Ancient Wonders make me sad

[DeletedUser43]

I don't like this ancient wonders thing at all. I HATE how we are having to compete with each other for the rewards. I hate that I have to feel awful when I donate to someone knowing that I may be taking a reward away from someone else. I hate that it is feeling like a popularity contest where some folks are getting tons of help while others are feeling terrible and not getting any help. It just seems to go completely against the whole feeling we have here in Elvenar.

I don't like this whole thing at all. I need mountain halls shards or I can't build one. It will take me months and months to try to get the shards on my own through clearing sectors, or I have to be cutthroat and hurt other people in order to try to get through the fighting each other tooth and nail process.

I am very sad.

 

[DeletedUser61]

If you take a peek at https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/knowledge-point-clubs-an-analysis.1136/#post-7197, you'll be pleased to fine that the spreadsheet based KP Club, that we've developed in FoE over than past 2 years, nicely addresses your concerns.

• As folks contribute to a KP Club building, they accumulate KP Points.
  
• When they have enough points to cover their OWN AW, then we jump on it an level it within a few days.
• We use a profit sharing plan, so everybody gets the same % return on their investment.
• Rune Shards are distributed n per n level, to the top five winners. So once an AW reaches level 5 everybody will get at least one Rune Shard.
• Award Rune Shards are specific to THAT AW, so if you're focusing your KP contributions on Mountain Halls, with average luck you'll be able to open your own MH with as few as 9 level 6+ awards, 18 level 1-5 awards, minus any Rune Shards that you happen to have from Sectors.

To the point, you're not hurting ANYONE when you contribute. Once somebody has contributed 50% of the KPs in a level, they're maxed out on their awards, so additional contributions would simply dilute their profits or, more precisely, their periodic Return on Investment (ROI).

• 1st place gets 1/2 of the awarded KPs, rounded up to modulo 5
• 2nd place gets 1/4 of the award KPs, rounded up to modulo 5
• 3rd place gets 1/8 of the awarded KPs, rounded up to modulo 5
• 4th place gets 1/16 of the awarded KPs, rounded up to modulo 5, if there are any left
• 5th place gets 1/32 of the awarded KPs, rounded up to modulo 5, but there are rarely any left.

The reality is that you're HELPING somebody shake loose their awards package, if you're 2nd through 4th place

 

[Deleted User - 107391]

If you take a peek at https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/knowledge-point-clubs-an-analysis.1136/#post-7197, you'll be pleased to fine that the spreadsheet based KP Club, that we've developed in FoE over than past 2 years, nicely addresses your concerns.

• As folks contribute to a KP Club building, they accumulate KP Points.
  
• When they have enough points to cover their OWN AW, then we jump on it an level it within a few days.
• We use a profit sharing plan, so everybody gets the same % return on their investment.
• Rune Shards are distributed n per n level, to the top five winners. So once an AW reaches level 5 everybody will get at least one Rune Shard.
• Award Rune Shards are specific to THAT AW, so if you're focusing your KP contributions on Mountain Halls, with average luck you'll be able to open your own MH with as few as 9 level 6+ awards, 18 level 1-5 awards, minus any Rune Shards that you happen to have from Sectors.

To the point, you're not hurting ANYONE when you contribute. Once somebody has contributed 50% of the KPs in a level, they're maxed out on their awards, so additional contributions would simply dilute their profits or, more precisely, their periodic Return on Investment (ROI).

• 1st place gets 1/2 of the awarded KPs, rounded up to modulo 5
• 2nd place gets 1/4 of the award KPs, rounded up to modulo 5
• 3rd place gets 1/8 of the awarded KPs, rounded up to modulo 5
• 4th place gets 1/16 of the awarded KPs, rounded up to modulo 5, if there are any left
• 5th place gets 1/32 of the awarded KPs, rounded up to modulo 5, but there are rarely any left.

The reality is that you're HELPING somebody shake loose their awards package, if you're 2nd through 4th place

Still all as clear as mud. I have AW, yet you may as well be speaking Greek. If there is a way to help other get them, I'd certainly be willing to do that, but this just makes no sense to me at all.

 

[DeletedUser43]

I don't play FoE, I don't know anything about that game, I have never seen it. Frankly, I am not the least bit interested in learning about FoE.

Baba, I don't have a clue either. There is no way you can stop anyone else from donating to a club member's wonder, so there is no way to be assured that if you are part of some club that you will get anything. To me, this whole AW thing is all about being a sniper and snatching things from others. I would much prefer to help each other if we could. I hate anything that is exclusionary. If any of this can be explained to me I am happy to help people.

 

[DeletedUser511]

I gave a ton already and im sure when I do finely get a wonder done it will sit there without anyone giving. You are right this isnt right.

