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    Your Elvenar Team

Evaluation of Elven Tile Space for Chapters 1-6.

Diellashana

Member
[Edit for disclaimer - This is my progression of a model. It starts off with too many errors. It shows my thought process over time. My most up to date thoughts will be further down in the thread if they exists.]

Beginning the game recently I needed a way to value my buildings. I have browsed a few techniques and tools but came up with my take on how to value tile efficiency (Making one’s own spreadsheets is FUN!).

Here is what I have come up with for Elven buildings so far:

ChapterPopulationCultureSuppliesT3T2T1
19.427.84.81.76
213.933.37.22.692.62
336.848.913.04.865.464.34
438.360.013.57.485.674.71
539.370.013.98.746.454.72
648.096.016.09.385.345.09

Derivations

Culture:

Everything starts with culture. For each chapter I took the highest non-gem culture density building at that level. Example: In chapter 1, the highest density non-gem culture building is the flying boat, 250 culture / 9 spaces = 27.8 culture per space. Anything with culture now gets an added tile value for every 27.8 culture in this chapter.

Population:

Residences provide the base resource for population. They have population cost as well as culture cost. The amount of space a residence uses is it’s base space cost plus the space required to cover its culture cost. Example: The Chapter 3, level 15 elven residence provides a cumulative population of 420, requires a cumulative culture cost of 118, and takes up 9 spaces. The total space cost is 9 + 118 / 48.9 = 11.4 spaces. The tile density then becomes 420 population / 11.4 = 36.8 population per space.

Inference between chapters without upgrades:

Not all chapters have level upgrades for buildings so we need a way to infer a value for chapters without upgrades. We do this by updating the relative culture cost at that chapter while keeping base costs the same. This has an effect of making buildings more effective at higher chapters even though they haven’t been replaced. Within various levels of a chapter sometimes a building will lose efficiency; In that case the value listed above is the highest value for that chapter. Inference example: Chapter 4 has no upgrade for elven residences, we will use chapter 3 variables but use the updated culture density ratio: 9 spaces + 118 culture / 60 = 11.0. We now generate the same amount of population but only require 11 and not 11.4 spaces as we did in the previous chapter.

Use examples:
u9dbycgW5VQbBCVC33rPaj_cU7iZFdz7t5BSJ8rrecIj4QAXCCicdIPh6PrKBLSxJ4I0GPu3vhA70Ylb2J0hqY3QQuw6mgWlN7Mc8w9o5V0sOkhMMnnvDYAwpMJFWCd0CVoj6ck8


The way I compare is to consider how a building is performing in effective space to its actual space as a percent, 100 x (Effective space - actual space) / actual space, then sort the list. Example: My Mana Plant takes up 1 space but is performing as if it were about 6 spaces! Very nice.

First a few things. I have to watch out for variable units. Some buildings are different from the base calculation. Sometimes I see supplies per hour or day or per 21 hours and have to make adjustments. Goods buildings do not get relic bonuses. For goods I’ll divide their effectiveness by my current maximum relic bonus plus 1.

I have Mana Sawmill highlighted because it’s an option for me to produce in my magic academy. I put in the numbers and quickly copied the calculations down. It came in at 25% above my current chapter and only 14% above the next chapter. I’ll pass.

I’ve also noticed that my Elvenade Brewery is under performing. It could be replaced by another Well of Floating Islands if I really needed the population and wanted to increase my efficiency. Those will be first to be replaced in the next event.

Another observation is that the Moonstone Library set buildings I have are really, really good. I'll keep those upgraded.

I’m looking forward to the next event starting soon (The Forbidden Ruins). This is how I’ve set myself up to compare the buildings I’ll get from that event against my old Winter Magic event buildings. I hope this has been entertaining.
 
Last edited:

Sprite1313

Well-Known Member
Beginning the game recently I needed a way to value my buildings. I have browsed a few techniques and tools but came up with my take on how to value tile efficiency (Making one’s own spreadsheets is FUN!).

