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    Your Elvenar Team

Fair trade and fellowships

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
I'm questioning the zero profit standard community wide.

It's frowned upon by many FS because it's not really possible for both people in a trade to profit* and you're kind of supposed to be a team.
As for the community at large, other than some insignificant bragging rights for weekly tournament scores, there is no PvP in this game so the same applies-- neighbors aren't generally treated as rivals that we try to squeeze an extra penny from but rather friends with whom a mutually beneficial trade is enjoyed.

*Another way to look at it is that the game has a built-in profit for every 1:1 trade. Since your city gets a production boost to marble, every time you trade your marble for planks you are getting far more planks than you could make yourself in the same time/space. Profit for everyone.

True, some rare players like to go for additional profit, but it's totally unnecessary in this game and it can actually set you back:
E.G. @BrinDarby above has been unable to join a 10-chest, Gold spire FS for over a year due to his undesirable trade practices despite completing the spire each week and averaging 3,000 each tournament :oops:
Gaining a few extra goods will likely never balance out against the lost thousands of :diamond: Diamonds:diamond: (and other spire rewards)
 

Diellashana

Member
It's been a few more days. I've come to accept fair trade. My experience in trading has been in open markets like in many popular MMOs. Buy low, sell high. So coming here is a paradigm shift.

Anywhere you go the developer sets base rules but the real game is in the community. If I want to multiply some currency I can go to any other game. I don't intend to upset the balance here.

Yes I was talking tier 1 trades. I was beginning to question why I had manufactories at all since my goods were just multiplying much much faster than I could significantly produce them (chapter 1 to 2). Fair trade is part of this games community culture. I can accept that now.

When I realized I was wrong it was shocking. I was addicted to the goods.
 

Nerwa

Well-Known Member
Just to clear up something: @BrinDarby only does "for-profit" trades with non-FS members (to see what the market will bear, et cetera). Within an FS Brin is a 2- and 3-star trader, picking up trades several times daily. His stockpiles make for an excellent team reserve supply, and he is especially generous with new players.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - Loquacious One
Nobody who knows me will be surprised that I'm weighing in on this subject. I'll try to keep it brief.

What is a trade? An exchange of X for Y. I have X and you Y. I value X at some level, and you value Y. If my offer of X at the value I hold for it meets your desire for X and your offer of Y meets my needs, the trade is fair. Fairness is a personal measure, not a community one. The community wants to tell everyone what "fair" means, but in the end the value of the thing resides in the one who values it -- and that's the two engaged in the trade, and them alone.

The community wants to have an "objective" standard by which trades are judged. In having this standard though, the condemn those who don't hold that standard -- the value the community holds in the goods. In other words, the community says a certain number of X is worth a certain number of Y. this might be generally true, but circumstances exist where the value of X and Y are not equal. Like a quest in which you need 10,000 of something and don't have it but want to get the quest done NOW! You might offer 20000 of Y to get the 10000 of X. Should the community condemn you for the circumstances you are in? Should they say to you, "if you don't wait for your 1:1 trade to be taken or make arrangements with somebody to take your unfair trade, we'll condemn you and not play with you." As was noted by one poster, you get a "bad rep." But the "bad rep" is not because you didn't value your goods, but because you didn't value them the way they said you should.

In the long run community rules should benefit the community. Forcing players to adapt to a set of measurements that are questionable at best, and down right destructive in some cases, is not, in my mind, the heart of fairness. I'm for the freedom to value things as YOU value them.

Finally, there are those who will just choose to continue condemning those who don't feel about their goods in the "right" manner. I think that's pretty sad and not in keeping with letting people play as they wish. That they can choose to play that way is, of course, their choice, but I wish they wouldn't. I wish they'd just let everyone trade what they will for what they think it's worth. Open Trades.

AJ

@SoggyShorts and @BrinDarby can join my Open Trades fs any time he wants. We are 10 chest and heading to the gold. If your on K, BrinDarby, just let me know. the doors always open. And yes, we aren't top 10, but we are top 25 and that's not too bad.

