Ancient Wonders make me sad

[DeletedUser]

I hadn't given it much thought. For now, with my tech tree locked and the threat of KPs going to waste, I have been jumping to the first page on ranking and donating. It's glitchy, though. I have only received two runes, when I should have four. As for hurting others, don't you get a reward even if you give only one KP?

 

[DeletedUser61]

Only the top 5 contributors get awards. The awards are incentives for cooperative endeavors,

• The KPs award pool is distributed 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, rounded up to the nearest 5 KPs, until the pool runs out. The total payout is around 8% of the KPs for that level.
• Rune Shards are distributed one per level, so for level 5 each of the 5 top contributors would receive a Rune Shard.
• For level 6 the top contributor would receive 2 Rune Shards.

If you're not part of a Knowledge Point group, or at least in a private swap, you might as well just level your own Ancient Wonder and forego the awards that you're not likely to get in any case, but at least you won't be wasting your Knowledge Points.

 

[Deleted User - 107391]

Bobbykitty is creating a very harsh and competitive world for herself. I feel sorry for her.

Like she said: "Don't". She has had direct experience which is at odds with what you are saying and with the perceived quality of the game. This is unarguable.

I'll try to explain. Maybe different words will help.

It usually does. So does starting at the beginning. The game itself explains nothing. Perhaps there is some document somewhere which I have failed to notice.

Start here:
Define 'win'. You and katwijk use the term a lot, but I don't know what on earth you mean by it in this context. It appears to have something to do with being the last person to contribute to an AW upgrade.
Awards package?
Rune Shards? Where do they come from and what good are they? We already have our buildings, what else are they good for?
If I have to be the "winner", am I not better off just to contribute to my own upgrade?
(Why on earth would they allow you to jump to players that you have no trade arrangement with?)
Why not stay within your own fellowship (assuming at least 3 players of a high enough level) rather than exposing yourself to a troll?

If you team up with other players, you can basically trade KP by taking turns donating to each others' AW. The club leader sets up a swapping system that everyone agrees on in advance. A club might be simple, like 7 players agree to donate 10 KP to a designated person each day of the week. On Monday you always get 60 KP; the other six days you give away 10 KP a day to a different member. It also might be very complicated with spreadsheets and a point tracking system. Either can work.

Since it takes just as many KP no matter how it's done, why are 7 players better than 3?

As well as the swapping, club members take turns winning. That's what will really make the clubs worth joining and managing. You get to trade points AND get some bonus shards and points from winning when it's your turn. The bonus KP really add up over time too. To control the wins, everyone puts a predetermined number of points into the wonder, and since everyone is working together you know you will win if it's your turn.

This I just don't have the experience to understand at all.

If you're in a club, it's only polite to tell someone donating to your wonder that they should stop. The player who didn't say anything to Bobbykitty and let her donate for days was unethical. You probably want to ask a player before donating to their AW. If the player is in a club or some sort of KP agreement with a lot of other players, they may not be able to return your favor and you probably won't win at their wonder. Better to find a friend or fellow who is looking for a buddy to trade KP so your AW gets some points too.

Bobbykitty's beneficiary may have had no idea that someone else was going to come in and donate. I would assume that to be the case.

 

[DeletedUser627]

Regardless of how well a KP sharing and contributory system is established, at some point a sniper can come in and steal the Rune Shard reward. Anyone with enough coins or goods to buy KP can observe another Wonder and then pounce at the [in]appropriate moment.

The only way to avoid this is to work with a group of players who also can purchase KP, wait until the Wonder has collected some KP, and then go together and apply your KP until each is in an agree upon relative position for rewards. It's complicated, and can't be accomplished according to a pre-established plan.

ALTERNATELY: we could make gentleman's agreements with each other (in the individual worlds), and set up some informal guidelines.

I agree with the thought that this aspect of the game isn't very "Elvenarish". My guess is that, once the game is further developed, AW help will be available only within one's own fellowship? Perhaps the best option would be to give us a toggle button to Allow or Disallow Wonder assistance from individuals outside our own fellowship?

 

[Deleted User - 107391]

Perhaps the best option would be to give us a toggle button to Allow or Disallow Wonder assistance from individuals outside our own fellowship?

I second that!

 

[DeletedUser61]

My guess is that, once the game is further developed, AW help will be available only within one's own fellowship?