Here is what I have come up with for Elven buildings so far:

ChapterPopulationCultureSuppliesT3T2T1
19.427.84.81.76
213.933.37.22.692.62
336.848.913.04.865.464.34
438.360.013.57.485.674.71
539.370.013.98.746.454.72
648.096.016.09.385.345.09

Derivations

Culture:

Everything starts with culture. For each chapter I took the highest non-gem culture density building at that level. Example: In chapter 1, the highest density non-gem culture building is the flying boat, 250 culture / 9 spaces = 27.8 culture per space. Anything with culture now gets an added tile value for every 27.8 culture in this chapter.

Population:

Residences provide the base resource for population. They have population cost as well as culture cost. The amount of space a residence uses is it’s base space cost plus the space required to cover its culture cost. Example: The Chapter 3, level 15 elven residence provides a cumulative population of 420, requires a cumulative culture cost of 118, and takes up 9 spaces. The total space cost is 9 + 118 / 48.9 = 11.4 spaces. The tile density then becomes 420 population / 11.4 = 36.8 population per space.

Inference between chapters without upgrades:

Not all chapters have level upgrades for buildings so we need a way to infer a value for chapters without upgrades. We do this by updating the relative culture cost at that chapter while keeping base costs the same. This has an effect of making buildings more effective at higher chapters even though they haven’t been replaced. Within various levels of a chapter sometimes a building will lose efficiency; In that case the value listed above is the highest value for that chapter. Inference example: Chapter 4 has no upgrade for elven residences, we will use chapter 3 variables but use the updated culture density ratio: 9 spaces + 118 culture / 60 = 11.0. We now generate the same amount of population but only require 11 and not 11.4 spaces as we did in the previous chapter.

Use examples:
u9dbycgW5VQbBCVC33rPaj_cU7iZFdz7t5BSJ8rrecIj4QAXCCicdIPh6PrKBLSxJ4I0GPu3vhA70Ylb2J0hqY3QQuw6mgWlN7Mc8w9o5V0sOkhMMnnvDYAwpMJFWCd0CVoj6ck8


The way I compare is to consider how a building is performing in effective space to its actual space as a percent, 100 x (Effective space - actual space) / actual space, then sort the list. Example: My Mana Plant takes up 1 space but is performing as if it were about 6 spaces! Very nice.

First a few things. I have to watch out for variable units. Some buildings are different from the base calculation. Sometimes I see supplies per hour or day or per 21 hours and have to make adjustments. Goods buildings do not get relic bonuses. For goods I’ll divide their effectiveness by my current maximum relic bonus plus 1.

I have Mana Sawmill highlighted because it’s an option for me to produce in my magic academy. I put in the numbers and quickly copied the calculations down. It came in at 25% above my current chapter and only 14% above the next chapter. I’ll pass.

I’ve also noticed that my Elvenade Brewery is under performing. It could be replaced by another Well of Floating Islands if I really needed the population and wanted to increase my efficiency. Those will be first to be replaced in the next event.

Another observation is that the Moonstone Library set buildings I have are really, really good. I'll keep those upgraded.

I’m looking forward to the next event starting soon (The Forbidden Ruins). This is how I’ve set myself up to compare the buildings I’ll get from that event against my old Winter Magic event buildings. I hope this has been entertaining.
Have you discovered Elven Architect? That site already does a lot of the comparisons for you, and will also help you as you move into chapters that require other game resources like mana (the main reason a lot of players have mana sawmills), seeds and orcs.
 

Henroo

Well-Known Member
@Diellashana Several points for your consideration:
First of all, I would advise you to focus more on population per square concerns than culture concerns. As you move through the game, population is going to be a bigger bottleneck than culture. By far. At higher levels the biggest concern is finding enough pop to do upgrades. I've been held back many times by not having enough pop. I've never once been held back by not having enough culture.
Second: It seems you are using the culture buildings you can make as a baseline. This is probably a mistake. The culture buildings you win in events are almost always better on a square for square basis then the culture buildings you make with your builders.
Third: As you progress through the game, you will unlock new resources. In some cases this will cause what buildings produce to change. For example, in your post you mentioned both the Moonstone Library set and Mana Sawmills. In the Woodelves chapter (ch 9) mana is introduced as a new resource. A Mana Sawmill which is Woodelves level or higher is going to be producing mana instead of supplies. The same thing will happen with Moonstone Gate, Gum Trees, and Mana Plants. As soon as you upgrade them to Woodelves level, they will start producing mana instead of goods or supplies. And by no means are these the only buildings that do this, I am just using these as examples.
 

Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
Very interesting. This is my only concern:
For each chapter I took the highest non-gem culture density building at that level.
By the time I hit chapter 3 my lowest producing culture buildings came out of the Magic Academy or from events and seriously out performed the culture buildings in the building menu. Meaning that each building in your chart that requires culture would have a smaller foot print for many players.
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
I see a typo @Diellashana ,
Frozen Father Tree's culture is 790 ( not 660 ) @ CH3.
Father Tree & Father Glitter Tree are both 760 @ CH3.
in CH4... FFT is 920 & FT/FGT are 880.

Father Glitter Tree can be aquired in MA Mystical Object chest
or in some events of the past.

Sprite is right eArchitect has a comparison page, by 1st selecting
ohh say for culture, then click all bldgs @ bottom, and it will expand
the list to include all the way down to CH 1 bldgs.

In CH1, FrozenFatherTree has a per tile density of 63.33 while
a LavaCodex ( avail in MA ) comes in at 62.50.....as you progress
chapters thier per tile density goes up.

For each chapter I took the highest non-gem culture density building at that level. Example: In chapter 1, the highest density non-gem culture building is the flying boat, 250 culture / 9 spaces = 27.8 culture per space.
Basing everything just off buildable buildings and not craftable bldgs, will
really mess with your spreadsheet.... because....
A chapter 3 Lava Codex is 350, with a per tile density of 87.50.
as said above a CH 1 version is still 62.50 much better than Flying Boat.
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
The Chapter 3, level 15 elven residence provides a cumulative population of 420, requires a cumulative culture cost of 118, and takes up 9 spaces. The total space cost is 9 + 118 / 48.9 = 11.4 spaces. The tile density then becomes 420 population / 11.4 = 36.8 population per space.
what is 48.9 ??? ( 420/9=46.67 )

Now if a residence takes away culture, seems you're saying thats a net loss to per tile pop,
but in your math how exactly do you evaluate the ElvenBrewery that adds to culture ?
Wouldn't that be a net gain, per tile in costs ?? can we see your math comparing that to
the Well of Floating Islands ( also net gain ), & residnces ( net loss ) ???

as @Henroo , has said population long term is the bigger problem... and its also been
put forth in other threads by advanced players ( I know this is about CH1-6 ) that certain
event pop bldgs combined with the right culture bldgs, give => results as the best hybrid
event/:diamond: bldgs offered... ( per tile used )-( ;) this also holds true for CH 1-6 players )

All the comparisons on eArchitect are raw, so only consider 1 criteria at a time.
They save me alot of time, I bet they will you too....

Edit: Also remember residences give Coins, event/MA bldgs for pop/cul, do not.
 

Diellashana

Member
Thanks for the feedback everyone. Here are my adjusted basis numbers and example of how the baseline estimates give sort results. It greatly lowers pure culture and lower chapter buildings. The chapter % number can be thought of performance percent change from baseline for that chapter.

Note: Goods values are adjusted to equivalent T3 goods. The displayed table number for T1 is raw / 2.25. The displayed number for T2 is raw / 1.5. The chapter of the placed building is not in the table.

qj7Lg4B9K5DOSziT1HUNtXw5ezX-0KmEruS3LkvwUUeTU__BdpPuMvwr_bsasfeT7wzWwWYKg7rzDIRwd2954R00UMNct4R07FGZb_2AB7-cWBHIa3F3YcZL6QW3vSOyk6XZQ3ik



@Sprite1313 I have found Elven Architect. I actually went too long without finding the reports tab for my city and haven't delved too much into its data tables. I just found out that I can’t just level everything to max. I barely have enough pop to minimally advance into the next chapter size buildings. I actually had to delete half of my manufacturers because the next chapter main hall, armory, and barracks take way too many resources. This made me rethink my life (Elvenar) in that what do I want? What can I do. I’ve refocused on KP, and event/spire/tourney participation. The KP is limiting. Do I have enough of a build to get to the next chapter? Check? Ok, let's try to arrange what we have to do the best in events/spire/tourny to contribute to my FS.

