FA push towns must End! That's clear cheating!

[BrinDarby]

with just a total of 50 expansions, a Dwarven city can support
easily, 140 workshops, and 84 T1 marble. Adding in all the bldgs
ya can't get rid of.... barracks, Training grounds, MH, BH, Trader,
and Magic academy. ( using dwarven roads )

 

[Dadnaz]

This is why I've suggested "pacing buildings" for events and FAs. The FA requires using a fellowship building to make FA-widgets. The building can't be built ahead of time, and can't be built faster by someone in chapter 16 than it can in chapter 1, whether you have 1 workshop or 500. You can only have one Event-building, which produces X-widgets per time unit. Every spot on the path needs widgets and other things. You must use the widgets to level it to EventBuilding2, and you can't produce widget2 unless your event building is level 2. You need wdiget2 to upgrade to EventBuilding3, and can't produce Widget3 until you do.

I really like this idea. If FAs were like chapters and have their own settlement buildings, this would level the field a lot. Maybe the settlement may even have different buildings.
1. It won't be a city destruction event, since the settlements would be limited.
2. It doesn't matter the chapter, since the settlements could be tailored to every chapter.
3. "Push","Minion", "Shade" cities would be useless.

All I know for sure is that I lost a whole lot of interest in the FAs after they very clearly became a credit card war at the end for top rankings. I can actually understand why there may be folks out there who would stretch the rules to compete with that.

You are right, but this game is really about diamonds anyway. One thing that would be very nice is to have FA giving prizes for milestones, like the Spire or the tournament or regular events. By doing this, the credit card wars would still exist, but every FS participating in the FA could set their own goals and go for them, like the other events.

 

[defiantoneks]

Did I cheat for bracelets ???

if you did i wanna know how!

 

[BrinDarby]

if you did i wanna know how!

no, I did not, my city is just optimized for catering,
so I make alotta T1.

 

[defiantoneks]

my city is just optimized for catering,

i'm not sure if my cities are "optimized" for any one thing. i think they're fairly balanced. i fight most encounters, til i can't. and i found i've had to make a lot more space for seeds and mana and unurium and such. i do go heavy on the AWs too. feels like even tho they take up space, they provide so much in return i dont know how i'd function w/o them.

 

[Killy-]

No it is not 'just as detrimental'.
Please do not use this comparison because on the strength of it they are not equal at all in effect. In fact, they are so unequal in effect that a gamer pursuing the 'AW option' is actually disadvantaging themselves.
First, as mentioned, the 'farm cities' have a big effect on the outcome of the FA. The judgement of this is ongoing and it is not my point.
My point is that the presence or absence of one fully upgraded AW (say, lvl 30) makes a difference in the cost calculation of Spire or Tourney of only .09. This is a difference that does not make a difference, and it costs the gamer one teleport spell, which are a rare resource. So while the intent to 'game the rules' can be seen as manipulative, the outcome does not materially degrade the game, disenfranchise other players or benefit the instigator. Let it rest. Use other examples, if you must.

What is wrong with the example? Teleporters aren't that rare.

I would have more, if I wouldn't use them. If I could teleport 11 wonders away for the tournament I would have almost no wonderlvls left and almost only half the tournament costs left. I don't know what the average number of teleporters per spire is, but I would think I could do that every other tournament or so?

Personally I don't care that much, I am more curious if they are booting out active members to bring in the specialty towns. Do those players come back after the FA? Would you want to?

From my personal experience that is pretty easy. After the fs decided to play for rank 1 or top 3 or whatever, you just have to ask the players who aren't interested in the FA, if they would be willing to sit out for that time. All they are missing are the group rewards from one tournament and spire, but they don't have to play the FA. Actually that sounds like a great deal for me, even so I haven't done it so far (and I guess I would find a fs for that week, if I would trouble myself searching and lose even less).

We had that topic (cheating - FA accounts, yada yada yada) at least 10 times in the german forum and every time it is officially confirmed, that those alt accounts aren't cheating. Simalarly we have people that argued, that the new bagde-collecting is bad, because collecting every badge individual would be a skill and not a waste of hours of your lifetime... What I am trying to say is - I hope you have more luck with this topic and maybe we can finally get a change.