AJ
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
@ajqtrz ,
Of my 3 worlds, only Khelonar do I trade for profit currently,
standard rate is +15% ( 10000 : 11420 ). I am in a FS that allows
free trade. Thanks for the offer but its been a long slog staying
in this FS @ times, and finally we are hitting Silver consistently
and we have been getting 10 chests for awhile...
So thanks for the generous offer, Aj ....

I too like lyapo1 am a horder ... 1st Bank of Brin ( to my FS )

After see'n this beat to death for months/months, its clear that
the biggest hangup is the fact Fellowships are extending a rule
to all 3 types of goods ..... Standard basic , Sentient, & Ascended.
When infact there should be 3 sets of rules, 1 for each ....
The next biggest hangup is +50% trader fee, which instantly adds
unfairness to most trades. Finally there is actual "cost-to-produce",
which is also not equal between players.

In the long run community rules should benefit the community. Forcing players to adapt to a set of measurements that are questionable at best, and down right destructive in some cases, is not, in my mind, the heart of fairness.
Bingo !!!! and bully'n players like @Diellashana into conforming.... IS the
very definition of unfairness.

Trade amounts are 1000 & 1100 ..... players A & B are trading ......
is this a fair trade ?????
According to ppl like Soggy .... ?? well, Soggy would say
if the deal is 1100:1000 (same tier) its a fair trade.......
yet if its 1000:1100 then its not.... yet its the SAME TRADE !!!!!
Player A is always giving 1000 and Player B is always getting 1100.
Either thats a fair trade or it isn't ( Either way ). You cannot assign
unfairness depending on the poster... The only difference is :
the poster is OK with the unfairness to themselves, that certainly
doesn't magically make it "fair" .

Like a quest in which you need 10,000 of something and don't have it but want to get the quest done NOW!
Sure you can offer the std 10% and put up 11000 : 10000 and wait ....
OR , if you have a neighbor that always has that up at 10000 : 11000 ... you don't wait.
( and you really apriciate that neighbor that always has those deals up , ones that
you'd list anyway from your end but don't have to, with them around )
No, I don't reccomend doing your weekly rebalancing constantly losing % in that case.

Personally, the Community should be balanced between greed and convience. The game
allows 1:8 (or 8:1) ( thats 700% xtra, just like max boost is ). It also should adhear to basic
fairness, taking into account the trading fee. Therefore anything +/- 50% should be the
boundry for "excessive". Shocker, thats exactly what worst case is a 1* trade.
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
It's been a few more days. I've come to accept fair trade. My experience in trading has been in open markets like in many popular MMOs. Buy low, sell high. So coming here is a paradigm shift.

Anywhere you go the developer sets base rules but the real game is in the community. If I want to multiply some currency I can go to any other game. I don't intend to upset the balance here.

Yes I was talking tier 1 trades. I was beginning to question why I had manufactories at all since my goods were just multiplying much much faster than I could significantly produce them (chapter 1 to 2). Fair trade is part of this games community culture. I can accept that now.

When I realized I was wrong it was shocking. I was addicted to the goods.

Good you came to that decision early, and I promise you it will benefit you in the long run.

I have a neighbor who is becoming a pariah in the neighborhood. He consistently offers zero star trades. I thought at first that he was new and didn't know better, so my thoughts were a bit more charitable than some of my neighbors'. I even thought of writing to him and developing a rappoire to help suggest a better course, until I realized the truth. Although he is not truly experienced, he is not new. He's got around 65000 points and worse, he's the archmage of a group of a couple dozen new players with much lower scores than himself. What he's teaching them by example really disturbs me, because he's hurting his own team members. And his trades don't leave the board for days and days. He isn't trying to provide goods to people who want them no matter how expensive. The only thing he is doing is hoping for misclicks, when someone's computer screen messes up or they accidentally click too fast and get his. That's the worst kind of shady ... when you are hoping that people will make a mistake so you can profit from it. My neighbors are normally careful, (some of them, thankfully, migrated with me from the old neighborhood during the great migration of a few weeks back) but the grumbling I hear from them is, well, not very nice to say the least (particularly one who misclicked).

