Deleted User - 3932582
Guest
Yep, here is the tech tree for those interested:
As a side note, sentient costs look pretty insane - hundreds of thousands per research. E.g. Residence upgrade needs 350K of velvet + guest race goods.
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Your Elvenar Team
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As a side note, sentient costs look pretty insane - hundreds of thousands per research. E.g. Residence upgrade needs 350K of velvet + guest race goods.
Enevhar Aldarion
Oh Wise One
So, for all of us live server players at the end of chapter 14, if Inno keeps to their current release pattern, we will get chapter 15 in two weeks? Is everyone ready? 
qaccy
Well-Known Member
Nope, Mortars are unusable piles of steaming rodent gak...
I can win most encounters vs. archers & mages with my axe-loons, except for those instances where I'm 1000% terrain screwed. (ie: even doggies w/a 100% HP boost + phoenix is still an auto loss because it'll take 3 turns to get anywhere, while everyone has to walk in single file)
On the other hand, I have LOST OUTRIGHT battles vs. all LI+LR with Mortars!!!
And the terrain was even in my favour!
MORTARS JUST PLAIN SUCK
Plus, we get the ability to auto-produce 'Zerkers by just finishing Ch.6, as the Dwarven Bulwark is basically a 'must have' AW for it's massive squad size boost. Meanwhile, mortars get nothing from AW's until finishing up Halflings - a whopping 5 further chapters into the game...
I currently have so many 'Zerkers just sitting around that I don't even care about throwing them in the dreaded Spire of Misery - I seriously can't kill them off fast enough at this point!
I suppose it comes down to boosts, as I mentioned. The fire phoenix in particular really pushed things to the next level for mortars, but it's worth reiterating that mortars seem to perform better against heavy melee than they do against light melee, and it's also worth noting that mortars start dropping quickly once they start getting attacked. This is why increasing their damage is important - it should go without saying, but they REALLY have to kill as much as possible before the enemies reach them. This is also why boosts favor ranged units disproportionately over melee units, because boosts increase a ranged unit's weaknesses: their damage and their health. However, there are no boosts for a unit's attack range nor their movement abilities, and this is why melee (both light and heavy) fall short in comparison to the ranged units in the long run. That is to say, I lose more melee units while fighting in the crystal, silk, and magic dust tournaments (scrolls is so ridiculous that I generally don't bother with that one at all), than I do ranged units/mages fighting in the others.
Mykan
Oh Wise One
I missed that, will have to look at them. I would struggle to reach that with 1 factory and my decay rate is only 4%. Those costs will either force cross tier trades or more sentient factories in towns. But more sentient factories in towns goes against the new event approach. I don't mind dropping T1's for T4 but it would be nice if their strategies were consistent in approach.
It could be an underhanded approach to make teleport spells more valuable and therefore spire prizes seem better to tempt people to be willing to endure the spire.
The Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
At the rate they're going, I wish Inno would just go ahead and pre-build all our cities for us, since they obviously hate any kind of individuality or alternate ways of playing beyond their 'MY WAY ONLY!' bs.
Mykan
Oh Wise One
I don't agree and actually just posted on another thread in relation to this. They definitely have a path of least resistance, no doubt about it. But personally that is a pretty wide path with lots of room for individuality, including "off the path" options. Happy to discuss further but probably best in a thread of its own and not beta spoilers.
I did get the sense from the announcement in beta about the new race that they have intentionally tried to make it harder then prior races, proof will be in the pudding. The other thing to consider is that the challenges of a new race for an end-tech character is quite different to that of a person a chapter or more behind. Generally I would think it is harder for those further back as end-tech players are likely to have stashes of PP spells and a big stock pile of mana, seeds, orcs, sentient goods all from just sitting around and waiting. Those further back unless they take gaps between chapters have much smaller stockpiles, on the plus side though they probably kept more space in their town as it is one race after another for them.
Deleted User - 3932582
Guest
Cynicism is warranted IMO. The way I see it, we're moving towards 3 distinct modes of operation in later game, with little overlap:
End game - no chapters, no events:
- You want to run peak efficiency in troops and mostly regular goods production for tournaments and some Spire. This means leaning heavily on event buildings, sets etc - e.g. Mermaid Palace for T1 production, Jesters for T3 etc, potentially low/underdeveloped workshops, culture/pop hybrids vs residences etc. T1/T2/T3 manus only supplement more efficient production. Minimum of sentient production - you only need some if you want to negotiate in the Spire. Farming of Vallorian Valor/GotOS/Wishing Wells/Trading Outposts/other expiring buildings.