This is High School again?? The last thing we need is more structural advantages for competitive fellowships.

 

[DeletedUser627]

This is High School again?? The last thing we need is more structural advantages for competitive fellowships.

This isn't a strategically advantageous viewpoint for you. If I wanted, I could jump in and nab any KP rune shards within your group. You, however, are at a disadvantage since you don't have the production capacity needed to purchase quantities of KP. If you decide that playing competitively is what you want, I'll be happy to organize a raiding party with the sole focus of ensuring you never win another rune shard.

 

[DeletedUser61]

If you decide that playing competitively is what you want

I actually don't care if it's competitive or not. My interest lies with delivering cost effective benefits.

It so happens that "winning" is rarely cost effective, but that's a separate issue.

I'd be more than happy to provide your team with a list of Ancient Wonders that I think deserve attention. Pour in however many Knowledge Points you wish. If your team is foolish enough to contribute Knowledge Points without any expectation of a reciprocal contribution, the more the better.

 

[DeletedUser511]

Forget that I wanted a game that wasnt stressful and dont want people to steal and ruin. wow why is this game going that way?

 

[DeletedUser1161]

It usually does. So does starting at the beginning. The game itself explains nothing. Perhaps there is some document somewhere which I have failed to notice.

Start here:
Define 'win'. You and katwijk use the term a lot, but I don't know what on earth you mean by it in this context. It appears to have something to do with being the last person to contribute to an AW upgrade.
Awards package?
Rune Shards? Where do they come from and what good are they? We already have our buildings, what else are they good for?

You might start with the Wiki page. I think it will help.
https://en.wiki.elvenar.com/index.php?title=Ancient_Wonders

Win: An AW requires hundreds of KP to level. Other players contribute to the AW until it levels. Any player can contribute to any AW on the server at any time. When it finally levels, the 3-5 players who have donated the most KP earn (or "win") an award of KP and possibly a shard. The higher level AW, the more players get an award and the bigger the rewards are. You can donate to your own AW, but you cannot get any rewards even if you have donated the most.

I was using the word "win" more specifically to refer to the top contributor, who gets the biggest award.

Awards Package: The combination of KP and shards the top few contributors get when the AW levels. The awards are distributed with the top contributor getting the biggest package, the second getting the second-biggest, and so forth.

Rune Shards: Inno explains them well enough. https://en.wiki.elvenar.com/index.php?title=Ancient_Wonders#Rune_Shards

If I have to be the "winner", am I not better off just to contribute to my own upgrade?
(Why on earth would they allow you to jump to players that you have no trade arrangement with?)
Why not stay within your own fellowship (assuming at least 3 players of a high enough level) rather than exposing yourself to a troll?

You cannot get an award of KP and shards at your own wonder. You could definitely make agreements within your own fellowship; however, other players can give you KP at any time if they have Ancient Wonders researched and go to your city. Your question as to why Inno would let you jump to any player is an interesting one and best addressed directly to them. The wiki states "Ancient Wonders are a great way to promote players engagement with each other."

What Katwijk is suggesting with the KP clubs is to group together, and make arrangements to donate to AW in turn. You don't donate to your own AW, but if you give 20 KP to the club you'll get 20 in return for your own AW. If players agree, they can also set each other in the the top 3-5 positions to take turns winning awards of KP and shards.

Since it takes just as many KP no matter how it's done, why are 7 players better than 3?

Ideally you want a minimum of six. As many as five helping players can earn awards of shards and KP at your wonder. I used seven in the example because rotating on different days of the week is easy to explain. Katwijk has posted a lot of detail on different ways players might track and share KP to mutual benefit.

Bobbykitty's beneficiary may have had no idea that someone else was going to come in and donate. I would assume that to be the case.

Perhaps they were not paying attention. It seems odd to me that a bunch of players would donate to someone who wasn't reciprocating. Beta servers can be a weird environment though.

 

[DeletedUser627]

It seems odd to me that a bunch of players would donate to someone who wasn't reciprocating. Beta servers can be a weird environment though.

This is one of those examples where the game changes a bit as you move further along. While the forum here can often be combative - especially when a player tries to promote concepts which benefit his own game whilst sabotaging others - actual play tends toward the collegial.