I wish more players came to the forum, as you did. They could really do themselves a tremendous favor if they did. I know it will still be hard for the next few weeks until you have a circle of good neighbors to help you, (and I hope you've found a good fellowship, too), but you've really got a step up from others who don't come here. I've learned so much here in the past couple of years; I sometimes wonder how people can stick with the game without coming to the forum. In any case, bravo and best of luck to you!
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
@ajqtrz ,

Bingo !!!! and bully'n players like @Diellashana into conforming.... IS the
very definition of unfairness.

I don't think anyone bullied Diellashana, and the point is NOT whether you are technically right or wrong. The point is how a player wants to be perceived by other players, their neighbors and their fellowship members. There will always be players who agree with you Brin. But you have to admit, you have a certain reputation here on the board, one that says "I'm out for numero uno." Now, I realize that all of us are very fond of getting ahead and want to help ourselves. But most of us want to see our teams and neighbors benefit along with us, and wouldn't think of taking advantage of them unfairly. I'd say that Elvenar has a higher percentage of altruism and a lesser percentage of cut throat market tactics than most games do ... more so than the world in general does. I think you do well in the world in general. But Elvenar attracts people who are a bit different, more fair-minded than that, in general, and those are the very people who are your neighbors, fellowship members, and forum members. If Diellashana wanted to have the kind of reputation that you've cultivated here in the forum, Brin, then she could. But I don't think she does. I think she wants to be like most of us, with a higher sense of camaraderie and good will. That's just my impression of her so far.

I hope that doesn't sound like an insult, because it isn't. You're probably the kind of person someone would want in their group if they were in a cutthroat game that needed a good protector. You'd be out for numero uno for your group, too (as someone mentioned earlier that you are generous with your fellowship). In a game like that, I'd probably get eaten. That's why I'm here. :)
 

Killy-

Well-Known Member
Trade amounts are 1000 & 1100 ..... players A & B are trading ......
is this a fair trade ?????
According to ppl like Soggy .... ?? well, Soggy would say
if the deal is 1100:1000 (same tier) its a fair trade.......
yet if its 1000:1100 then its not.... yet its the SAME TRADE !!!!!

Scenario 1: I invite you to dinner because I am in a good mood - how nice and you may accept or not.
Scenario 2: You demand that I pay the bill - wtf is wrong with you?
I might ending up paying in both cases but that doesn't make them the same.

That said, I think everyone can post whatever trade he or she likes. All offers are just options and if I don't like them, then I post my own offer. I don't get why players are getting so mad about "unfair" offers. If I really need a good to finish the spire and I have almost no time left, I might take a 1:2 trade. I am not thrilled about it, but I am happy that at least that offer was there.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - Loquacious One
The idea that the community has rules is true. I used to teach group dynamics at the UofC-Davis. In our discussions of group norms we ask the questions: "are they always right?", and "how do you change them?"

First, it's pretty obvious group norms are not always right. WWII, slavery and a bunch of other things show that sometimes the group can get it wrong. The more interesting question is: "how do you change it?"

My experience is that, in general, it's pretty darn tough. Most people go along to get along. And once they've made that commitment they tend to defend to the death the norm, whatever it is. Again, you see in the Civil War even those who didn't think slavery was right fighting to the death to defend it! I just red McPherson's book on why the soldiers fight and found that many of them just went along with the social norms even when they thought those norms wrong.

In the end, we all want to fit in. So we sometimes compromise. My problem with the compromise is that sometimes great pressure is brought to bear...and the threat of sanctions...to get people to conform. It is patently obvious to me that if you say to someone, "If you do that your reputation will suffer and some people will think so low of you that they shun you" is an implied threat. Not by the person saying it, necessarily, but by the commitment to the group norms. It is, "threats or pressure to conform or to suffer negative consequences for not doing so" -- one of the definitions I've seen of "bullying."

