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    Your Elvenar Team

Evaluation of Elven Tile Space for Chapters 1-6.

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
@crackie ,
I had someone ask me before :
"you're @ same CH I am, we both are on progression pause,
equal research, yet you never run outta stuff and I do, Why ??? "

I said simple :
"Well my MH is lvl7, yours is lvl12. All that xtra pop/cul I'm saving,
went straight into more manufacturing/stuff..... Thats Why. "

I've seen wayyyyyy toooo many cities with a big MH, and thier
growth is stunted.. my (opinion) is thats a bad thing.... If your
playstyle syncs with that, then by all means do it.
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
I always upgrade my Main Hall to max. My growth was not stunted and I never ran out of anything except coins and supplies. But I also had a dedicated catering city with a lv2 barracks and no armories. The population I saved from those went right into manufactories.
 

crackie

Well-Known Member
@BrinDarby I did qualify it with Chap 1-3 MH bc that's where the coin crunch is felt most and those early residences are occupied by po peasants with not much to toss into the coffers. After that, I agree my MH is less of a priority. As you chapter, you will also have more neighbors to visit due to wider scouted area so the coin crunch subsides.
 

Gustoff

Member
Ok, so took the overscouting advice given above and started my 4th city pretty much ignoring most of the NPC quests (so far).
Questions inserted below:

This is sooooooo true. All the advisor/personal tasks do is get you stuck faster.
Do Not upgrade MH when it says to, do it when you want to, seriously......

[snip]

Why is upgrading the Main Hall a problem? On one of my earlier cities, I ran into problems hitting the cap of the MH Gold/supplies and need to deliberately *not* click on a workshop for days while I wait for KP to accumulate to allow me to upgrade to level 5 and resolve the problem.

From there start moving up again, every 2-3 chapters, pause and chapterize
your city, then keep going....

[snip]

Could you please explain what is meant by 'chapterize' ? Do you main max out all the possible building upgrades?

As far as I see it, there are 4 sins for an early CH player
1) upgrading MH too much , too quickly.
2) going too fast and running outta just about everything
3) severe overscouting so everything is very-hard on map.
4) placing too many expansions, too quickly. ( kills cater costs )
( Implied is not letting the community play your game for ya )

[snip]

1) Again how does the level of the MH affect the game mechanics, I see it as a warehouse.
2) From my 2 weeks/3 villages of experience this is more a space management issue than a resource one. Once you have a Trader, most resources can be acquired within a day.
3) Tbh, the overscouting issue has only been an issue when quests demand that the encounter be resolved by fighting. With a properly managed gold/supply/goods source all the encounters can be negotiated (until they require T2 resources before your research allows you to build the manufacturies or acquire enough T1 resources for 2 star trades.
4) What is 'cater costs'? I have been dutifully polishing every possible neighbor daily for every free bonus I can get. About 20% of those polished by me reciprocate (depends on server pop - Arendyll vs Harandar).

I am still unclear about the true benefits of culture bonus, other than preventing further building if I run out. Even if culture is 0, (unlike Civilization) the citizens don't appear to revolt and leave, they just do the minimum promised production, right? I've been building 8 of the preferred Manufactuaries and scouting provinces with that resource relic whenever I can (passing through T2/T3 preferred ones on the way) but I still seem to be producing the same number of resources each time (even if I'm supposed to be at 170%).

Thanks as always for your mountains of help.
 

Sprite1313

Well-Known Member
1) Again how does the level of the MH affect the game mechanics, I see it as a warehouse.
I upgrade my main hall when I am able (as long as I have the goods/sentient goods required). I like getting the extra coins from NH (which I can use to buy KP, amongst other things). It can be a challenge in early chapters, because the MH is a bit of a population/culture hog. I find it worth it. But that is my playstyle. It doesn't really affect the game mechanics, but it does take space and other resources.

