[Archived 02/2020] News from Beta

[Deleted User - 3932582]

Beta is updating armouries and residences (orc chapter)

Nice, residences change will help with upgrading into non-trivial shape change. I remember that after initial upgrades in Orcs (barracks, primarily) I ultimately sold all the excess residencies, went down to negative -5.5K pop, and then slowly upgraded the remaining residences with this extra space. Took more than a week to get back into positive pop territory...

 

[SoggyShorts]

I think the only people who think tech-lock is bad is those who don't want/feel-they-have-room-for AWs in their city, or don't understand their usefulness.

Wonders are good, but I think for some players sitting and leveling them doesn't feel like progress, and is, therefore, less rewarding.
Unlocking new building upgrades, another guest race, or a new military unit vs going from level 7 to 8 in your Golden Abyss. Wooo.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

Wonders are good, but I think for some players sitting and leveling them doesn't feel like progress, and is, therefore, less rewarding.
Unlocking new building upgrades, another guest race, or a new military unit vs going from level 7 to 8 in your Golden Abyss. Wooo.

That's also a good point. I think a lot of people don't realize how expensive upgrades to AWs are - comparing to tech tree progress.

To make a similar, but more concrete example: most chapters require about 2,000 KPs to complete all research. This means that I can complete the whole new chapter (and get all the new goodies), or, you know, I can upgrade my L6 Martial Monastery about 3.5 levels. So you can't even hit L10 with full chapter KP amount. L9 MM vs L6 MM is 111.25% vs 109% health for your units. A whopping 2.25% health increase, that's it (OK, some extra culture as well).

Surely, there are cheaper AWs, and you can spread wide rather than tall, but you get the idea.

 

[Ashrem]

To make a similar, but more concrete example: most chapters require about 2,000 KPs to complete all research. This means that I can complete the whole new chapter (and get all the new goodies), or, you know, I can upgrade my L6 Martial Monastery about 3.5 levels.

If you're talking full advantage of tournaments, and KP exchanges, That's not a good comparison. You should be getting 30-50 AW-kp a week from tournaments. And probably another 100 or 200 from completing an event during that time. And if you've spent 2000 on KP trades, another 200+ in AW-Chest-prizes. If we estimate 10+ weeks to a level vs 10 weeks on AW focus, you should have gotten close to an extra 500kp that can only be spent on wonders.

 

[SoggyShorts]

. If we estimate 10+ weeks to a level vs 10 weeks on AW focus, you should have gotten close to an extra 500kp that can only be spent on wonders.

So then what is the accurate comparison?

An entire chapter plus 1-2 MM levels vs 5 MM levels? 6?

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

If you're talking full advantage of tournaments, and KP exchanges, That's not a good comparison. You should be getting 30-50 AW-kp a week from tournaments. And probably another 100 or 200 from completing an event during that time. And if you've spent 2000 on KP trades, another 200+ in AW-Chest-prizes. If we estimate 10+ weeks to a level vs 10 weeks on AW focus, you should have gotten close to an extra 500kp that can only be spent on wonders.

I am not sure I follow how tournament rewards are relevant in this case. I'll get the same rewards no matter if I put pure KPs in research or into AWs. I am getting close to 140 each of pure KP and AW KP from tournaments every week. AW KPs obviously go into AWs, pure KPs go into research. It is part of 2000KP that we're talking about here.

Using KP swaps we can amplify effect of KPs dropped into AWs. So you're right, if we put 2K KPs into AWs via swaps, we can effectively deploy 2.2K or something like that. We can reach that L10 instead of L9 after all

Also not sure where do I get 100-200 KPs a week from events. Would like to know

 

[SoggyShorts]

Also not sure where do I get 100-200 KPs a week from events. Would like to know

I believe he meant in 10 weeks which sounds about right since there is a major event 4-5x a year.

 

[Ashrem]

I am not sure I follow how tournament rewards are relevant in this case.

The rewards in the shared fellowship chests are instants that can not be used in research.

Also not sure where do I get 100-200 KPs a week from events. Would like to know

As Soggy mentioned. There should be at least one major event per chapter, and Unless you are particularly finicky about exactly which random chests you select during an event, some of the prizes will be AW instants.

So then what is the accurate comparison?

I have no idea. Just pointing out some slack in the original math.