In the end, there is no need to threaten anybody. There is no need to imply "it's how it is done so go along to get along." A frank and open discussion with the person on the merits of the rules should be enough -- unless the reasons are weaker than the reasons for abandoning the rule. It's my opinion, and a few others, that the regulation of trades by social shaming and implied threats, is not a friendly environment, and thus, not a good posture to take in this community.

Finally, if you don't like someone's play style, feel free to shun them. But don't advertise that everyone should shun them. That's how you bring social pressure to bear -- pretending you speak for the group, when, in fact, you only know a relatively few members.

So let's move to open trading. You can ignore anybody you don't like, just don't make your dislike the norm for everybody and then enforce it with unhelpful rules.

AJ
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Soggy would say
if the deal is 1100:1000 (same tier) its a fair trade.......
yet if its 1000:1100 then its not.... yet its the SAME TRADE !!!!!
...
You cannot assign
unfairness depending on the poster... The only difference is :
the poster is OK with the unfairness to themselves, that certainly
doesn't magically make it "fair" .
Of course it's not the same thing if someone offers you extra or if you ask for extra.
There is a huge difference between one person in a trade being generous vs one being greedy even if the numbers are the same.
Surely you've been in the world?

Since you (like AJ) have an aneurysm when someone uses the word "fair" , try I'll another one:

There are desirable offers and undesirable ones. There is a consensus that anything equal to or greater than 1:1 as an offer is desirable, other, lower ratios are generally seen as profiteering and not in line with the cooperative nature of the game.
bully'n players like @Diellashana into conforming.... IS the
very definition of unfairness.
Is it though? I mean everyone adhering to the same set of principles seems pretty fair to me. :rolleyes:
Besides, it's not bullying to lay out the facts.
I told you over a year ago that your undesirable trade practices would likely prevent you from getting into a top FS despite other qualifications, and that would cost you 100s of dollars worth of diamonds. Was that bullying? Considering that I was right, I think it was rather good advice.
 
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Iyapo1

Well-Known Member
Turning a blind eye to reality does not have any impact on reality. The reality is players who consistently offer 1 star trades or lower will be banned from many top Fellowships and avoided in the trader. Saying you dont like it does not change it.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Sadly due to Brin's multiple quotes, I got sucked into clicking the "Show ignored content" button so here goes:
First, it's pretty obvious group norms are not always right. WWII, slavery and a bunch of other things show that sometimes the group can get it wrong
...
It is patently obvious to me that if you say to someone, "If you do that your reputation will suffer and some people will think so low of you that they shun you" is an implied threat. Not by the person saying it, necessarily, but by the commitment to the group norms. It is, "threats or pressure to conform or to suffer negative consequences for not doing so" -- one of the definitions I've seen of "bullying."
You conveniently leave out that the group can also get things right: We shun people because of theft, assault, pedophilia, and murder-- should we stop bullying those people too?
Finally, if you don't like someone's play style, feel free to shun them. But don't advertise that everyone should shun them. That's how you bring social pressure to bear -- pretending you speak for the group, when, in fact, you only know a relatively few members.
More hypocrisy (shocker) Telling others what they can and can't do while explaining that we shouldn't tell others what to do.

There is nothing inherently wrong with "conforming" or advising others of the benefits.
Context matters, and in this case the majority seems to favor certain trading practices which ultimately benefit everyone by creating a cooperative environment. This effect is more easily achieved by having more players participate in desirable trading practices, so advertising and advising such actions is both self-serving and beneficial to the community as a whole.
As for your assumption that we all speak for relatively few members(and the implication that you speak for more?), that doesn't seem to hold up when you look at the rather overwhelming evidence from the FS overviews on each server.
 