 

[mikeledo]

If someone wants to create an FA city, more power to them. We had a city that wanted to swap 3 of their best players for ours just for the FA. I asked my players, "Who wants to spend 2 weeks in another FS that does not get spire gold (we always get gold) and struggles to get 10 chests (we get about 17)? Shockingly, no one jumped up to leave. The problem with bringing in a ringer just for the FA, someone needs to leave and possibly lose out on FA prizes and collateral stuff. I see the swap as a headache unless you happen to be short a person at the time. And a wise man once said, "Anything worth having is worth cheating for."

 

[Gkyr]

What is wrong with the example? Teleporters aren't that rare.
View attachment 13771

If you teleported 11 AWs back-and-forth you would give yourself a cost advantage of approx. 1.0 in the cost equation, or equal to 1 less expansion than you currently have in your city.
Even a city with a larger than average war chest will have to wonder, "why am I doing this? And for what?"
Just because you have a boatload of teleports does not mean they aren't rare across the game.

 

[actualfantasy]

And just for my understanding. What is different now than it was 1 or 2 years ago with FS's building shanty towns to complete the 3 stages in hours and spend days cycling thru the pit?
I have a city that I stripped most all of it away and built w/s and T1's, because it was a city I had abandoned active playing. But my investment in that city and the diamonds still therein are mine and mine to do as I wish. If I am not breaking any game rules then what business is it of yours how I deck it out. Personally I find it more fun to participate in the FA this way and do not feel I am cheating anyone at all.

Nobody was booted out when I joined back up and if I stay or leave is up to me. If the FS was full I would have found another FS to party hard with.

One question, I am wondering whether this method is also used for events. Not just yourself but by others? I don't know why this is not considered cheating. Plus I do not understand why people want to play the game this way. Bragging rights are ---------!

 

[DeletedUser22644]

Not for me I just use it during FA and the craftsman mini game, that took about 12 sec to complete

 

[Killy-]

If you teleported 11 AWs back-and-forth you would give yourself a cost advantage of approx. 1.0 in the cost equation, or equal to 1 less expansion than you currently have in your city.
Even a city with a larger than average war chest will have to wonder, "why am I doing this? And for what?"
Just because you have a boatload of teleports does not mean they aren't rare across the game.

You might need a closer look at the formula. It would reduce my wonder factor from 2 down to 1, which halves the whole equation. I could offset this with more or less doubling my expansions, if you want to compare those things (for FA space or whatever). So I could teleport 11 wonders and place around 130 expansions (in my case) and would have the same costs, I have right now.

 

[Lady Dastardly]

@actualfantasy
My FS's are usually competitve in FA's so I strip my cities in this manner and build tons of lvl 1 WS and T1s. I do this for events as well, because I like to get to the locked daily quests as fast as I can so I coast the rest of the way though. I always take a look at the quests in advance of the event start, and add however many WS & T1's it will need. Events don't need nearly as many as an all out FA, only 15-20 of each usually, but you can get away with even fewer and still speed things up significantly. TomatoeHu's spreadsheets are particularly good for this, since they break down the quest requirements for you.

 

[BrinDarby]

@defiantoneks ,

This City is very balanced... lean & mean too...
makes more goods/week that it uses, and doesn't
run outta troops either....

3 CC & 8 relics per day, can boost V V in MA, and
makes 2xtra type troops per day, not trained normally.

It includes P.Manor & F.Ruins both with an xtra piece,
a full Moonestone set, room for 1 4x4 evolve of my choice,
and full 170% culture bonus ( no help need'd ).

 

[Darielle]

If you teleported 11 AWs back-and-forth you would give yourself a cost advantage of approx. 1.0 in the cost equation, or equal to 1 less expansion than you currently have in your city.
Even a city with a larger than average war chest will have to wonder, "why am I doing this? And for what?"
Just because you have a boatload of teleports does not mean they aren't rare across the game.

Have they changed things? AWs were never teleportable before.


Just checked ... they are still not teleportable.

 

[Huor]

It seems that alt accounts that are fa cities that move into the fellowships only during the event are pretty common. There's one in my neighborhood. Seems like too much work to me for a 2 hour egg timer.

 

[Tawneywild]

With about 36 hours left in the FA, for my account on Sinya, I realized our chances of making it through map 3 were slim and some of our members were counting on that 2nd Witty Racoon artifact - so I teleported most of my bigger goods buildings and miscellaneous items and built more things to see if I could help. I wish I'd done it sooner. Most likely, we are still going to be short as the coins are killing us.