@Henroo I agree that I’ve overvalued culture. I was trying to estimate what a no-gem player may do. I’ve redone my chart with the maximum gem cost culture building per chapter. This helped filter pure culture and lower chapter buildings. Thinking of another technique is within the spreadsheet, temporarily delete all culture entries and resort. To go further next would be to delete the next column of entries that matter less, and so on. I’m hesitant to ignore hybrid buildings altogether.

@BrinDarby The Frozen Father Tree was a lower chapter is why. I agree on changing the basis. I don’t have a lot of exposure to superb craftable buildings right now but I’ll keep my eye out. I’ve upped my basis to include gem bought buildings. The 48.9… trying to adjust effective size based on total cost. I agree with pop being the major problem. I’ve adjusted and have an idea of how to manipulate my spreadsheet entries if I want to kill off the culture entry. I’ve ignored coins for now as a lot of spire videos say that is not a consideration for them.

I know someone is going to say why don't I redo do my baselines for magic residences and workshops? Maybe when I actually have a significant number of them; But maybe one day. This spreadsheet experiment helps get me thinking about relationships.
 

Henroo

Well-Known Member
@Diellashana Something else I notice is that you have the Leaf Codex on your chart. What about the Lava Codex? The Lava Codex can also be crafted in the Magic Academy, it is the same size as Leaf Codex, and the Lava Codex provides more culture. Other than the somewhat unattractive graphic, the Lava Codex is straight up better.
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
I don’t have a lot of exposure to superb craftable buildings right now
FatherTree 3x3 was xmas gift from Innogames
FatherGlitterTree 3x3 is a gift in MysticalObject in your MA
( I have 2 other event bldgs that have identical stats to FGT )
FrozenFatherTree 3x3 was a prize in WinterMagic

I always measure any culture only bldg against Lava Codex...
which by the way is cheap in MA, and widely craftable in any Chapter.
I am not forgetting intangables, where a bigger culture only bldg shines.

Just for reference :
1642305441758.png

(all of which kick Flying Boat's butt)
 

Henroo

Well-Known Member
I always measure any culture only bldg against Lava Codex...
which by the way is cheap in MA, and widely craftable in any Chapter.
Yep. Lava Codex is an excellent yardstick for the reasons you say. It is top notch on a square for square basis, inexpensive to craft, and it is available in any chapter.
 

Gladiola

Well-Known Member
The value of culture buildings is also dependent on whether they can receive neighborly help or not, especially for people in fellowships with dependable neighborly help. This tends to favor larger buildings (3x3 squares or greater) as they will have the most impact when receiving help.

Culture is a consideration for me because I run a build with relatively few workshops and residences and rely on the culture boost for extra supplies and coins. I'm only in the Dwarve chapter though and haven't hit Woodelves where mana-producing buildings also have culture values.

Edit: I also factor in the usefulness of buildings in events. I have more smaller factories and workshops even if they might not be as efficient per square in part to fulfill event and FA requirements to produce X number of 3 hour or 9 hour or 15 minute productions. For this purpose sometimes having 3 3x4 buildings is better than having 2 4x4 buildings, for example.
 

Myne

Well-Known Member
As you work through and complete provinces on your world map, you will have more opportunities to use in the tournaments. That will really help with your KP.
Elvenar is a long term strategy game. Try to keep in mind that anything you place in your city needs to be producing something for you, culture, coins, population, goods. You will thank yourself in the longrun.
Keep your magic academy busy as much as you can, it will give you a leg up with things. If you are a newer player, it will help a lot with relics. The more relics of your boosted goods you have, the more you produce.
 

Diellashana

Member
Thank you all for the Lava Codex recommendation. My napkin math says it's a great compromise. Gem bought buildings are still great but how many people are filling their tiles with them exclusively? I tried to look forward to higher chapters as well. Things get weird when seeds, mana, etc. are thrown into the mix for a gem bought building.
 