Among the most developed cities in arendyll, where one might expect to see the most competition, players are helping one another without regard for exchanges or tit-for-tat reciprocity. The game attracts cool people who like to see the game and its players progress. Also - and here's where large cities are beneficial - it's relatively easy for us to do so. We're either at or near the end of Dwarven levels, so we're putting our KP to use.

It's correct that everyone is looking to collect rune shards, so as the game progresses and demand increases, so will the competition to gain the needed shards. In the short run, I think we can all say we're glad the developers gave us something to do with our KP. In the long run, we'll need a mechanism to keep this process within the non-PvP spirit of Elvena

 

[DeletedUser43]

I'd be more than happy to provide your team with a list of Ancient Wonders that I think deserve attention. Pour in however many Knowledge Points you wish.

You do realize that Bobbi is 100% correct and you could so easily be crushed. See, this is exactly why I don't like the Wonders. We are all talking about sniping things from each other, helping as being a chump thing to do, and figuring out ways that only one group will benefit while others suffer (talk about being back in high school!)

So now we are going to be at war with each other?

How sad is all this?

This is High School again?? The last thing we need is more structural advantages for competitive fellowships.

The Wonders set up exactly this situation just as they are. The top fellowships, by definition, have the players that produce the most numbers of goods. KP can be purchased with goods. Therefore, the top fellowships can get the most KP the fastest. So far, the top fellowships have been nothing but a boon for everyone on the server. We produce the most goods and we make favorable trades that help everyone on the whole server. (Not all my incredibly favorable trades are picked up by my fellowship, many are taken by people in my neighborhood...as I want it to be. I want to trade as favorably as I can with everyone, since all of Elvenar is my family.) As those top people finish the tech tree first, they will discover which wonders are the best (mountain halls) and everyone will be in a rush to get those rune shards from sniping. As Kat says over and over, why donate KP for free? No. All the top people have to do is get a few of their fellows together and bam! Kat's whole club thing goes up in smoke.

Just because I don't like to fight doesn't mean I can't figure out effective fighting strategy. Do not confuse love of love for weakness.

 

[DeletedUser61]

All the top people have to do is get a few of their fellows together and bam! Kat's whole club thing goes up in smoke.

You're missing a fundamental concept. The folks in the KP Club have agreed to contribute to EACH OTHER'S Ancient Wonders. It's just a fancy swap agreement.

If some outside group "snipes" KP Awards, with no expectation of reimbursement in kind, then 91% (100/110) of their contributions are FREE to the club members, and who will simply say Thanks for the Fish, and move on to the next level or the next Ancient Wonder.

You're trying to turn Ancient Wonder Awards into some sort of conflict, and they simply aren't. The KP and Rune Shard Awards are simply an incentive that encourages cooperative endeavors, rather that soloing your own Ancient Wonders. Ancient Wonders are nothing more, nor less, than an elaborate sideline chain in your Tech Tree, that currently extends for 10 levels, and the KPs can be contributed by anybody.

 

[DeletedUser43]

If some outside group "snipes" KP Awards, with no expectation of reimbursement in kind, then 91% (100/110) of their contributions are FREE to the club members, and who will simply say Thanks for the Fish, and move on to the next level or the next Ancient Wonder.

So, now donating to another player's wonder makes you a chump, a fool, a scab, a fish? Exactly my point of why I don't like them. You are the one who says that the outside person donating to a wonder is actually harming themselves and giving things to the club members and then in the same breath you say this whole thing isn't about conflict?



Moreover, it takes hundreds of KP to get a shard. 7 people aren't going to be able to walk in together, donate 50 KP each at one time and then collect all the rewards. You can't accumulate that many KP at one time very often. Which means, either you all have to sit and wait for others to be suckers and donate first, and then snipe at exactly the right time, or your club is meaningless. YOU will be the suckers, the fish, the fools, who donate all at the same time, but don't have enough KP to get the reward or leave yourselves vulnerable.

Ok...so you say, yes, we will have a club of 35 members who will all be on at exactly the same time, and all of us will waltz in and donate 10 KP a piece. I guess so, but good luck getting 35 people to all do anything at exactly the same time.

 

[DeletedUser511]

Yeah it seem they need to put some option to this someday.

PS..Bobbykitty start convo with me I cant with you.

 

[DeletedUser61]

So, now donating to another player's wonder makes you a chump, a fool, a scab, a fish?

You can characterize unsolicited contributions however you wish.