3) Tbh, the overscouting issue has only been an issue when quests demand that the encounter be resolved by fighting. With a properly managed gold/supply/goods source all the encounters can be negotiated (until they require T2 resources before your research allows you to build the manufacturies or acquire enough T1 resources for 2 star trades.
4) What is 'cater costs'? I have been dutifully polishing every possible neighbor daily for every free bonus I can get. About 20% of those polished by me reciprocate (depends on server pop - Arendyll vs Harandar).
Catering costs are how much it requires to negotiate an encounter. I don't know if anyone has broken down percentages, but it will require fewer supplies to negotiate a very easy province than a medium or hard one. I'm not sure exactly where the balance point might be, but if the negotiating (catering) costs get too high, you might start to find it difficult to negotiate, research and build. Some of that will depend on how quickly you want to progress through chapters.

I am still unclear about the true benefits of culture bonus, other than preventing further building if I run out.
Higher culture increases the output of your workshops and residences. If you keep your culture high, and use ensorcelled endowment (EE) spells, you might even be able to reduce the number of WS you have, giving you back space, culture and population to use for other things. But you are right, your citizens aren't going to riot and start burning buildings if your culture gets low. There are players who don't worry about it much, and that is an option, but you will accumulate supplies and gold more slowly.

Just my two cents :)
 

Diellashana

Member
What is a reasonable size for a beginner city?

Using my density numbers I've started to think about the minimum number of tiles/expansions needed for a chapter to see if its possible to fully cater spire. Rough numbers here:

To get a general sense here are some numbers for a no workshop, no AW, no goods city the table below lists the tiles needed per building, a road factor, then it all gets converted to expansions needed.

1642882032399.png


Efficient city shapes are rectangles or squares. So I get the sense that a reasonable size for a city is 20-25 expansions in chapters 1-7 to cover AW, goods, workshops, event buildings.

A chapter 7 size 25 city with no AW would need about 10 additional expansions to cover the goods required to cater. This still doesn't include workshops or event building space.

Now - If that chapter 7 size 25 city used instants and enchantments effectively I imaging that they could cut their requirements for goods by 25% ? Also, In chapter 6 and 7 you get the mountain halls and prosperity towers AWs. Throw in a couple of premium expansions, magic workshops/residences and then does it become reasonable for a chapter 7 size 25 city to fully cater?

I think this illustrates how hard it is to complete the spire by yourself for a new city. I do think becomes possible eventually.

As an aside, looking at the effective space, the Main Hall and Barracks don't take up significantly more space per chapter because you become more efficient with population and culture. The armory though is a space monster and people generally have more than 1. Also, the minimum number of expansions needed doesn't skyrocket. To me this means that a city allows for more AWs, extras, workshops, event or other buildings over time.
 

Sprite1313

Well-Known Member
The armory though is a space monster and people generally have more than 1
I'd agree that armouries aren't critical in early chapters for a catering player; they only become critical after you unlock orcs. You are going to want to stockpile them to continue catering. You will either need more armouries, several orc nests, and/or some event buildings that award orcs (like the scare carriage). But you have some time before you need to worry about that.
 

Diellashana

Member
Go big or go home.

1642901761170.png


This is a dirty estimation. No AW, no enchant/instant, no premium expansions. A level 7, 10 x 10 city could do it or be within an order of magnitude. Example: That 30.0 expansions of workshops are Level 19 and contain 13 actual workshop buildings. The remaining space is serviced by Lava Codex and Residences equivalent to chapter 7. This leaves 9.2 expansions worth of anything or efficiency buffer.

Any level 7's around 100 expansions out there? How is your spire performance?
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
In chapter 7 I was 7×7. Gold spire and 3k ish in the tournaments.

My main is in chapter 9 8x8. Gold spire and 7k ish in the tournaments. I could not do better with more expansions due to cleared world map provinces. I do not have any more tournament tents more space in my city would not change that.
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
However, I cater exclusively. One of the benifits is requiring less space than a hybrid city. A fighter would need room for armories, upgraded barracks, military wonders and extra workshops. They could cut back on the manufactories though so some space saving there. A 10x10 chapter 7 would have enough room to do everything really well, imo.
 

crackie

Well-Known Member
Any reason to skip AWs though? They ding you way less than expansions and can potentially save you space. I am in chap 12 (gold spire and 8300 tourney) with exactly 100 expansions so if you hit 100 exp already in chapter 7, that is a very large and spacious city. My smaller city has 80 exp in chap 10 (gold spire and 6500 tourney). Both cities have very high level wonders mostly for fighting.
 