 

[DeletedUser626]

What I've noticed about wonders, is that contributing points to your own wonder doesn't give any rewards beyond the upgraded wonders benefits.
The Dwarven (VI) research has many opportunities to get bottlenecked with kp while waiting for granite and copper to build up to complete a research.

A kp club is an opportunity for players that have built ancient wonder/s, those that have completed all available research, and those that are in a kp full bottleneck unable to proceed forward in research to pool their kp equally.

to maximize wonder rewards opportunities, I would suggest that this could be done more efficiently by setting fellowship teams.

 

[DeletedUser61]

I am not the least bit interested in learning about FoE.
Baba, I don't have a clue either.

• Anybody who has researched the Chapter IV Elven/Human Ancient Wonder tech will henceforth get Rune Shards, and they can also contribute Knowledge Points to any Ancient Wonder, even if they have not yet discovered the sponsoring city.
• Other than ease of communication, there's no particular reason to think that a Fellowship association would be advantageous. In fact you'd probably just irritate the Fellowship members who are NOT part of the Knowledge Point Club.
• You're better off with a custom address list.
• The methodology by which the club protects itself is to leave an AW alone UNTIL it's targeted, whereupon 4-5 club members pile on and complete the level within a couple of days.
• If somebody contributes to an Ancient Wonder WITHOUT a prior swap agreement, then the owner incurs NO obligation. Thanks for the free KPs. It would be like playing Basketball 5 against 1. The solo contributor doesn't stand a chance.
• HOWEVER, if somebody indicates that they WANT to opt in to the Knowledge Point Club, then you can start tracking their contributions (incurring an obligation) and, once they've established a pattern of contribution to the club's targeted buildings, you'd credit their Targeting Points with their recent contributions and immediately target one of their smaller levels.
• The nice part about a spreadsheet supported club is that the daily contribution levels can vary over a wide range, so long as your Knowledge Point Contribution average doesn't fall below the 6/24=25% range.

 

[DeletedUser43]

so long as your Knowledge Point Contribution average doesn't fall below the 6/24=25% range.

I followed the other part, what does this mean?

 

[DeletedUser61]

If folks aren't participating, you drop them out of the club.

• The folks who have maxed out their tech tree will be contributing 24 KPs per day PLUS whatever they get by way of awards. Once you've capped your tech tree there's no other way to use up your daily KPs allowance.
• Folks who are mid-tree also need the benefits that some from Ancient Wonders, and diverting 25% of their daily allowance, on average, is a comfortable participation threshold.
• 25% is actually pretty easy to cover when you're occasionally stuck waiting for Copper or whatever, as you won't have to worry about "losing" your accumulating daily allowance.

 

[Deleted User - 107391]

If folks aren't participating, you drop them out of the club.

• The folks who have maxed out their tech tree will be contributing 24 KPs per day PLUS whatever they get by way of awards. Once you've capped your tech tree there's no other way to use up your daily KPs allowance.
• Folks who are mid-tree also need the benefits that some from Ancient Wonders, and diverting 25% of their daily allowance, on average, is a comfortable participation threshold.
• 25% is actually pretty easy to cover when you're occasionally stuck waiting for Copper or whatever, as you won't have to worry about "losing" your accumulating daily allowance.

Sounds good, in theory. I sort of follow, but only sort of. Not well enough to take any action one way or another. Your technical ability and familiarity with things like 'investing' and 'compound interest' keep you from realizing how basic your advice needs to be.

But when you say 'maxed out your tech tree' and 'stuck waiting for Copper', that begins to make sense - that there is another way to use dangling KP. To this point, KP has always been too precious. No, 25% is not 'comfortable, mid-tree.

 

[DeletedUser61]

As we get more and more chapters, Ancient Wonders WILL become mid-game items, we already have them at the 2/3rds point.

Equally to the point, Ancient Wonders may be usefully regarded as JUST another fancy box on the Technology Tree, 2 sideline technologies with 10 boxes, and diverting 25% of your income into those "sideline technologies," which can be used just like you're already using some of the dead end that you currently bypass and save for later, works very well indeed.

We'll soon get to the point where you simply can't survive without a few of the more common Ancient Wonders, and especially so when you're slogging your way through a slow part of the next chapter.

 

[DeletedUser43]

So now there is a gang of thugs that comes along and totally screws someone who has been doing their best to help someone with KP?

I just experienced that on beta.

It felt horrible. I have been helping this one person for a week now and suddenly a bunch of thugs swarmed in and they all dumped so much KP that I am totally SOL. Great. Just great.

I HATE this stupid thing.

I certainly will never become a part of that gang of thugs.

I joined Elvenar because I wanted a peaceful game where you get benefits from helping each, not from screwing each other over. I don't care how much it hurts my game, I won't be that horrible person that does this to anyone.