• If you contribute at least 1/2, you're guaranteed 1st place
• If you contribute at least 1/3rd, you're guaranteed at least 2nd place
• If you contribute at least 1/4th, you're guaranteed at least 3rd place
• etc

The reason our spreadsheet supported club works so well is that when we DO target a particular building, 5 or more club members pile on and level it within a couple of days. It then stays at zero until the ower covers enough points for their next turn.

If an outside is actually "trying" to interfere, then we'll just switch horses and let their contributed points rot unless they finish off the ENTIRE level by themselves, OR we'll evenly split our contributions, per the above chart, and capture as many of the top slots as we can.

In practice, the more likely scenario is that we will regard the contributions as a very good idea, whereupon we'll recruit the outsider into our KP Club, credit their account with their relevant contributions, and immediately target one of their smaller Ancient Wonder levels.

In FoE, outsider contributions are actually where we find most of our new guild members.

 

[DeletedUser511]

LOL my first wonder that would have been over 85 KPs for half. On my wonder my fellowship was playing with each other trying to get first and then someone came in and laid down 70 kps to steal first. Im fine with it being the one that finished my wonder but it dose seem wrong and underhanded.

 

[DeletedUser43]

5 or more club members pile on and level it within a couple of days.

A couple of days? Then as soon as players figure out how to get runes, you will get sniped always. You will be the ones contributing and getting nothing. The players who want those runes will just watch you all contribute and then they will save up fights and goods to buy 30 or 40 KP at once and just waltz in and take the runes away from you. Sure, that one player won't be able to get a rune from you each time, but there are a lot of players and the valuable runes (the mountain halls) are scarce and hard as heck to get....unless you spend a fortune and shortly players will be focused on how to get those runes.

You can't take the top slots unless you contribute the most.

Let's use numbers to make it easy:

For a level 2 rune you need 250 Kp. The top 3 players get the rune reward. So, your five club members go in and donate KP and you give 10 Kp each...that is 50....then you give another 10 each...so now you are up to 100 KP total (20 each) then you give 10 more each and you are up to 30 KP each and the player has 150 Kp towards that wonder....all of this has taken you days.

So now, three players come in and donate 33.3 KP each all at once. That is another 100 KP added to the 150 KP your team already donated for a total of 250 KP and the upgrade is finished and your team is sunk. In two seconds, your team fell to 4th and 5th and 6th place and they all get nothing. You keep speaking as if they keep some kind of spreadsheet that will help them. All that will do is help them see more clearly how they got nothing from the club. You can't stop that kind of sniping. Sure, one team member will get their wonder upgraded faster, but your whole team loses out on all the runes you need in order to build a wonder in the first place.

You can't be so obtuse as to not understand this is a conflict model.

then we'll just switch horses and let their contributed points rot unless they finish off the ENTIRE level by themselves

You use terms like ROT, and FISH, etc etc. Why should anything in Elvenar be about trying to let others rot or treating them like suckers? With every post, you make my point about how the Wonders is a win lose model as opposed to the win win game we heretofore enjoyed. (and btw, you act as if finishing off the entire level will be unusual....where actually, any player who figures this out soon, will of course find a way to finish off an entire level).

 

[DeletedUser61]

so now you are up to 100 KP total (20 each) then you give 10 more each and you are up to 30 KP each and the player has 150 Kp towards that wonder....all of this has taken you days.

So now, three players come in and donate 33.3 KP each all at once.

I think the Forge Point ROTATION clubs are entirely stupid, partly for the tactical reasons that you mentioned, but mostly because somebody is always flaking out or jumping ahead of the group "just a little bit" but every damn time.

The folks in the spreadsheet base KP club will have at least as much horsepower as you have, and they will PILE ON and level one targeted AW at a time, as rapidly as possible, and THEN they will move on to the next targeted AW Level. Outsiders simply can't keep up with the pace, and we can always simply skip the AW that they're trying to preempt, and level one of the owner's other AWs instead.

In our FoE guild we had a couple of folk who thought that they could beat the system, using the techniques that you've indicated. They are now sadder and wiser.

 

[DeletedUser43]

In our FoE guild

You know, when I play tennis, I like to....oh wait....that's right...we are talking about Elvenar here not some other game.

Or should I just keep posting ad nauseum what I do when I play anything other than Elvenar?