MaidenFair

Well-Known Member
I just entered chapter 7 a few days ago, catering almost everything (with an exception for the first few tents of tourney). I only have 39 expansions, tourney average is 3330, and I always hit silver spire. I can go all the way to the top but I'm not sure whether it's sustainable to do every week for me at the moment (my focus has been tourney, so I'm trying to make sure I have enough goods for that to stay sustainable first). I also have 3 AWs with levels of 6, 7, and 8, respectively; if I didn't have those, I might be able to do gold spire every week. I'm expecting I'll need to add 2 expansions to have enough room for the suggested number of Fairy buildings, not from lack of space but because they're weird shapes.
 

Diellashana

Member
@crackie No reason to skip AWs. Its just hard to make a good assumption to include in the calculation.

Advancing through chapter 7 will give you 27 province expansions and give Research Expansion # 31. 100 expansions is not doable at chapter 7.

@Iyapo1 Thanks for stating you can get gold at 49!

I do like @BrinDarby suggestion on keeping MH small until there is a need. I don't think the suggestion is to keep it small. Maybe upgrade it last. I also like the idea of sitting at the end of a chapter for a bit while you upgrade your buildings and dumping extra KP into AWs.

@MaidenFair I agree silver is a good no stress goal for spire.

This napkin math helps me get over my fear of getting too big. Looking at the squad size equation variables made me stress seeing that the number of expansions was the biggest contributor to cost increase. There really is no point of no return. The moral of the story is to use what you do have effectively. Don't be afraid to expand.
 
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Diellashana

Member
I mean to say that people have stated they can reach gold with a medium size city. Not too small and not overly huge which has been pumped up with a lot of premium expansions. I have also shown [to myself at least] that even at a large number of expansions, increasing total size also increases total free space. No need to fret over staying small and no need to fret about buying premium expansions (they do help though).
 
Last edited:

Sprite1313

Well-Known Member
sitting at the end of a chapter for a bit while you upgrade your buildings and dumping extra KP into AWs.
You might consider, instead, sitting at the beginning of the next chapter (after advanced scouts). That way, any event buildings will be that chapter, and your scouting costs will go down.

And you will also need to ensure your MH is large enough to provide the gold needed for research. Just one more factor (maybe add another napkin :p )
 

Diellashana

Member
There is no bad technology/research. Optional tech does not factor into the equation. The only thing that can harm you is passing up optional squad size upgrade tech.

@Sprite1313 That napkin math would kind of be a projection of how much time is needed to be spent in chapter. You would have to estimate a type of schedule performance index (SPI) and cost performance index (CPI) project management style and compare your progress. Any free slack time would be converted into KP. That KP could then be spent at the beginning of the chapter instead of the end.

- Or -

Just sit at the beginning until you are bored and think its a good time to start working through the tech tree.
 

crackie

Well-Known Member
Buildings are chaptered when you receive them, not when you place them. Therefore, I would *cough hack wheeze* agree with @Sprite1313 (that was SO HARD to get out!) that if you want to sit and build wonders, it’s better to sit after unlocking adv scouts in new chapter to save on RRs. RRs are harder to get than diamonds!

My second city was able to complete Spire as soon as I unlocked it in Chap 3, given it’s a second city not needing to repeat mistakes of my first city. I think I only have one premium plot from Cyber Monday sale. I knew chap 3 Spire is the cheapest I will see, so climb high and climb often to maximize moonstones libraries and magic buildings. I knew military would suck early game too so I committed hard on factories. Then I just listened to my city. I don’t cross trade in order to not muddle up my own numbers so I can track how much of each tier I am actually using each week. If the numbers are falling, add more factories until I am netting positive a little each week. Then voila, I am sustainable for the Spire and will be for every chapter after that.

I also have 3 AWs with levels of 6, 7, and 8, respectively; if I didn't have those, I might be able to do gold spire every week.
Don’t be afraid to upgrade your wonders! 20 total levels won’t hurt you. Wonder levels is the smallest influencing variable. They took the moonstones out of the Spire when I was in (I think) chap 5 of my second city. I used to just swap them out with new ones each chapter. Suddenly, I found myself with a ton of chap 3 Moonstone pieces, but chap 3 anything is not great! So I had to sit around to gather enough RR/diamonds to upgrade my Moonstone pieces out of chap 3. By the time I hit Dwarf, my Needles was already at lvl 20+. And yet, I was catering until I got to Orcs, mostly bc I knew from my first city that I’m going to need tons of Pet Food each week so I build up a stash by catering. So yeah, I had a fighting city that was catering for awhile and totally inefficient going about it, but still able to finish Spire and avg 15 provinces to 6* in tourney.
 