Regular gameplay - doing chapter, no event (I am projecting here from Chapter 15):
- You need massive sentient production, so you need to get more T4/T5/T6 producers. You may not need regular T1/T2/T3 much if you played it right and stocked up on these before (unlimited stockpiles). You also need massive space for settlements. This means farms are out. Still don't need leveled workshops / residences - unless chapter requires these (a-la Amuni, but with level requirements)
Event gameplay - still not very compatible with regular chapter gameplay
Your massive sentients capacity is entirely useless here. Now you need leveled T1s and leveled workshops at the very least. This means potentially significant space requirements for extra pop/culture (e.g. not very compatible with farming) etc
As you can see, all 3 look very different. The only way to transition between these 3 modes with minimal losses would be with teleports - unless you just want to run inefficient setup in all 3 (or at least 2) modes. This also feels like it would require a lot of teleports.
Well, at least for the new chapter gameplay in the endgame I'd probably just drop and rebuild T4/T5/T6 as needed given that this is pretty infrequent. Plus you can play these on your own time. Events happen much more often, and run in a particular window.
Enevhar Aldarion
Oh Wise One
Your list does not include my way to play, which is doing chapter AND event at the same time. I have never paused my progress for an event and several times I finished one chapter and moved into the next during an event, ending up with set buildings, or the old-style grand prize buildings, belonging to two different chapters.
Deleted User - 3932582
Guest
Neither have I - that does not make it efficient for both. It was the case before, it is still the case now.
Previously, you would want to run a big L1 farm for events - which you generally couldn't do with massive guest race settlement. So you had to work with less than you could have gone for if not doing guest race. It wasn't that big of a deal when quest list was limited and fixed, as in all likelihood it was still quite doable to completion even in the middle of the chapter.
Endless quests changed that, and it is quite obvious that with significant space tied into settlements, you would get less from the event comparing to a case where you can dedicate this space to event - whether this is an L1 farm, or leveled T1/WS + supporting pop/culture. So can you do both? Sure, but you will have to make a choice as to what to focus on, as set ups needed are quite different.
SunsetDanar
Well-Known Member
350K Velvet to upgrade one Residence? That seems so profoundly unrealistic that I'll suggest that it's likely an error.
Ashrem
Oh Wise One
It's not to upgrade the residence. It's to unlock the technology to upgrade all your residences.
SunsetDanar
Well-Known Member
I misunderstood, thanks for the clarification.
qaccy
Well-Known Member
@SunsetDanar That's not the only high-cost research, either. Looking over the tech tree, these are the highest individual research costs I saw, along with the total needed for the chapter:
EDIT: I suppose I should look at more than just research costs, huh? I forgot to consider that the settlement buildings also require goods to build, and it appears they need goods to produce as well. This will likely mean at least two boosted manufactories of each tier will be necessary to cover all your costs, which is going to be a large hurdle to overcome for many players.
- S1: 105k (one of the settlement building techs), 555k total
- S2: 355k (armory tech), 1.575 million total
- S3: 435k (expansion), 5.875 million total
EDIT: I suppose I should look at more than just research costs, huh? I forgot to consider that the settlement buildings also require goods to build, and it appears they need goods to produce as well. This will likely mean at least two boosted manufactories of each tier will be necessary to cover all your costs, which is going to be a large hurdle to overcome for many players.
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Deleted User - 312108
Guest
@Alistaire 8pm est I believe. I am CST and typically see it at 7pm - note, there is a timer that shows you when it will change. I currently have Branchwood of Nuts.
Alistaire
Well-Known Member
On beta? That's today's on live.
Deleted User - 312108
Guest
@Alistaire I misunderstood, let me double check my beta. I have Hazeltown on beta for another 8 hours.
Alistaire
Well-Known Member
K, got a bet going on whether or not there'll be a 2nd wishing well day. I'm cynical at this point and think the well being on 1st day is a sign they're pushing more to limit them and being sneaky about it. But knowing it's around 8pm est updates that'll save me a bunch of checking, thanks!
Ashrem
Oh Wise One
Gems is a privately run site which will update when the people who run it have time. It will not be on a set clock.
Enevhar Aldarion
Oh Wise One
Elvengems gets updated when the person who does the updates gets around to it. I have seen the daily prize list not get updated for a couple of days at a time before. Remember that is a fan site and the person/people maintaining it get busy with real life sometimes.
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