Feedback please regarding the new orc limitation

[DeletedUser43]

edit: It is not allowed for anyone to post anything to the beta forum from other forums, so the entire reason for this thread is now moot. I am terribly sorry. I cannot pass any of your posts along.


This was posted on the beta forums as a question and I will link them to our thread here they can see our replies. Here is the link to their thread: https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/inde...eeded-after-10th-provinces-circle.5368/page-5



@ag123 started the thread by asking why the Orcs are needed after the 10th province. Please allow me to explain the reasoning behind those changes. We have to start with emphasizing the need to have perfect balancing in the game: a game that is not properly balanced is no fun to play, after all, and it is our goal to make our games fun to play. We also want to keep our game interesting in the long-term: variations in e.g. the scouting costs help with that (it would not be fun to pay the same resources over and over again until the end of times, after all). With these two problems in mind we decided that we needed to make some changes here: we want to add variety, and we want to make sure that progress on the world map is actually still fun and challenging for you when you progress further into the game.

We realize that implementing this change now is not perfect. In a perfect world, it would have been done this way from the very start, so that we would not introduce it as a new "rule" or "blocker", but rather as something that would "guide" you through your game in the same way that good costs were introduced in the very early game (that is: as a new player, you cannot yet produce marble/planks/steel yet, but they do appear on the world map as negotiation costs). Still, we believe it is very important for the game as a whole to make sure that it's not possible for players to be too far apart, so to say. It would be impossible to design a challenging experience for someone who has only scouted 10 provinces and someone who scouted 300, but who are at the exact same point in the research tree: think about things like the dificulty of battles which are based on the amount of provinces you have already discovered, but which are also greatly influenced by the technologies you have unlocked, such as squad size upgrades and better units.

We are interested in improving on this, as with everything, but we are looking for a way where we can both satisfy your needs, as well as the balancing needs of the game. For that, we are looking for some very specific feedback on this: how is it that you are affected by this problem? What is the source? We believe this could have several causes - we realize that it can be a mixture of multiple, or maybe we missed something entirely. Anyways, the options we thought of are:

1. you have already scouted all 222 possible provinces for which you do not require Orcs (everything up to and including ring 9), because of various reasons, such as a way to use your resources or a need for further city expansions, and you ended up at distance 10 or further because you do not have distance 9 or lower provinces left to resolve;
2. you have scouted in a specific direction because you are looking for specific provinces because you need those Relics to boost your production, and you ended up at distance 10 or higher that way, but you still have provinces of distance 9 or lower left;
3. you have scouted in a specific direction because you were looking to discover certain players (e.g. to have them as trade partners and/or to give them neighborly help), and this took to you distance 10 provinces or further; or
   
4. something else that we don't know.

It would help us a great deal in finding possible solutions and considering our options if you could let us know why you are stuck on the world map. Is it for one of the reasons above? Or is it something else? Please let us know why, especially in the last case.

Thanks again so much for your feedback so far, and we hope to read a great deal more after this post as well! We are very much looking forward to your opinions.

 

[DeletedUser1831]

I have scouted out further because Dwarves is fairly resource-intensive (at least compared to other chapters). I have been using those relics to boost my production, and I have very few provinces left that don't require orcs. I enjoyed a mix of fighting and negotiating, but am now stuck halfway through Dwarves because I no longer have that option, and my fighters are unable to compete in many instances - and I simply refuse to be *required* to fight all the time, since that is not what I'm here for.

 

[DeletedUser]

I read this post on the Beta thread & actually thought about starting a game there just so I could comment on it, so thanks for sharing it here so I don't need to! LOL!

In regards to the issues listed, (1, 2 & 3 or unknown), 1 & 3 fit my game play. I can't recall quite when I started playing, although it's been 6+ months now. I play regularly, so yes, I scouted a lot to use up resources & to get expansions (I have also bought a couple of expansions). I also am located in an area of the Winyandor map that is very sparsely populated, even more so since the last big purge.

I have 3 neighbors out of perhaps 20 cities that still exist in my scouted provinces who click on me a few times a week and quite a lot of gold mines. As I learned how to play this game, I started scouting towards big cities/neighbors early on. However, as I played on, I evened out my rings around the city so that I am relatively equal without one side being significantly farther. To the west of my city, there is NO ONE past the 13th ring, and there has not been for a very long time. No one to the NW of me either past the 11th-ish ring.