MaidenFair

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reassurance, @crackie ! It's good to hear those numbers as well. I agree that the AW levels in of themselves aren't very bad but unfortunately I picked several military wonders at a period when I was assuming I'd hybridize, before I realised I could realistically commit to only catering for a very long while. So while wonder levels in general should be fine, those wonder levels in particular (Sanctuary and Needles) aren't actually doing me any good as a catering-only city, while still affecting how expensive it is to climb the Spire. I can't quite bring myself to tear them down yet but I know they're negatively affecting my numbers without really giving me anything in return at the moment.
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
1) Again how does the level of the MH affect the game mechanics, I see it as a warehouse.
2) From my 2 weeks/3 villages of experience this is more a space management issue than a resource one. Once you have a Trader, most resources can be acquired within a day.
3) Tbh, the overscouting issue has only been an issue when quests demand that the encounter be resolved by fighting. With a properly managed gold/supply/goods source all the encounters can be negotiated (until they require T2 resources before your research allows you to build the manufacturies or acquire enough T1 resources for 2 star trades.
4) What is 'cater costs'? I have been dutifully polishing every possible neighbor daily for every free bonus I can get. About 20% of those polished by me reciprocate (depends on server pop - Arendyll vs Harandar).
I am so sorry, thought I replied to this days ago, just saw I didn't ....

Yes, Chapterize, bringing all placed bldgs to current chapter, excluding
if you are specifically leaving a few in earlier chapters.

now MH... ( Im CH4 ) my last MH upgrade only happened cause I need'd a bigger
cap. to do a scout, and I'm almost up against that again.... Earlier to this, It was
always I need'd more armories/manufacturing than I did a bigger cap to MH.
I remember a point where to upgrade MH , per a personal task, would cost me
20% T1 production. That was when I said heck no, and from then on, only upgraded
my MH when I need'd to, not when the prompts were telling me to. Because of that,
I was able to grow faster, and have more goods to cater Spire with this whole time.
I top the Spire every week and cater most of it. While Spire is open, I never come
close to redline'n ( max'n out ) my MH cap. So only 2-3 days a week am I redline'd
and that allows me to be fully prepp'd come next SPire opening. I never said don't
upgrade MH, just don't follow the personal tasks for that if ur a CH1-3 player. Just
upgrade MH when it makes sense to you, is all I said.

Overscouting early on, and in CH1-6, in my opinion of 4 things....
Being gung-ho, and since CH 1-3 require so few provinces to advance, its very
easy just to plow thru till ooooops, very-hard..... Next is the trader fee, and wanting
to increase no fee ppl, you scout out further, faster... Then there's just wanting more
provinces for relics in tournaments... and finally ya got Event tasks that propell
very new players to close even more provinces..... Yes maybee this does clear up
by say CH8 or above, but this thread is about CH1-6 issues.

"cater costs" , ya know negociating.... mainly I'm talking Spire Cater costs, I barely
notice loss of stuff for regular or tournament encounters. So lets say I plop down
4 expansions I have save'd up..... that next Spire will be more expensive, and notice'able.
If its not a net gain between add'd production due to add'd space, and add'd loss
due to Spire being more expensive for 42/48 caters, then right now for me its not logical
to place any expansions, for me.

My (2) CH3 cities are tiny, they top Spire every week and do 7x6 in tournaments.
Just like @crackie , they instantly could top spire as soon as they hit CH3, due to
not repeating mistakes I made in my main city. They make more than they use each
week, thus are building up both goods/troops.

OP's focus is CH1-6 ... and I believe that untill you hit 700% x3, your city is in enough
flux, that balancing out Event bldgs vs production is iffy @ best. I really like'd this
topic cause its basically ferret'n out things that will make a CH6 player, much better, to
then move on fwd thru the game.
 
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