Anyway, I don't consider that cheating and wished I'd thought to do it sooner.

As a former teacher, I used to tell my students you have to know the difference between when using "all your resources" is to your benefit (90% of the time), and when using outside resources is considered cheating by whatever company or entity is testing you.

The fellowship I'm in on Ceravyn is in the top 50. We are in the pit, but the top 10 is definitely out of our reach, even though we have active and interested players. I guess I always assumed the top fellowships had to use some diamonds, or most likely, horror of horrors, they all use those spreadsheets to assign badges. I'm okay with any of that (for them), though neither of those things are something I'm going to use.

The fellowship I'm in on Sinya Arda is a lot less active and still ranked 126. The only downside is not being able to get the ferris wheel (as I'm out and I really miss having one going) and for those members that needed that last artifact because we are stuck near the end of map 3.

I used to love it when I'd just completed a chapter right before an FA so I had a ton of room to build enough workshops to have dwarven brewery's badges not create a migraine. Now that I have a bigger city with longer chapters teleporting is going to be the only way to be useful to my fellowships.

Allocation of space and resources is the whole point of Elvenar. Not to disparage anyone's bragging rights but I'm thinking anyone ranking 25 or below is just in it for the artifacts and ferris wheel type goods - maybe fun, though this one hasn't seemed very fun map wise.

 

[Darielle]

With about 36 hours left in the FA, for my account on Sinya, I realized our chances of making it through map 3 were slim and some of our members were counting on that 2nd Witty Racoon artifact - so I teleported most of my bigger goods buildings and miscellaneous items and built more things to see if I could help. I wish I'd done it sooner. Most likely, we are still going to be short as the coins are killing us.

Anyway, I don't consider that cheating and wished I'd thought to do it sooner.

As a former teacher, I used to tell my students you have to know the difference between when using "all your resources" is to your benefit (90% of the time), and when using outside resources is considered cheating by whatever company or entity is testing you.

The fellowship I'm in on Ceravyn is in the top 50. We are in the pit, but the top 10 is definitely out of our reach, even though we have active and interested players. I guess I always assumed the top fellowships had to use some diamonds, or most likely, horror of horrors, they all use those spreadsheets to assign badges. I'm okay with any of that (for them), though neither of those things are something I'm going to use.

The fellowship I'm in on Sinya Arda is a lot less active and still ranked 126. The only downside is not being able to get the ferris wheel (as I'm out and I really miss having one going) and for those members that needed that last artifact because we are stuck near the end of map 3.

I used to love it when I'd just completed a chapter right before an FA so I had a ton of room to build enough workshops to have dwarven brewery's badges not create a migraine. Now that I have a bigger city with longer chapters teleporting is going to be the only way to be useful to my fellowships.

Allocation of space and resources is the whole point of Elvenar. Not to disparage anyone's bragging rights but I'm thinking anyone ranking 25 or below is just in it for the artifacts and ferris wheel type goods - maybe fun, though this one hasn't seemed very fun map wise.

We're not using a spreadsheet, haven't used diamonds (as far as I know) and we are currently number 9 in the FA with only 2/3 of our members participating. We voted for an "easy" FA this time, although a few members never do easy, lol. But it is possible. It just takes a whole lot of work and a few key people who are on at different times of the day, so they can keep things moving along.

And no ...I don't think it's cheating at all, and I do the same thing. I teleport nearly every factory I have (except the ones i need for bracelets) and a lot of other things too. I have no alt accounts on Sinya, so this is it and I make the most of it. Not cheating. Just working hard.

 

[crackie]

All I know for sure is that I lost a whole lot of interest in the FAs after they very clearly became a credit card war at the end for top rankings.

I used to think that too, but I don’t anymore. I also used to think you need really large late chapter cities to compete and I’ve also changed my mind on that as well. I have taken 3 different FS of varying levels of competence from FA obscurity to podium contenders. One was already moderately competitive, one was a FS where I was a temp guest (players I don’t even know), and one was a fresh FS from scratch. Now I think with some hand holding and guidance, a FS can do very well without spending diamonds. Each FS is also different. One strategy may work for one group but not another. You have to adapt with who you got in the group. There is more to being good at FA than making shantytowns. After all, one can have the largest FA spread known to man or elf, but if they aren’t around to drop a single badge, none of it matters.