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Sir Squirrel

Artist EXTRAORDINAIRE and Buddy Fan Club member
OMG this topic gets crazy. Early chapter players have a tough time building goods (little space and trader fees) and are usually helped by their FS because we all have been there and understand this. I have no problem with players posting whatever trades they wish, but I don't see the need to post undesirable trades. When I was new to the game I posted 2 star trades and my goods still grew. Once my city was established around chapter 5 or 6 I started to give extra on my trades (3 star trades) and still my goods grew. It is fairly easy to make more then enough goods to build a stockpile while offering 3 star trades, so I don't understand why players think they have to post 1 star trades to get ahead. As others have already said, most of us would prefer to see 3 star trades in the trader (even those that post 1 star trades like to take 3 star trades). It is nice to get a deal that is offered by another player, but not so nice to have to pay a premium for goods. It is more about sharing and caring then it is about fairness and political correctness. In my opinion anyway!
 
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Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
OMG this topic gets crazy. Early chapter players have a tough time building goods (little space and trader fees) and are usually helped by their FS because we all have been there and understand this. I have no problem with players posting whatever trades they wish, but I don't see the need to post undesirable trades. When I was new to the game I posted 2 star trades and my goods still grew. Once my city was established around chapter 5 or 6 I started to give extra on my trades (3 star trades) and still my goods grew. It is fairly easy to make more then enough goods to build a stockpile while offering 3 star trades, so I don't understand why players think they have to post 1 star trades to get ahead. As others have already said, most of us would prefer to see 3 star trades in the trader (even those that post 1 star trades like to take 3 star trades). It is nice to get a deal that is offered by another player, but not so nice to have to pay a premium for goods. It is more about sharing and caring then it is about fairness and political correctness. In my opinion anyway!

I share that optinion. Since I started this game, I have offered three star goods for my boosted goods (I only built boosted factories, never nonboosts, and I built quite a few of them to make sure I always had plenty to trade.) The three stars are always snapped up quickly, even on items that seem to be in abundance in the trader. I stockpile a good amount of items, and everyone is happy. There just isn't a point to trying to put the screws on others who are in a bind for goods or who accidentally click your unfair trades. It really isn't needed. And the harm done to your long term persona must be factored into the cost as well. No one likes to think of themselves as a pariah, so they don't. They merely get angry and resent others who consider them a pariah. Why initiate all that grief with zero or one star trades, when you can get ahead much better by building a lot of your boosted goods and making great trades? It just seems like it would be in the trader's best interest as well as in the interest of trading partners.

Of course, nowadays, there are venture capitalists who don't give a dang about long term relationships. All they want is to dominate the "game," take every dime they can and then leave their trash behind as they move on. That's the trouble with the world today ... too many venture capitalists.

(And I'm sure someone is going to come on and try to condescendingly "instruct" me on venture capitalism ... wait for it.)
 

Henroo

Oh Wise One
1 aspect of 1 star trades that never seems to get discussed much is how many times they are taken by mistake. Here's a personal example: last year a ch 15 player in my Winy FS decided to retire from Elvenar. Before doing so he offered to give away all goods to FS members. The way we did this was by posting uneven trades and wait for him to log on and accept them. He was only logging on every few days and this went on for about 2 weeks. The most uneven trade the game will let you post is a 1-8 ratio and during this 2 week period I had them sitting in the trader. Fair size ones also, I was offering 50K and asking for 400K.

On 3 different occasions I had neighbors take these 0 star trades. I figured that the trades were so bad it had to be a mistake, so in each case I messaged them after the fact. I asked if it was a mistake and offered to accept the same trade in reverse. Which would undo it and give them their goods back. Never heard back from 1 person. The 2nd wrote back that it was a mistake, but said they were not worried about the goods. The 3rd neighbor said it was a mistake and that they needed the goods back, so we arranged a reverse trade. So in 2 out of 3 cases, it is confirmed that the person accepting a 0 star trade did not mean to do so. I still suspect the 3rd case was a mistake, but can't prove it.
 

Zoof

Well-Known Member
So long as I was given the technical means to filter out trade offerings based on trade ratio, I'd be much more in favor of normalizing wider deviances from the typical 1:1 ratio, or whatever is Inno's equivalent for cross-tier trading. As it is, I'd rather not want to treat my trader like a minefield.