At the end of the day, it's entirely dependent on whether you are leveling 1 wonder from 10 to 15 or 1 from 5 to 10 or 15 from 1 to 2. Any solutions are applicable to a limited subset of players.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

I have no idea. Just pointing out some slack in the original math.

I think I see what you are trying to say. But my math is solid (well, at least in this particular case )

When evaluating choices, we need to look at differences in outcomes. It doesn't matter if the same improvements happen in both cases, that's a wash. So I play tournaments and do events regardless of where pure KPs will go - into research or into AWs. In both cases a whole bunch of AWs will be leveled up. So for the sake of the argument let's say that we dump all AW KPs into AWs other than the aforementioned Martial Monastery (this assumption doesn't make a difference in the end, but it makes it easier to illustrate). So here are outcomes of our choice after 1 month or so:

Focus on AW leveling:
- Still in the same chapter N
- A whole bunch of AWs other than MM is leveled with AW KPs from tournaments and events
- MM goes from L6 to L10 (2,000 pure KPs dumped into MM via swapping)

Focus on research:
- Move to the next chapter N+1 (2,000 pure KPs dumped into research)
- A whole bunch of AWs other than MM is leveled with AW KPs from tournaments and events
- MM stays at L6

Note, than red highlights are exactly the same. As such, they don't influence our decision. So what's left is a choice between extra 4 levels on MM vs +1 chapter. Now, different people may attribute different values to both of these outcomes, hence would evaluate the original decision differently. And you obviously can pick a different AW instead of MM, but I would find it hard to compare benefit of 4-5 extra AW levels to a whole chapter increase.

 

[Ashrem]

I
Focus on AW leveling:
- Still in the same chapter N
- A whole bunch of AWs other than MM is leveled with AW KPs from tournaments and events
- MM goes from L6 to L10 (2,000 pure KPs dumped into MM via swapping)

Focus on research:
- Move to the next chapter N+1 (2,000 pure KPs dumped into research)
- A whole bunch of AWs other than MM is leveled with AW KPs from tournaments and events
- MM stays at L6

The slack is that scenario one assumes no extra instant-KP coming in from other people's AWs as you spend that 2,000 "pure" kp. I didn't mean to imply that the entire 500+ is all slack, but there is some slack. Probably 150-200kp on average. If I'm the only one dumping 2000, I'm probably getting the top chest from most of my trading-partners' AW. If there are several of us doing it, I won't always be first, but there will be more chests altogether.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

The slack is that scenario one assumes no extra instant-KP coming in from other people's AWs as you spend that 2,000 "pure" kp. I didn't mean to imply that the entire 500+ is all slack, but there is some slack. Probably 150-200kp on average. If I'm the only one dumping 2000, I'm probably getting the top chest from most of my trading-partners' AW. If there are several of us doing it, I won't always be first, but there will be more chests altogether.

That is true, and I mentioned that in my previous post. So originally I said that 2,000KP won't be quite enough to reach L10 for MM (and so I attached L9 to the outcome), but after you mentioned KP swaps I adjusted effective KPs upwards to about 2,200 KP when deployed in AW. With that, I think you can get to L10 in this particular case. This changed the health boost of the troops by 0.75%

 

[Ashrem]

This changed the health boost of the troops by 0.75%

Next, if you could factor in the affect on future progress (when I'm in the mood to progress) of the extra divine seeds I get every time I hit my trader. Also, the convenience of getting the best choice off dailies in a large event of my 15 expansion workshop/T1 ghetto and sitting on several techs that are full of KP and just waiting to activate as called for. (currently on step 96 of the event, without spending any diamonds).

 

[Pheryll]

Beta is updating armouries and residences (orc chapter)

Yep, and the training size is not being addressed. I warned people long ago in the construct thread that with the Shrooms wonder, the new armories will only decrease your training size, and that it would be better to level them only up to 31 at this point. When I made those comments, the Beta forum was only addressing the lack of orc production, and the OP of that thread originally said the training size was fine. Guess the Elvenar team used the premature Beta analysis from back then.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

Next, if you could factor in the affect on future progress (when I'm in the mood to progress) of the extra divine seeds I get every time I hit my trader. Also, the convenience of getting the best choice off dailies in a large event of my 15 expansion workshop/T1 ghetto and sitting on several techs that are full of KP and just waiting to activate as called for. (currently on step 96 of the event, without spending any diamonds).

