you are chasing rank/score, the thrones strikes me as waste of space.

 

[SoggyShorts]

@HJK84
Also worth considering is that once you unlock that campfire barbeque, you are almost in woodelves, and pure culture becomes much much less important.
The weeping willow that you get at the beginning of ch9 is 5x5 with 3900, and the recommended number is 12-15 of those. If you level a thrones up to 6 by then you may very well feel stuck with it.

 

[HJK84]

In chapter 12 it would take 231 AW levels for a lvl 6 Thrones to match Café Masquerade culture/square (Not taking roads into account)

It's a good idea to check unbuilt AWs every once in a while but I'm positive by the time I have 231 AW levels the best culture I'll be able to build will also be better than Café Masquerade

Ah, I was looking at Mykans Guide - Culture, the one closest in size and pure C was the building I mentioned. Hence I didn't "know" about the chap 12 C buildings

I suspect you mean better than the Thrones, and I agree. Unless you are chasing rank/score, the thrones strikes me as waste of space.

Yes, starting to realize this more and more, lol

@HJK84
Also worth considering is that once you unlock that campfire barbeque, you are almost in woodelves, and pure culture becomes much much less important.
The weeping willow that you get at the beginning of ch9 is 5x5 with 3900, and the recommended number is 12-15 of those. If you level a thrones up to 6 by then you may very well feel stuck with it.

Indeed, I saw the Weeping Willow stats. And I've read alot of certain chapters only needed the base buildings which already give enough C.
I didn't want to pun a mana/c building into the mix.

Thanks all for the reassurance, yet again