Sprite1313

Well-Known Member
Thank you all for the Lava Codex recommendation. My napkin math says it's a great compromise. Gem bought buildings are still great but how many people are filling their tiles with them exclusively? I tried to look forward to higher chapters as well. Things get weird when seeds, mana, etc. are thrown into the mix for a gem bought building.
Word of caution on premium (diamond purchased) culture buildings - they can't be upgraded. So something that seems amazing in Chapter 6 is obsolete by Chapter 8. And so many of them are HUGE. Space is one of the biggest challenges, and the premium buildings don't end up with great per-square value. Even if you aren't a F2P player, that is a lot of money that could be spent in other ways. Use the gems to buy more event currency to get event buildings (that can be upgraded), or use gems to craft the RR spells in MA (if you don't have the resources to craft). Buy the magic buildings and upgrade them every chapter. There are lots of ways to spend diamonds in this game. Just my two cents, the premium culture buildings aren't a good investment.

Having said all that, one of the great things about Elvenar is that there is no wrong way to play. If the premium buildings make you happy - go forth and spend your diamonds and enjoy your game. :)
 

crackie

Well-Known Member
The value of culture buildings is also dependent on whether they can receive neighborly help or not, especially for people in fellowships with dependable neighborly help. This tends to favor larger buildings (3x3 squares or greater) as they will have the most impact when receiving help.
I have stopped building 2x2 culture buildings for this reason, at least permanent ones. A polish doubles a building’s culture output. If you are in a hopping neighborhood, which is more likely after the Great Migration, your highest culture building pretty much stays polished. In my case, it also stays permanently sparkled. Therefore, has more culture per tile than the lava codex. However, the 3x3 and 2x2 are good culture buildings starting out when expansions are limited.

I also factor in the usefulness of buildings in events. I have more smaller factories and workshops even if they might not be as efficient per square in part to fulfill event and FA requirements to produce X number of 3 hour or 9 hour or 15 minute productions. For this purpose sometimes having 3 3x4 buildings is better than having 2 4x4 buildings, for example.
I have a bunch of lvl 4 T1’s for the upgrading building to lvl 5+ event quests (if I run out of gum trees/mana plants to upgrade) and then they transition to deluxe shantytowns for FAs when event is over. They are also used for the 3hr/9hr quests (I distinguish by using marble for one and planks for the other). When FA is over, they get sold. You still need max producing T1’s for the make X goods quests (and then bracelets in FAs).
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
@Diellashana ,
Your post is about CH1-6 players, some of the comments pertain to further levels.
I mention'd intangables, and even I make sure I have a few biggest culture bldgs
to "spell up" as others do aswell... I run a base of 170%, and 4-5 days a week, I upp
that to 190-200% with spells.

So yeah lets take SunLoop from a couple events ago, in CH4 thats 1130c for a 3x4,
versus 1230c for (3) L.Codexes.... same tiles (12). If you don't have other high culture
bldgs, then thats a great choice even if its 100c less. Its a great bldg to spell-upp.
When you spell up, all thats necessary is knowing which your top culture bldgs are,
then you hit those with spells.

Most newer players, once they've played a full event, have some much better stuff
than anything buildable, and from there its just a replacement excercise for the most
part, every event after that. I only focused on Lava Codex for 3 reasons...... most early
CH players can fit 2x2s in easily and still have a few of them..... its #5 totally, on
the list of top culture/tile bldgs, and its cheap/craftable in any CH. (easy to get)

Lets say you see a combo bldg.... 320 cul / 380 pop, and its a 4x3. Sure it prolly won't
need a road, but it gives no coins. Your L15 Residence is 420 pop and gives coins.
Add in a L.Codex for 410c, and yess for 1 xtra tile ( 13 vs 12 ), you're getting not only
290ish culture, but 420 pop and the coins. In that case its 30cul less, 40pop more + coins.

I can say this, Avoid those :diamond:buildable bldgs, you can get as good or better stuff from
events with a little patience..... Save diamonds for a better MA/builders hut, expansions,
or other stuff....

I envy players like SoggyShorts, who claims and I think does have , only the most efficient
bldgs in his city. I was only trying to help you have a correct baseline for all your calculations.
Its fun to play around with the stats and develop your own strategies, so I hope you took
my comments that way... Each event usually has 1-2 good bldgs in 1 of 6 catagories.....
Troops/Culture/Population/goods/mana/seeds. So its like a puzzle, each event you get a
couple more pieces...... hehehe.
 