Effect on seeds is easy. So let's say MH at L30, 6 collections a day - 4 extra levels of AW will give you 4*6*30 = 720 extra seeds per day. That is indeed an extra benefit in Halflings and beyond. Having said that, that's less than a single lowest level seed-producing Golden Palace (3x2) that you can win for free tomorrow (820 seeds/day in Halflings). No 2K KP commitment is required.

Your rapid progress in the event is a lot more due to the fact that you're able to spare 15 expansions for the L1 ghetto. Research quests always have alternatives - and with dumping KPs in research you're unlocking new research at about 1 a day pace. Plus there are always time boosters for alternatives. This does not have any impact on event progress unless you want to get multiple of something in the first 2-3 days. I remember the last big event I was able to allocate 2 expansion to the event (and that included non-boosted T1s back then), and finished it in 4 or 5 days. I never even used research for quests.

So to add these up, the trade off is between an extra chapter progress vs 3% extra troops health + 700-800 extra seeds per day (in Halflings and beyond) + potential to be slilghtly faster in the events to pick up more early dailies (but this mostly requires a lot of extra space and planning, so I'd say it's a very slim differential).

Again, my point is not that AW focus is a bad choice - it is a choice, and I just want to make it clear what are the consequences of making this choice. Everyone can attribute different value to these outcomes. For me, I don't care about miniscule extra health nor potential event speedup, but I do want more seeds. Just for me, getting an extra special building is a way better use of available resources to accomplish that.

 

[Ashrem]

Your rapid progress in the event is a lot more due to the fact that you're able to spare 15 expansions for the L1 ghetto.

Well, yes, but the only reason I have those expansions is because I decided to pause here to level my AWs. Otherwise they would be full of buildings for the next chapter.

 

[kctanzen]

MinMax --

How does the need for guest race goods, which have a fairly significant lead time / storage capacity in my city get handled in your KP spending decisions?
Is the assumption that portal profits will be used as needed for those if short and the tech is full of KP?

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

MinMax --

How does the need for guest race goods, which have a fairly significant lead time / storage capacity in my city get handled in your KP spending decisions?
Is the assumption that portal profits will be used as needed for those if short and the tech is full of KP?

Well, the idea is to design the build in such a way that you don't get short. This is not always possible Still, research tree up and including Woodelves is setup in such a way that you don't need settlement goods until later in the chapter, so for the most part it doesn't interfere with your lead time to production setup.

There are a few exceptions here and there - primary example would be Orcs. There is a trap there - it may seem that right after unlocking Rally Point you need settlement goods to move forward. Which is technically true This is pretty early. But trying to get some productions from your very early settlement is shooting yourself in the foot long term there. Instead, if you take a look at City Expansion 33 tech (which needs 450 shrooms of wisdom) and is available at the same time as Rally Points, you may notice that 3 subsequent techs after that one do not require any settlement goods. This means that if you pass that gate (yep, with PPs), you unlock 57+50+60+68=235 KP sink. If you play this right, you may get up to a week extra time, during which you go bananas building and upgrading your settlement. Depending on the level of your portal, this is only 25%-75% worth of PPs. This was more than enough time for me to avoid tech lock in the Orcs completely, and even finish production couple of days early (that's with ~60KP/day intake on average)

Another case would be S&D chapter. I haven't done a full analysis yet, but it seems that this is a first chapter that is designed for tech lock (probably to force AW upgrades before Halflings). Unlike Orcs, there it's not a question of how much space you can afford to deploy (max structure is fixed). You're hard capped on the number of apprentices that is generated, and this is capped pretty low. It seems to me that unless your KP accumulation is extremely low (no tournaments / special buildings etc), you will be tech locked there for quite some time. Unless you deploy a ton of PPs - I believe we're talking 200-400% worth of PP. Which is doable, but there is really no other way around that in this case. If my preliminary calculations are correct

 

[Kekune]

Yep, and the training size is not being addressed. I warned people long ago in the construct thread that with the Shrooms wonder, the new armories will only decrease your training size, and that it would be better to level them only up to 31 at this point.

Could you explain this further, please? Why would training size go down with the shrooms wonder and upgraded armories?

 

[SoggyShorts]

Could you explain this further, please? Why would training size go down with the shrooms wonder and upgraded armories?

Level 32&33 armories require more pop&culture&space than level 31. per square.
Level 32&33 armories also give fewer levels per square so the SSS is less effective.

 

[Kekune]

per square

Ahh, thank you. I read it to mean an absolute decrease.