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    Your Elvenar Team

Ambassadors should not......

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
The last lesson was that those last few dots above the 2nd set of tricolors gain 300 points each but those 300 points is easier to win in the pit if you keep the big piles of difficult items needed in the last few dots.
I disagree with this assessment for the most part. There are some checkpoints not worth doing on stage 3, but a blanket statement to avoid all checkpoints above the 2nd tri-color is too broad and bad strategy. Let's use 6th checkpoint on green path of Stage 3 as an example (one immediately after the 2nd tri-color). Requirements are: 33 Guards, 23 Necklace, and 47 Arcanes. That gets you 300pts. To get 300pts in the Pit, you need 6 flips, or a full set of badge combos. Not all badges are equal in the Pit. Longevity in the Pit is to have enough Blacksmiths, Farmers, Necklaces, and Statues, but Farmers and Blacksmiths are usually the hardest to come by because they require gigantic real estate of workshops. This checkpoint only requires you to have 23 of the difficult badges and you're done, while avoiding any farmers and blacksmiths. To get the same 300pts in the Pit, you'd need 5 blacksmiths, 5 farmers, 5 necklaces, and 5 statues. To me, this is burning blacksmiths and farmers too early and unnecessarily. You need those at the tail end of the Pit when things start getting stuck and not flowing. Every 5 blacksmiths and 5 farmers are worth 300pts since the other badges are much easier to acquire and usually have enough to cover the set of 6 flips. Therefore, to use any other excess badge in the Pit, you must always have at least 5 blacksmiths/farmers/statues/necklaces. It's better to give up 23 Necklaces for 300 pts than burn 5 blacksmiths and 5 farmers. I go pretty hard on FAs and my FSs enjoy the teamwork. I have won several FAs. We pretty much spend the entire FA in the Pit so we have a good understanding of Pit longevity strategy and can execute it. We did 510 flips in the Pit last FA, or 85 cycles of the full set of 6 badge combos. Our mentality is we're not making badges for the maps. We make badges to survive the Pit for 5 days.
 

MichaelMichael

Active Member
I disagree with this assessment for the most part. There are some checkpoints not worth doing on stage 3, but a blanket statement to avoid all checkpoints above the 2nd tri-color is too broad and bad strategy. Let's use 6th checkpoint on green path of Stage 3 as an example (one immediately after the 2nd tri-color). Requirements are: 33 Guards, 23 Necklace, and 47 Arcanes. That gets you 300pts. To get 300pts in the Pit, you need 6 flips, or a full set of badge combos. Not all badges are equal in the Pit. Longevity in the Pit is to have enough Blacksmiths, Farmers, Necklaces, and Statues, but Farmers and Blacksmiths are usually the hardest to come by because they require gigantic real estate of workshops. This checkpoint only requires you to have 23 of the difficult badges and you're done, while avoiding any farmers and blacksmiths. To get the same 300pts in the Pit, you'd need 5 blacksmiths, 5 farmers, 5 necklaces, and 5 statues. To me, this is burning blacksmiths and farmers too early and unnecessarily. You need those at the tail end of the Pit when things start getting stuck and not flowing. Every 5 blacksmiths and 5 farmers are worth 300pts since the other badges are much easier to acquire and usually have enough to cover the set of 6 flips. Therefore, to use any other excess badge in the Pit, you must always have at least 5 blacksmiths/farmers/statues/necklaces. It's better to give up 23 Necklaces for 300 pts than burn 5 blacksmiths and 5 farmers. I go pretty hard on FAs and my FSs enjoy the teamwork. I have won several FAs. We pretty much spend the entire FA in the Pit so we have a good understanding of Pit longevity strategy and can execute it. We did 510 flips in the Pit last FA, or 85 cycles of the fullI

First off you are far more experienced and successful than me. I appreciate your sharing you experience. You know your stuff.