So, while playing *that* particular game is out, I've come to enjoy other things about trading which the fellowship I belong to sometimes lets me indulge in. Things such as finding out how balanced my neighborhood is by eating up every trade that passes through, or figuring out whether I can drown my local community in silk. Those are the most fun, methinks.

EDIT: The result of the balancing thing is still ongoing, though I did have to pass on some of the 100k trades because my borrowed stockpile isn't *that* deep. And the silk? I bottomed out after 2 days after having been given about 2m
EDIT2: Having just read the actual original post, I must state that I'm fairly happy sitting around and existing for balancing the goods. I'm also a ch 7 city, so idk how my attitude on that may change when decaying goods comes into play
 
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ajqtrz

Chef - Loquacious One
Solid AJ move: a not-so-subtle association of his opponents with slave owners and nazis? Nice manipulation.

Sadly, it's difficult to put forth examples of where the group gets it wrong which are not extreme. It seems in most situations if you use what you consider a reasonable example, somebody takes issue with it and you get side tracked onto the question of if the society got it wrong or not. I picked these two exactly because I doubt very much anybody would disagree that the social norms in those societies didn't get it wrong. As for the association of what goes on here with nazi and slave owners, I certainly didn't mean it that way. Necessity sometimes traps you into a no win situation.

You conveniently leave out that the group can also get things right: We shun people because of theft, assault, pedophilia, and murder-- should we stop bullying those people too?
(see how I made an AJ argument? Now your side is that of thieving murderous pedos)

Actually, you almost got it right. But we don't bully those people, do we? We punish them in a court of law. In other words, we have legal and formal authorities for dealing with those types of people. We don't elect ourselves to do it and then claim we represent everybody. The authority to punish for the informal norms of the group are granted by the group. My argument is that we shouldn't punish those who promote and engage in open trading and that the norms are not cooperative at all, but just the opposite.

More AJ hypocrisy (shocker) Telling others what they can and can't do while explaining that we shouldn't tell others what to do.

I'm not sure expressing what I would like you to do is the same as expressing what I would like you to do and then implying repercussions for you not doing it. The first is giving you a choice. The second adds punishment if you decide to do other than I say. Unless I'm the legal authority in the matter, the second is bullying.

More to the point, perhaps, is the simple question of identifying you interlocutor as a hypocrite. Let's ask the question and see if that makes any logical sense. Suppose I preach you shouldn't steal. If I did and then went and stole, you'd say I was a hypocrite, right? Does that mean you should steal? My failure has no bearing on the fact that stealing is wrong. How would my being a hypocrite make my argument against stealing any less sound (or more)? Calling somebody a name by claiming their behavior is in that category, is an attack on the person...it's called an ad hominem fallacy. You just committed it.


There is nothing inherently wrong with "conforming" or advising others of the benefits.
Context matters, and in this case the majority seems to favor certain trading practices which ultimately benefit everyone by creating a cooperative environment. This effect is more easily achieved by having more players participate in desirable trading practices, so advertising and advising such actions is both self-serving and beneficial to the community as a whole.
As for your baseless assumption that we all speak for relatively few members(and the implication that you speak for more?), that doesn't seem to hold up when you look at the rather overwhelming evidence from the FS overviews on each server.

When you say "the majority seems to favor certain trading practices" you are right. That is an ad populum fallacy. Just because they are the majority (and maybe they are), doesn't mean they are right. My argument is that the majority (if they are the majority) had gotten it wrong. Thus, we need to deal with the effect the norms and ask if they really are providing cooperation or if they aren't more coercive.

What is cooperation? You come to the trade board and see some trades you wish to take. You take them. That is cooperation. I go to the trade boards and post trades I want to make. That, too, is cooperation. No one is making us do what we do, we do it to interact positively with other players. If a transaction is taken, the taker is cooperating. If it's offered, it's offered expecting somebody will cooperate and take it.

