Developers Working on Scroll Solution

[SoggyShorts]

That jump is pretty big , thats a 34% uptick?

50% the way I look at it:
The cost for 36,000 silk is 36,000 scrolls, then after you click it the cost goes up by 50% every time.

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

50% the way I look at it:
The cost for 36,000 silk is 36,000 scrolls, then after you click it the cost goes up by 50% every time.

your right 36K is 66.66% of 54K so a 50% uptick indeed.
way to much lol

 

[Iyapo1]

your right 36K is 66.66% of 54K so a 50% uptick indeed.
way to much lol

True but a scroll boosted player trading at 2:1 for crystal or silk on the market could make three Wholesaler trades and still be better off.

 

[Elf Emma]

Or--those of you who are boosted in scrolls could build a Blooming Trader and level it. I can't use the wholesaler to trade in the 1.5+ million scrolls I have from accepting trades for my silk. But a scroll boosted player can. I am currently working with a member in my FS who is boosted in scrolls and has a Blooming Trader to switch out some of my scrolls for crystal. This could be a project for a FS--everyone helping the scroll boosted player level up their Blooming Trader so they get more silk or crystal for scrolls from the wholesaler. The Blooming Trader is not a junk AW. It is just highly misunderstood and under utilized.

I have been using the wholesaler for months to get what I need for sentient goods production. The Blooming Trader helps.

 

[Nectar of the Gods]

A potential problem with this is that a properly balanced 25-member fellowship should have 7 or 8 players who are boosted in scrolls. This make me wonder if fellowships are now rejecting join requests from players boosted in scrolls because they need fewer members who make it?

As an AM I would never reject a player boosted in scrolls as long as I had enough silk and crystal in the mix. That player will also have T1 and T3 boosts to consider. There is more to a player than their boosts, too. Do they play tourney well? Do they participate in the Spire? Do they do regular visits and take trades? Is their city growing? Are they willing to be part of a team? So much more to look at than what their T2 boost may be.

Yes, my FS has more than one scroll boosted player. But he has a BTG. Not everyone does. This is an experiment. How successful or unsuccessful it will be remains to be seen. But it is worth a try, right? If it is somewhat successful perhaps other members in the FS will be willing to add BTGs and work together to clear the scroll avalanche. Any additional T2 besides scrolls is a plus when you are saturated with them and have no outlet in your neighborhood for trading them because the market is glutted. While the devs "work" on a solution I am doing what I can to work to get more crystal into the hands of members that need it. And this seems a good start. Wish me luck?

 

[Sir Squirrel]

I just built the BTG again myself. I had it built before, but got rid of it to add a couple wonders I needed more at the time. It will help a bit, but agree we shouldn't have to try and fix a problem created by the Dev's. I do not have much faith that they will really address the problem though so I guess it falls on us to try and fix this mess.
It will take a while to trade off this many scrolls and I have not had a scroll manufactory in my city in over a year!

 

[Alistaire]

Here's a thought: just give players the option to choose for spire buildings (and maybe other event stuff). Use the same coding that allows someone to switch the trader from seeds to unurium, then players who want other t2 make what they want, market will correct itself based on people making the highest demand, people who want to keep making scrolls retain that option, everyone's happy which affects Inno's numbers, everyone wins.

 

[qaccy]

If you made shoes and went to trade them for pants, but everyone already had more shoes then they need and keep making more than they need, there isn't a market for your shoes and you have to run around without pants. Even if you make more and more shoes and offer 8 pair of shoes for one pair of pants, no one needs them. The shoe market crashes and you need to make something else or starve. That's the way a market works in RL. This isn't a world where you can change your job. Sure, you can invent 'work arounds', but in the end they cause their own problems and still leaves the scroll boosted at a disadvantage.

I'm replying late to this post, but I wanted to comment that it's a shame that you stopped reading my post after the second sentence. Could have at least read the whole thing before you wrote yours up!

 

[Fayeanne]

Scrolls might be worth less on paper than the other T2 goods, but if they're still being traded in quantities that match the value of the goods being received, seems fine to me. And that's the kicker: players still have to be able to use their scrolls. If that's not happening, that's the issue I can see needing to be fixed.