I guess I always assumed the top fellowships had to use some diamonds, or most likely, horror of horrors, they all use those spreadsheets to assign badges. I'm okay with any of that (for them), though neither of those things are something I'm going to use.

This also isn’t true. Spreadsheets are like training wheels. Very useful if a FS is new to competitive FA and need some organization, but if your group knows what they are doing, it is not needed and/or can slow you down or even be counter-intuitive. A big downside of spreadsheet has always been mistake of micromanagement. A lot of people try to “assign” badges until all map checkpoints are accounted for and this can sometimes create more problems. For example, that guy making statues for you was in a storm and is out of power for the week. Wah wah. Your FS can’t get past any statues now bc you’ve put all your eggs into one basket.

All competitive FA groups know ranking is duked out in the Pit. All of them can waltz through all 3 paths on all 3 maps. They make badges with the Pit in mind from the start, not to meet map requirements, meaning all badges are made with intent that they are “excess” for the Pit. Therefore, a spreadsheet is also not needed because you are not worried about the maps. I do use a spreadsheet for my EN group, but not for inventory tracking. We have international competition amongst ourselves so I am tracking badges dumped for fun. A spreadsheet is also useless in my EN group bc we have people everywhere around the globe. By the time US wakes up, it’s 5+hrs behind Europe reporting their numbers and another 3hrs for west coast to wake. None of those numbers are going to be accurate or useful with such long lag gaps.

Like I’ve said earlier, FA strategy will differ from group to group. My Ceravyn FS does 19 chests and Gold Spire. There are a lot of late chapter players. We won’t get stuck on ghosts, and a lot of other badges like witch hats come with the territory of just hitting tourney super hard instead of relying on your MA to craft. My EN FS is much younger and much smaller. Most do not have a high level Timewarp to delay more tourney rounds for FAs. We have to craft more badges manually. In both cases though, Gold FS also will net you I think 10x Druids per player so that is 250 Druids not needed to be crafted!

So in a sense, a competitive FA group doesn’t need to plan for FAs, but they are also sorta always planning for FAs year-round. You are always looking for buildings that help with badges or doing things like not collecting your MA, which most people don’t do, don’t have the foresight to do, or can’t afford to do. Being good at all aspects of the game will always make you more badges. Since my EN group is much smaller, we have to be even better at this year round FA preparedness. Like every group, not everyone loves FAs there, but the majority will be all hands on deck if the group votes to go for it so good attitude goes a long way. This, above all else, is what makes the biggest difference. My EN group can output almost as many points as my big US FS despite the disadvantages already stated. My newest FS for my baby city is full of late chapter players but they seem to not care for FA so it’s very strange for me to do FA at such a “slow” pace, even though they are still finishing in the top 20s it looks like.

 

[Dadnaz]

This is the final score for the FA. I erased any names, so it won't get edited.
If it this can't show that 3 swap cities can destroy the competitive aspect of the FA, I don't know what can. Look at the difference between the first place and all the others. I'm closing my posts on this topic. This will probably never get to Inno and even if it does, I don't think they will do anything about it and that's that.

 

[Farinx]

This is the final score for the FA. I erased any names, so it won't get edited.
If it this can't show that 3 swap cities can destroy the competitive aspect of the FA, I don't know what can. Look at the difference between the first place and all the others. I'm closing my posts on this topic. This will probably never get to Inno and even if it does, I don't think they will do anything about it and that's that.

As a member of the team in question, I would say mainly that this apparent blowout is also largely attributed to the team which has gotten 1st place every other time for the past many FA's decided not to push this time. As we have come in 2nd place behind them every FA this year, we have continued to up our organization and strategy, and with each FA both teams have increased their final score by roughly 10,000 pts per FA (Last FA we lost 93,600 to 91,750).

As someone on this server Dadnaz, I would expect you to be aware of this contextual setup and I find it disingenuous for you to now post the apparent large blow-out with no context. This is our first win in FA and I am EXTREMELY proud of all of our members who coordinated, planned, and strategized together. This victory is not a result of 1 or 5 individuals, but All of us. I hope you can find some closure in that. We do have several members who are deeply offended by statements made here as they undermine the great efforts and sacrifices they have made.

I do not plan to post again on this thread, but I felt it important to provide adequate context.