Still, we believe it is very important for the game as a whole to make sure that it's not possible for players to be too far apart, so to say. It would be impossible to design a challenging experience for someone who has only scouted 10 provinces and someone who scouted 300, but who are at the exact same point in the research tree: think about things like the dificulty of battles which are based on the amount of provinces you have already discovered, but which are also greatly influenced by the technologies you have unlocked, such as squad size upgrades and better units.

I do not know that it qualifies as a #4 for the list, but I think the quote above demonstrates something that I think is missed about some of the players of this game, at least for me. I do not really play this game because it challenges me, although it's true that I can't always win every fight the first time I try, and that I've got to get creative to figure out how to fit all the things I need/want in my city. While I get the satisfaction of upgrading buildings or, expanding my city, most of the game is mouse clicking & some things will happen whether I do anything or not. KP is on a timer, neighbor visits can happen & I can earn money from my residences just by waiting.

There have been discussions & definitions of the KIND of players who play city-style games, and whether I fit the descriptions or not doesn't matter to me. But I like exploring the map because it allows me to make visual progress, it allows me to be more social within the game as I discover new cities, have new trade partners, exchange messages or become neighbors who regularly visit each other.

I do not actually agree that players shouldn't be "too far apart". I've said before that someone who invests the time & effort in playing regularly SHOULD be farther ahead, in many measureable ways. Even if I have scouted out farther than I may be "qualified to", I do bump up against natural "caps" like the squad size, troops I can deploy to fight, or even the amount of goods that I can spend. If a far off province requires 5K of a certain good, I can't negotiate it unless I make it or trade for it. I can't win the fight if I don't have the right kind of troops or unless I'm a very good fighter.

But - I can still TRY for those things - I can build more factories & find a way to squeeze them in if that's my choice. I can try to fight a battle one way & if I lose, I can train more troops and try another strategy. My point though, is that I have options. To me, this is what makes the game interesting. If I want to scout so far ahead that I create a David vs. Goliath scenario, that's the game I've played - it's not wrong or bad or something that the game itself has to correct. The map is enormous - no one's going to be discovering all the cities anytime soon. I am still limited by the expansions - even if I won or bought them all, it's still a finite amount of space. I cannot earn fighters or goods any faster than the game allows me to. I cannot scout faster than the game allows me to. I cannot earn more coin or more supplies than my Main Hall size allows me to.

So, I will end with the comment that I am one of the few "large" cities for the smaller players in my area, and even if the gold mines around me start to fill up, they will likely do so with new players. So, for a new player who might click on my own city & think "Hey, that's a pretty big city. She probably plays a lot & I can work towards her so we can trade & she can visit me.", I think there should be INCENTIVES to encourage people to get to each other - not BARRIERS. Once you make some social connections in a game, I think it's true that people play more. I know I have.

 

[Maz Mellor]

I think there should be INCENTIVES to encourage people to get to each other - not BARRIERS. Once you make some social connections in a game, I think it's true that people play more. I know I have.

Well said, TTV!!

 

[DeletedUser627]

how is it that you are affected by this problem? What is the source?

My feedback to Inno's question:

I have a Wyn city at mid-Dwarven stage. I have 3 builders, and have purchased 2 expansions - othrwise it's a no-pay. I only have remaining cities to earn 1 expansion through Fairy and early Orc. I already have had to opt not to upgrade my T1 manufactories past L15, because I can't produce enough population. This means I'll also be unable to make the fairy upgrades - unless I opt to sell manufactories and build residences and see my city moving backwards.

There isn't any extraordinary "source" causing the problem. I have just an average city and have played the game as it spools out by following Research and the Storyline Quests. Since I didn't opt to pay for my premium Expansions, I negotiated encounters in order to win expansions.