I think this is missing some of the key points. First, it's a hardship placed exclusively on people who happen to be boosted in Scrolls through no fault of their own. And it's not something those players can choose or change. Second, the issue is not necessarily getting rid of the Scrolls--the issue is obtaining Crystal and Silk. The entire point of trading is to get Crystal and Silk. If we don't trade Scrolls for them, how are we supposed to obtain these things? And that is why this statement continues to make me scratch my head:

If you want to help "fix" the problem though, and you are, as I am, a scrolls boosted city, cut back on your production.

So if we stop making Scrolls, how are we supposed to obtain Crystal and Silk? The entire point of this discussion is we have to produce twice the T2 as Crystal/Silk players just to break even in trades (assuming those trades even get taken at all). If we cut back, we'll have even less Crystal and Silk, stunting our cities' growth, while the Crystal and Silk players will still be just fine because they will continue to get all the Scrolls they need from their libraries.

Right now the solution appears to be to overproduce Scrolls and burn them in the Wholesaler; since the Wholesaler is an 8:1 ratio, we have to produce 8 times as much of our T2 as other players. Nice handicap, isn't it?

 

[ajqtrz]

I think this is missing some of the key points. First, it's a hardship placed exclusively on people who happen to be boosted in Scrolls through no fault of their own. And it's not something those players can choose or change. Second, the issue is not necessarily getting rid of the Scrolls--the issue is obtaining Crystal and Silk. The entire point of trading is to get Crystal and Silk. If we don't trade Scrolls for them, how are we supposed to obtain these things? And that is why this statement continues to make me scratch my head:

So if we stop making Scrolls, how are we supposed to obtain Crystal and Silk? The entire point of this discussion is we have to produce twice the T2 as Crystal/Silk players just to break even in trades (assuming those trades even get taken at all). If we cut back, we'll have even less Crystal and Silk, stunting our cities' growth, while the Crystal and Silk players will still be just fine because they will continue to get all the Scrolls they need from their libraries.

Right now the solution appears to be to overproduce Scrolls and burn them in the Wholesaler; since the Wholesaler is an 8:1 ratio, we have to produce 8 times as much of our T2 as other players. Nice handicap, isn't it?

As a scrolls boosted player I have no problem with too many scrolls in the market. I've cut back on my production and have no problem getting crystal/silk. I would have to produce more of scrolls if I wanted to exclusively trade them for crystal/silk, but why would I do that if it's a "hardship" to me? I have 6 other goods and some of them are in demand too. If the problem is getting people to trade scrolls for crystal/silk, why restrict what you can trade for crystal/silk? Why not trade steel, or elixer or dust for the crystal/silk. Maybe it's because people are trying to judge other people by treating anyone who does cross tier trades as morally suspect, instead of letting each player determine the fairness of the trade for themselves? Enough said in response to your description of the "problem."

AJ

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

As a scrolls boosted player I have no problem with too many scrolls in the market. I've cut back on my production and have no problem getting crystal/silk. I would have to produce more of scrolls if I wanted to exclusively trade them for crystal/silk, but why would I do that if it's a "hardship" to me? I have 6 other goods and some of them are in demand too. If the problem is getting people to trade scrolls for crystal/silk, why restrict what you can trade for crystal/silk? Why not trade steel, or elixer or dust for the crystal/silk. Maybe it's because people are trying to judge other people by treating anyone who does cross tier trades as morally suspect, instead of letting each player determine the fairness of the trade for themselves? Enough said in response to your description of the "problem."

AJ

Because if all scroll boosted players did that then all markets are %$"^^ up.

You do not prune a trees dead brances when it's sick at the roots. you fix the roots instead.
The fact that workarounds exist to circumvent a critical problem is already a very bad thing.

 

[Crow Last Elf]

--the issue is obtaining Crystal and Silk.

I'm a scroll producer, so I am in the same boat. This part of your post is also the highest priority to monitor in my city. To make the situation worse, when the moonstone library first came out, 3 out of 4 players climbing the Spire in my fs were scroll producers who negotiated up the Spire. Visiting the Trader was a painful experience and drove me to abandon scroll manus and trade steel for scrolls. I'm on Hara, the youngest world, and T1 goods are always in demand in the trader, so offering T1 for T2 has worked so far.