Now there are those who will post to make a profit. Is that any worse than offering a profit with a 3 star trade? Brin Darby had a point when he said the "imbalance" is there no matter who offers the trade. Yes, the one posting the 3 star trade is aware of the "imbalance" (or should be) and is willing to take the "unfair" part of it. On the other hand, the one offering the zero star trade is also aware of the "imbalance." But since nobody is forced to take that trade, what does it matter? If they take the trade on purpose they are saying the "imbalance" is acceptable. If they take it on accident, they need to learn better game skills, that is all.

Of course there are those who feel that "profit" is a dirty word. Unfortunately for them, the game allows profit so it's doubtful the devs saw profit as a negative -- they run a "for-profit" company so it would be really strange if they had an negative feeling about profit.

So what is the problem? Transactions are cooperative since nobody is being forced. I look at trades and sometimes, even 3 star ones get rejected. Why? Because I don't need the goods...they aren't as valuable to me at that moment as the goods I would have to give for them.

And you are right. Conformity or not, should not be the issue. But using social pressure by threatening expulsion from the fs (or encouraging others to block someone) is forcing social conformity -- and that is not cooperation at all.

In the end it's about explaining the benefits of the norms and why those benefits out weigh the costs of those norms. If you don't don't resort to ad populum and ad hominem fallacies we'll get a lot farther, don't you think?

Back to the shunned ignore list with you, and yes, this is an advertisement that others should do the same. ;)

It's really too bad that's your first choice when you disagree with me. You don't like my rhetoric, and that's okay, Obviously, I don't give up easily, and I'm sure that gets a lot of people mad. Usually, in groups, when the high status persons in the group speak everybody else is expected to follow. You have spoken, but I haven't followed. That's a bit if a negative for me. But it is also a fallacy to say that just because you, as a high status member, are right because yous say you are right. In any case, I don't let people use ad populum and ad hominem fallacies as arguments.

Even if, as has been claimed, you are just telling the one breaking the rules what is going to happen out of kindness, If push and support the very rules they are breaking, you can't pretend that you aren't part of the coercion. You are the mouthpiece and no matter how gently or kindly you tell the other player not to break the norms, you are using social pressure to enforce them.

Finally, if there is anyone who really wants to take on explaining how forcing people to act a certain way is "cooperation," or contributes to a "more cooperative" environment, I'd like to hear it.

@Sir Squirrel I was concerned that you were forced to pay a premium for some goods. How did the person force you? Did they come to your house and hold a gun to your head? I'm being knowingly facetious. You took the trades because you valued the goods received high enough that you were willing to give the goods for them. It was your choice. You may have disliked that you were paying more than you thought you should, but that's the problem. You weren't paying more than the goods were worth in your situation, because you paid for them. Your situation changed their value in your eyes enough to warrant the trade. That's all I'm asking, in the long run, is for people to be able to value their own goods however they wish without the social constraints of the star system and the star policing policies.

Thanks for listening.

AJ
 
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BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
But you have to admit, you have a certain reputation here on the board, one that says "I'm out for numero uno."
Within an FS Brin is a 2- and 3-star trader, picking up trades several times daily. His stockpiles make for an excellent team reserve supply, and he is especially generous with new players.
You see @Darielle , your comment couldn't be further from the actual truth.
Several times a day ?? more like several times an hour ( for 14-18 hrs a day )

Back to the shunned ignore list with you, and yes, this is an advertisement that others should do the same.
^^ thats an advertizement that 1 group around here really is bully'n others into thier views.

I'm not out for #1, unless my Fellowship is #1... all for 1 and 1 for all ( within the FS )
I do believe the devs didn't spend hundreds of hours coding a trading system,
for that very system not be an ingame economy. Having it co-opted into nothing
more than a forced swap system is disrespectfull to the Devs, Elvenar, and the playerbase.

Untill trade itself is "fair" to everyone, there can be no true 1:1 anyway !!!!!

The only thing thats constant is ..... Change

Resistance really is futal, change will occur ... just watch out for that boomerang effect.
Ohh you'll get what you ask'd for .... just not how you ask'd for it.
 
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