 

[DeletedUser]

Then you will be in the minority. Exactly the same as GB's on FoE. Pay to win, Inno style.

 

[DeletedUser511]

I wanted a peaceful game as well.

 

[Deleted User - 107391]

So now there is a gang of thugs that comes along and totally screws someone who has been doing their best to help someone with KP?
...
I joined Elvenar because I wanted a peaceful game where you get benefits from helping each, not from screwing each other over. I don't care how much it hurts my game, I won't be that horrible person that does this to anyone.

Oh great. Thanks for the warning.

 

[DeletedUser43]

I am very sorry I said horrible person. I shouldn't have. This is a game and ganging up together to get things from others has been a normal part of game play for a long time now. You aren't a horrible person if you enjoy that. PvP is a very standard model in game play. Win/lose is a standard model. It just isn't the model I wanted to play. I don't enjoy games like that at all. I am sad that my lovely little Elvenar has turned into that.

I want an Ancient Wonder, but every time I try to donate to someone to get the rune shards I need I feel simply awful. I either have to knock someone out of the way or I will get knocked out of the way, or I simply don't have enough KP of my own to be that useful.

It just feels all icky inside.

 

[DeletedUser1161]

I am very sorry I said horrible person. I shouldn't have. This is a game and ganging up together to get things from others has been a normal part of game play for a long time now. You aren't a horrible person if you enjoy that. PvP is a very standard model in game play. Win/lose is a standard model. It just isn't the model I wanted to play. I don't enjoy games like that at all. I am sad that my lovely little Elvenar has turned into that.

I want an Ancient Wonder, but every time I try to donate to someone to get the rune shards I need I feel simply awful. I either have to knock someone out of the way or I will get knocked out of the way, or I simply don't have enough KP of my own to be that useful.

It just feels all icky inside.

Why are you so resistant to collaborative play? You don't have many KP alone, but 10 players working together are earning 1680+ KP a week. Are you confused about how the KP clubs work? It's not PvP - it's players helping each other and getting points and shards for cooperating.

If you insist on trying to work alone then yes, you are setting yourself up for a chaotic, PvP environment. Without communication you can't know whether you are going to knock someone out of the way or whether your KP might suddenly get swamped out by a club. You need to talk to the person to whom you want to donate to make sure they're not in another KP sharing arrangement, and then arrange for an even swap so you can win at each other's AWs.

 

[Deleted User - 107391]

Why are you so resistant to collaborative play? You don't have many KP alone, but 10 players working together are earning 1680+ KP a week. Are you confused about how the KP clubs work? It's not PvP - it's players helping each other and getting points and shards for cooperating.

If you insist on trying to work alone then yes, you are setting yourself up for a chaotic, PvP environment. Without communication you can't know whether you are going to knock someone out of the way or whether your KP might suddenly get swamped out by a club. You need to talk to the person to whom you want to donate to make sure they're not in another KP sharing arrangement, and then arrange for an even swap so you can win at each other's AWs.

It's still all completely unclear to me. I'm not dumb, but this is not being explained in a way that I can understand. Bobbkitty is making the most sense.

 

[DeletedUser1161]

It's still all completely unclear to me. I'm not dumb, but this is not being explained in a way that I can understand. Bobbkitty is making the most sense.

Bobbykitty is creating a very harsh and competitive world for herself. I feel sorry for her.

I'll try to explain. Maybe different words will help.

If you team up with other players, you can basically trade KP by taking turns donating to each others' AW. The club leader sets up a swapping system that everyone agrees on in advance. A club might be simple, like 7 players agree to donate 10 KP to a designated person each day of the week. On Monday you always get 60 KP; the other six days you give away 10 KP a day to a different member. It also might be very complicated with spreadsheets and a point tracking system. Either can work.

As well as the swapping, club members take turns winning. That's what will really make the clubs worth joining and managing. You get to trade points AND get some bonus shards and points from winning when it's your turn. The bonus KP really add up over time too. To control the wins, everyone puts a predetermined number of points into the wonder, and since everyone is working together you know you will win if it's your turn. As Bobby pointed out, a player outside the club can try to steal the win, but if a club is big they can pour a bunch of KP into a wonder over a couple days.

Does that make more sense?

If you're in a club, it's only polite to tell someone donating to your wonder that they should stop. The player who didn't say anything to Bobbykitty and let her donate for days was unethical. You probably want to ask a player before donating to their AW. If the player is in a club or some sort of KP agreement with a lot of other players, they may not be able to return your favor and you probably won't win at their wonder. Better to find a friend or fellow who is looking for a buddy to trade KP so your AW gets some points too.

 

[DeletedUser43]

I feel sorry for her.

Don't.