Given the different ways that players build successful cities, I wonder if INNO thinks it has or can give us tools to overcome this handicap? And maybe the fs that work together the best will be more successful at doing so (see the discussion in this thread about fs pitching in to level up and use the BTG). I think encouraging cross trading also helps with the problem, even though it is not popular.

By abandoning my Scrolls manu, I have to buy scrolls as well, which helps my fellow scroll players I hope. Also, there is an understanding in my fs that if silk and crystal producers can overproduce, they are encouraged to do so. By offering T1 for T2, I hope that maybe they have less need for T1 manus. So they are not just stock piling scrolls so that I get enough crystal and silk.

I'm also going to try to rely on the traveling merchant, my Gingerbread Mansion, maybe place part of the Air Traders Set and look at any future T2 producing event buildings to try to obtain the crystal and silk.

I do miss seeing the evolutions of my scroll manu though. And when I visit my Fely trader, where I produce Silk, I have zero anxiety about my trades not being filled. I'm also a smaller city there compared to my neighbours, but the difference in effort and stress is striking.

 

[ajqtrz]

Because if all scroll boosted players did that then all markets are %$"^^ up.

You do not prune a trees dead branches when it's sick at the roots. you fix the roots instead.
The fact that workarounds exist to circumvent a critical problem is already a very bad thing.

I agree. We just don't agree to the root of the problem. I argue it's in the players being a bit naive in being against cross tier trades because that restricts the flow of goods. This increases the supply of scrolls as it's harder to trade them if you restrict that for which you can trade them. This is all based upon the players assuming the devs stated level of "fair" is actually, or should be considered "fair," which means many players are unwilling to adjust to market conditions until they are forced by this type of surplus. The root of the problem is players, not trading surpluses themselves. Those surpluses only reveal the roots of this tree. They are a symptom, not a cause. The workarounds are okay but the solutions offered are only temporary as their will always be fluctuations in supply/demand even if the devs don't interfere with the markets.

AJ

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

As a scrolls boosted player I have no problem with too many scrolls in the market. I've cut back on my production and have no problem getting crystal/silk. I would have to produce more of scrolls if I wanted to exclusively trade them for crystal/silk, but why would I do that if it's a "hardship" to me? I have 6 other goods and some of them are in demand too. If the problem is getting people to trade scrolls for crystal/silk, why restrict what you can trade for crystal/silk? Why not trade steel, or elixir or dust for the crystal/silk. Maybe it's because people are trying to judge other people by treating anyone who does cross tier trades as morally suspect, instead of letting each player determine the fairness of the trade for themselves? Enough said in response to your description of the "problem."

If we were still using the old trade ratios, then this situation could never be worked around with cross-tier trades, but the current ratios for 2-star trades are very fair, even for cross-tier, so people just need to build more of their boosted tier 1 and 3 factories and trade that for crystal and silk instead. And because this can easily be done, I am sure that Inno sees it and thinks there is nothing about scrolls that is so bad that it needs a major fix. If I see players around me offering silk or crystal and asking for tier 1 or 3, I will take the trades, but often they do not last long at all.

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

I agree. We just don't agree to the root of the problem. I argue it's in the players being a bit naive in being against cross tier trades because that restricts the flow of goods. This increases the supply of scrolls as it's harder to trade them if you restrict that for which you can trade them. This is all based upon the players assuming the devs stated level of "fair" is actually, or should be considered "fair," which means many players are unwilling to adjust to market conditions until they are forced by this type of surplus. The root of the problem is players, not trading surpluses themselves. Those surpluses only reveal the roots of this tree. They are a symptom, not a cause. The workarounds are okay but the solutions offered are only temporary as their will always be fluctuations in supply/demand even if the devs don't interfere with the markets.

AJ

You make the wrong assumption the marker is an open market.
In an open market you have all the choices. but we do not have open choices.

We are living more in a planned economy, and you cannot apply open market principles at a planned economy.
Thats telling an apple is the same as a pear as both are fruits.

 

[ajqtrz]

You make the wrong assumption the marker is an open market.
In an open market you have all the choices. but we do not have open choices.