Diellashana

Member
Currently my values for pop are based off of the default residence and culture off of the Lava Codex. I want to calibrate my goods values to be reasonable.This is where it gets very subjective.

I know that the default calculation a lot of people like to use is the 9-9-3 collection schedule in a day. In one day cycle you will have collected about 49% more than if you collected exactly the 1 day option.

Eventually most people will max out their relic bonus of 700% more. I’m actually surprised how fast this is increasing for me. I tried estimating my current relic bonus at chapters but it’s impossible for me to know. I’m going to just assume max 700% more or times 8.

Example: A chapter 2, level 9 elven marble manufactury produces 72(1.49)(8) = 858.2 goods. It’s base tile area is 4. I’ve calculated to cover its population and culture cost, an additional 6 tiles are needed for a total tile cost of 11 (If your city was perfectly tuned with exactly 0 available culture and population, you would need to add a sliver of a residence and a Lava Codex). The result is that a level 9 marble manufactury is 858.2 / 11 = 77.8 Goods per tile per day.

This helps put my current marble producing magical supply station into perspective. It takes 12 tiles, gives 370 culture, and produces 700 marble. It takes up 12 tiles but gives acts like 9.4 tiles of combined residence, Lava Codex, and marble manufactury.

But it's all subjective. My current relic bonus is not 700%, it’s 266%. This means for me it’s acting like 16 tiles while only taking 12. Very nice for me still but someone with a high relic bonus wouldn’t look at it very hard.

I think I’m going to implement my personal relic bonus number not within my manufactury tab but in my weights calculation tab.

Ok. Below is my new weights table at the top and some input data from random buildings I have from chapter II and III with what they are currently yielding. It’s weird but right now I’m considering 21 hours and 1 day the same.

g5LCOfqRnJf10TPMiwHBxegqxzID_O7ZvR3ODKIYuV7R7dR_Ad1GLMCifYHz5fT3nUJciVZNEKNX3TlZVx-pj2cw6hytXtpoRFKSEiSDEKyRNIeZkYjCXjSB4JIqgBSlad7xN-PU


@Sprite1313 Thanks. I’ve heard one strategy is to accumulate Magic Workshops from the spire over time. Are Magic Residences something people use and keep up to date as well?

@crackie Does culture from neighborly help count towards plopping down a new building or only base culture? …my daughters character name in a roblox game is baby unicorn. She likes sparkles too. I got some L4’s ready for tomorrow as well.
@BrinDarby I’ve loved your input thanks. Why spell up a building to get over 170?
 

Sprite1313

Well-Known Member
Are Magic Residences something people use and keep up to date as well?
Absolutely. They are much more efficient - providing more pop and coins/square than standard residences. You can also upgrade them as soon as you open a new chapter (instead of waiting for the residence research(es) in the chapter). This can help with the potential pop crunch as you are upgrading manus and troop buildings. They do require either blueprints or diamonds to upgrade, of course. Or, you can wait and see if you win MR and MW in the spire each week, rather than spending to upgrade.

I switched to all magic buildings as soon as I was able (luckily, I got into a gold spire and 10-chest FS early on).

On your culture questions - higher culture means more coins from houses and more supplies from WS. If you want to see what that looks like, check how many supplies you will get from your WS, then apply a couple of EE spells to some buildings that have received neighbourly help. Then look at you WS again, and you can see that you are likely getting more supplies. I get about 3k additional supplies per workshop per 5-minute production when I have some sparkly buildings.
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
Why spell up a building to get over 170?
More is better ????

There's 2 schools of thought here ....
1) already have a 170% culture boost
2) count on NH to keep you @ 170% culture boost
The only time this even matters is when you collect something ( bldgs that apply ).

Also 2 reasons to use the NH spell.....
1) to dbbl culture the bldg gives when helped.
2) to increase Culture bonus 5% per bldg spell'd/help'd

When combined.... you get a bonus, on a bonus....
Lets say you're at 190% and have the workshop spell'd.
base is 1000/hr +90% = 1900 +200% = 5700...
By the clever use of 2 different spells, and the culture bonus
1 workshop now does the work of 5.7 of them.....

Since I keep my base @ 170%, my base in above senario is
is 1700 , so spell'd up like above output is 3.3 worth.
 
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