Your example is valid. and I generally agree with your assessment - some of these 300 point dots are definitely worth taking - which ones depend. I was overly broad. Consider that all of the items below the top 3 tricolors have always been completed by my fellowship even if some were not worth it. Perhaps you are more successful, but I find stopping players from wasting resources a challenge. The starting dot in the center path (blue?) is one I would love to avoid, but I have never been able to stop my team from filling it. I give you credit if you can keep resources off of it as it usually requires a pig pile of Blacksmith or Farmers or statues.

I 100% agree that Farmers and Blacksmiths are critical in the pit and overall for the reasons you note. Necklaces and Statues depend on inventory. In my last run my fellowship had a gross excess of Statues primarily because of poor planning. A huge amount was made in advance which all three goods leaders choose to queue up their manufacturies as statues again after two days of Necklaces - our mistake. The impact after 4 days we had twice as many Statues as Necklaces. The correct answer is for each do a mix of both statues and necklaces after day 2. I wish I'd gotten your advise sooner as my fellowship clearly made a rooky mistake here.

Given the building size differential and a well planned effort, Farmer and Blacksmiths are critical as you surmised. That together with Bracelets are usually pacing. I know of no way to mass produce bracelets. Difficulties on badges also depending on the make up of the group, Arcanes can be difficult for many players bellow chapter 15 or so that don't have good CC production. I also found Marbles and Druids short at times.

Perhaps your fellowship has more skilled leaders than mine, but I usually find players posting out items that they shouldn't. This convinced me to go to the pit sooner rather than later and personally hording a few items (and having others do the same) so we could push our fellowship into the pit at an optimal point. I expect other fellowships may be far more disciplined and organized. We are still a work in progress on that, but we are getting better. I have started reviewing player maps after the event starts so that the top producers of Goods and Supplies in their shanty towns can better coordinate. A full fellowship review also helps to coordinate the shift from goods to supplies throughout the event. Statues are the best to have before the event starts but after start and especially on the last day, more workshops is optimal.

If you choose to avoid, generally, Farmers Blacksmiths and Bracelets based 300 point dots, I agree with you. I would add that one also has to look at the specifics of your own fellowship which might add a few more items. In any case, one path needs to be completed entirely so we are talking how many of 6 are not worth doing. Incidentally, your example, while valid and a good example, would not apply as we chose to complete Green. We thought it the easiest path. Some of the six clearly would be mistakes to complete. In fact, my fellowship completed one or two optional dots above the top row of tricolors (on the blue and orange paths) because we thought them worth doing.

I was trying, in my post, to be general. When you get down to specifics as you pointed out, it is a little different. I appreciate your sharing your pit recommendations and I will definitely change our planning based on your advise going forward. Getting to #17 is very different than getting to #1 or #2. Thank you for your help!
 
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MichaelMichael

Active Member
@Darielle Do you find that "older people" make lots of mistakes? LOL I find it funny. Yeah, I am old but I am not sure my age causes my mistakes...maybe forgetfullness but not the just misunderstanding. Also, I have lots of old people in my fellowship. We could be in big trouble if they come up with a new type of event.
I find the only people that don't make mistakes are either dead or do nothing - just sayin'
 

Tavina

Member
Why would the game be designed for mages and under to that kind of power. The archmage should be the only one with access to all those settings and options described. Strange. The plural name for Archmage is Archmagi maybe some changes need to be made that way if an Archmage has to leave unexpectedly someone can still hold on to the Fellowship. Interesting topic.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
I have a somewhat different perspective on managing a fellowship. It is like herding cats. Getting everyone on board understanding when to apply fellowship reserves and when to go to the next level on the FA is too many people to get all on board. I have daily players but some I am fully convinced some have limitations in their abilities - by that I mean they are differently abled. I accept people for what they are. You never really know most of the people in your fellowship. If you can groom 2 or 3 to actually help manage the fellowship, you are doing well. If you can groom 5 or 10 - God love you - I don't have that ability. I need to take what I can get when filling out the roster. If they produce in the Tourney, are polite and climb the spire a bit - that is a win. Expecting them to understand all the nuances of fellowship group efforts when mine is probably the first high level fellowship they joined is not what I expect. If they are "experienced', that too often means serial quitters. I call that "add" a loss most of the time. My fellowship is #35, but that still means there are 34 fellowships that are in at least in one way better than mine.