We are living more in a planned economy, and you cannot apply open market principles at a planned economy.
Thats telling an apple is the same as a pear as both are fruits.

I'll post a reply in a new thread. Open vs Closed markets and why ALL markets eventually become open, die, or are replaced by an open one. Don't want this to get off topic as I've been accused of doing that before (and probably have. done so.)

AJ

 

[Yogi Dave]

And that's the kicker: players still have to be able to use their scrolls. If that's not happening, that's the issue I can see needing to be fixed.

I'm replying late to this post, but I wanted to comment that it's a shame that you stopped reading my post after the second sentence. Could have at least read the whole thing before you wrote yours up!

I did read your entire post. Scrolls are still needed, but no where near the amount being made in the game due in large part to the Moonstone set. As a result, scrolls become very hard to trade which puts a burden on those boosted in them. A burden other boosts don't have. I used the shoes and pants story to show real world market doesn't work in the game no matter how many times people use it as an argument. And there have been many people who have done that for other situations. I finally got frustrated hearing the argument, so told that silly story. While it was intended to be personal since it reads better that way, it wasn't viscous. However, I'm sorry if it offended you.

This issue is that the people who are boosted in scrolls have to adapt stupid or extreme strategies just to survive. That has been mentioned many times here and in other threads by those boosted in scrolls and by those who listen to them. They have a very difficult time getting crystal and silk as a result of the problem. So, the question isn't if there is a problem. The devs admit there is. The question is what can be done about it. I think the root cause is that it produces scrolls almost as a side effect of producing CCs which people crave. Since you could place as many as you have room for, the problem only grows as more and more people place them. The devs are going to limit future players to only be able to get one. That is not a fix since so many people already have a lot placed and they aren't going away. So, do you leave scroll producers handicapped or do you try to do something to fix the problem? The most common fix that isn't just a work around mentioned is to make it produce boost relative goods. Of them, I prefer it being your boost. The would create an even playing field with the excess goods production. I'm sure people would complain, but at least it relieves the burden currently carried mainly by scroll boosted players. I say mainly because some of us take unneeded scroll trades to help our fellows and some neighbors. As a result, I have more scrolls then my other two T2s combined. And I don't have any pieces of the set placed that produce scrolls.

If they do make it boost relative, I'd probably place a few of my 15 libraries in storage along with some of the 82 minor buildings to get the CCs.

 

[Kekune]

Of them, I prefer it being your boost. The would create an even playing field with the excess goods production.

It would make for a level playing field if we were starting from neutral, which we're not. It would at least stop adding to that surplus, but I'd imagine the existing surplus is going to affect trading far into the future, even if the set output changed today. So that leaves scrolls players still producing a good that isn't in demand. At least if it's +1, scrolls players can make something that's immediately tradeable.

 

[Yogi Dave]

It would make for a level playing field if we were starting from neutral, which we're not. It would at least stop adding to that surplus, but I'd imagine the existing surplus is going to affect trading far into the future, even if the set output changed today. So that leaves scrolls players still producing a good that isn't in demand. At least if it's +1, scrolls players can make something that's immediately tradeable.

Yeah, the horse is out of the barn, so not starting from level playing field and the surplus scrolls will be around for a long time. It's a very good point that scroll producers would at least be making silk from the libraries. Although, I didn't think of it at the moment I was posting above, with boost+1, I'll be making scrolls. lol Oh well, that's fine. They just go in storage with what will become an every growing spell frag pile. No biggie.

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

It would make for a level playing field if we were starting from neutral, which we're not. It would at least stop adding to that surplus, but I'd imagine the existing surplus is going to affect trading far into the future, even if the set output changed today. So that leaves scrolls players still producing a good that isn't in demand. At least if it's +1, scrolls players can make something that's immediately tradeable.

That surplus is big, but not impossible to clear. it surely will take months but months is reasonable.

The current fix (1 each) is a many years solution.
There needs to be some ligt at the end of the tunnel, the issue now is that the tunnel is 1000 miles long it's insumountable, but if it's only 10 miles long it will already boost morale a lot.

I do indeed like a +1 bonus more than a +0 bonus.