If a player hasn't previously managed a fellowship, most players only learn the hard way. BTW when I demote a player for the FA, I always ask if the player wants that ability. If they do, they remain an Ambassador. Managing a fellowship is a lot of work and I am not sure redefining the abilities of different levels adds much - abilities are far more complex that 4 categories and adding complexity would hurt more than help in my considered opinion. But however INNO decides to change the game, I will adjust. I am just unsure what you might propose as an improvement and whether it actually will improve game play and ease the management of fellowships. Frankly, one of the reason I added more mages is so they could manage the key items you defined and I added Aussie (as a Mage) in particular to handle the night shift. As ArchMage, I concentrate on recruiting and keeping my roster full of happy and productive players. Ideally, my mages handle the rest.
I do not want to police, nor do 99% of the other players.
I am running my fellowship now for 7 years and i would not have surviced for this long if I "dictate" the rules.

Yes in theory your argument works, but there is a discrepancy beween a paper world and the real world.
Again if many fellowship resort to demoting players to avoid mistakes, then there is a real world problem and it should change.
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
In our FS we simply adjust all members not Mage or above to Fellows to avoid that from happening. Works like a charm. :}
1s & zeros , yes/no , boolian ...... doing the above is about 99% effective....
to boost that to 99.8% , just pick 2 ppl as flag pullers, demote everyone
else except the AM to fellow and be done with it.......

Those 2 ppl darn sure better know when to pull the flag !! ( correctly )
 

Quixotique

Active Member
I agree and disagree. No, it isn't accidental, but yes, it is accidental, in that the newer players don't realize that by accepting gifts (and what new person doesn't want to accept gifts?) they will be ruining the game play of their teammates. Even if they are told not to pull the flag, a lot of them don't realize that's what they're doing. Or I've known some older people to get flustered when they accidentally pull the flag and then accept because their flustered and not thinking. So maybe it's both accidental and not accidental, lol.
If it helps, imo:
1) An accident is where the action AND its consequences r unintended (playing soccer in the backyrd & breaking a window).
2) A mistake is wen the action is intentional but the consequences r not. (Throwing something at a window not realising it cud break it.)
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
If it helps, imo:
1) An accident is where the action AND its consequences r unintended (playing soccer in the backyrd & breaking a window).
2) A mistake is wen the action is intentional but the consequences r not. (Throwing something at a window not realising it cud break it.)
That's a good definition, but I was referring to another dictionary.com definition for accident: "any event that happens unexpectedly, without a deliberate plan."

A person who clicks the button does not usually have a deliberate plan to mess up the fellowship and bring shame to themselves with their names in highlights. That is unexpected. They usually just want the gifts and don't realize what it will do. I wouldn't call that a "deliberate plan."
 

Quixotique

Active Member
That's a good definition, but I was referring to another dictionary.com definition for accident: "any event that happens unexpectedly, without a deliberate plan."

A person who clicks the button does not usually have a deliberate plan to mess up the fellowship and bring shame to themselves with their names in highlights. That is unexpected. They usually just want the gifts and don't realize what it will do. I wouldn't call that a "deliberate plan."
The deliberate action is the clicking of the button. It's the consequences that r unintended.
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
The deliberate action is the clicking of the button. It's the consequences that r unintended.
Oh, I agree that there is a deliberate action ... but not a deliberate plan. That's the big difference in the definition.
 

Quixotique

Active Member
Oh, I agree that there is a deliberate action ... but not a deliberate plan. That's the big difference in the definition.
You can't complete a deliberate action without a deliberate plan. You plan to click on accept and you do it. Everything after that point is a consequence (unintended/unplanned in this case)
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
You can't complete a deliberate action without a deliberate plan. You plan to click on accept and you do it. Everything after that point is a consequence (unintended/unplanned in this case)
We can debate semantics forever with little result. (holds peace sign) Let's just say you win and move on, lol. :)
 

ajqtrz

Chef
Because I find it interesting I'll add that one assumes a person, upon deliberation, has reached an expectation about what will be the result of his/her actions and thus, after deliberation, does X, expecting Y. If I'm mistaken then the reaching of the wrong conclusion (followed by the deliberate action) will be an accident. After all, nobody deliberates to find the wrong answer, right? In their deliberation, therefore, they accidentally come to the wrong conclusion. It is possible because they've followed the wrong logical path, have bad information or some other cause.

So "deliberate" in this case, is both true -- the action was deliberate-- and false -- reaching the false conclusion wasn't intended and was an accident. ;)

Now wasn't that fun? LOL

AJ
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
Because I find it interesting I'll add that one assumes a person, upon deliberation, has reached an expectation about what will be the result of his/her actions and thus, after deliberation, does X, expecting Y. If I'm mistaken then the reaching of the wrong conclusion (followed by the deliberate action) will be an accident. After all, nobody deliberates to find the wrong answer, right? In their deliberation, therefore, they accidentally come to the wrong conclusion. It is possible because they've followed the wrong logical path, have bad information or some other cause.

So "deliberate" in this case, is both true -- the action was deliberate-- and false -- reaching the false conclusion wasn't intended and was an accident. ;)

Now wasn't that fun? LOL

AJ
Thanks, AJ; that sounds good to me, lol.
 

SoulsSilhouette

Buddy Fan Club member
K well, I'm old. The person in question who has accepted the chests, does have a reason I understand. GRANDCHILDREN. My grandson once bought diamonds because he was pressing buttons. Now, my sweetie little man did that to help his Nan out but I was more careful not to leave my city open when he was up. Her grandkid was interested in the game and thought that was what you did when you got to the top. Not sure it was understood by the child that it was an irrevocable act. Yes I was a little annoyed because I wanted to give our less active members a chance to put in a badge, but this is a game. It happens. I've screwed up before in a fellowship and got booted for it because I misread the message about it. So I try not to get too competitive and stuff about it. I'm too old to get myself worked up over something that is supposed to help me wind down. LOL.
 

MichaelMichael

Active Member
I do not want to police, nor do 99% of the other players.
I am running my fellowship now for 7 years and i would not have surviced for this long if I "dictate" the rules.

Yes in theory your argument works, but there is a discrepancy beween a paper world and the real world.
Again if many fellowship resort to demoting players to avoid mistakes, then there is a real world problem and it should change.
I am still curious how you propose to make things better.

I apologize for failing to clearly explain my thoughts on the role of a successful AM. I was trying reference from a game of my youth to explain the power relationship. My point was that the AM has virtually ZERO Power. People come and go at will. Yes, the AM can write rules (that no one has to follow) and can drop people (and have no members) and change titles, but those actions are of little real consequence. The only thing that matters in a successful fellowship is the relationships developed and the sense of accomplishment, teamwork and belonging - basically, "Is the fellowship fun?" Policing suggest a threat of coercive force, impossible in Elvenar. I regret my example missed the mark.

Our point of difference concerns the "value" of titles. You think of them as meaningful rewards to players conferring status. I do not believe they have any value beyond what they allow one to do. Many are enamored by titles, I am not. Your position is popular especially in the work place. As for me, I will gladly take the title of "peon" if it pays better, has duties I like, and the work-life flexibility I want. I respect your opinion, even if mine differs.

BTW, I am receptive to the idea of changing the abilities assigned to titles if they make the game work better.
 

MichaelMichael

Active Member
@mucksterme It was better that they booted me because I don't want to be in a fellowship with people who are that rigid. I make mistakes. I apologized and since that wasn't enough, it was better for me not to be around such lofty and perfect individuals. I wouldn't want to taint them with my normality.
the only people that do not make mistakes are dead.

Good riddance to bad rubbish - you are so much better off outside of that toxic fellowship
 
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