The Orc requirement will force me to choose one of the following strategies:

1) purchase expansions
2) eliminate manufactories in order to build residences so I can update the few remaining manufactories (which feels like a loss, since I won't be producing more goods or seeing my city grow)
3) forego all upgrades while I drudge through the remaining Dwarven / Fairy research until I finally get far enough into Orc research to start earning expansions again. This is a lot of work with no visible reward, watching my builders sit idle for many weeks, getting further behind.
​

There's really no way to interpret this other than I have to pay or watch my game stall. I'm aware that Inno has the stated right to change the game at will, without notice. But doesn't it seem a bit disingenuous to make such a drastic change, and then pretend not to understand how / why we're affected? Players would probably be more respectful of a straightforward of "We want / need more revenue".

 

[dikke ikke]

Maybe you have grown to fast past ring 10 of provinces. I am also half way the dwarf level and I still have some provinces in ring 8 to discover, most likely I will have discovered them all by the time I am at the end of the level. This means that I still have to discover most of the ring 9 provinces if I get in fairies level and most of the ring 10 provinces when I reach orcs level. It is all about balance, if I see how big some cities are of players with the same score as me, they will probably run into trouble when they have to discover provinces of ring 10 when they are not yet in orcs level.

 

[DeletedUser627]

I looked at your city, dikke, and it's a nice human city. Did you really mean that I have "grown too fast"? First, since I'm playing within Inno's rules, how is it "too fast"? Also, I play this city quite casually (it's my second). I check in 4 times a day, pretty consistently. If a moderate play style is "too fast" in Inno's terms, what do they want from players?

 

[dikke ikke]

what I mean is that if you pass ring 10 of provinces before you reached the orcs level you probably have grown too fast, I have seen cities with 20 workshops, I am running on 9 since level 4 and I am still able to produce enough supplies. More workshops and more manufactories need more people to upgrade them, and for that you need more residences ... it is all connected. So if your city is big with lots of workshops, manufactories and residences you will pass ring 10 of provinces before you reach the orcs level, to compensate you will have to wait until your tech three is up to orcs level, or you have to sell some workshops and factories to be able to upgrade the other buildings

 

[DeletedUser2753]

#4 Though you may very well know this one:

For the first 5 chapters the design was consistent and patterns could be seen in what was "the balance" and how best to proceed, at least we all made our own observations and developed strategies. One thing many realized was that getting ahead of research for troops, in the map, was not a good move. So the frustration was low but it did generate for the developers some revenue, in diamond sales for expansions. I believe this was the real balance you wish to achieve, fun to play balanced against revenue created by frustration. First frustration was was space.

Then the Dwarfs arrive. If you bought the expansions you had land for thier mines but they were slow as molasses, a new frustration, time. Solution, again was diamonds. Buy some copper and granite and escape the dwarfs. But no. No new chapter yet. End of road

So introduce Ancient Wonders, a new game to use those waisted KPS, since you have nothing to research. Again another frustration, This time with completing the Rune wheel... A another solution, Just buy diamonds and buy the last 2 Runes, cheap at 200 diamonds each.

Finally fairies arrive and the Ancient Wonder KP chase slows as new research appears, Wow great smaller residences, you can expand again. and your still happy you bought those early expansions. All is good fairies are faster and you race through that one. No frustration, drop in revenue maybe. but again, your at the end of the road, no place to go. By now you have 100s of unusable shards and maybe a cluster of AWS in your build. Back to the AW KP game. Now by promoting AWS you promote getting extra KPS, you can scalp or scout, but damn fighting is hard now that your out 8,9,10 rings

Ta Da; Tournaments, Easy KPS, relics and shards. time goes on. still no next Chapter and worst yet you Mercenary Camp is "Coming Soon"
So you fight and cater each week for months. With all that land and human 2x5 residences the coin is flowing..No frustration, a lot of complaints about Coming Soon and AWs but no frustration and revenue. Even the whales are maxing out boosts and not buying snails...

So Along comes Orcs, Disguised as fun and humorous beasts, and it is time again to re-balance. First fairy residences were to generous, time to fix that one and lets make upgrades cost more population, time to cap negotiations on the map to end more expansions. OK frustration achieved, now what will the offer? new Premium expansions and snails for pop ... Ta Da, rebalanced.

I would like to thank Katwijk for his insight into rebalancing.

 

[dikke ikke]

Until now I did not feel the need to buy diamonds and the only frustration I have from time to time is space, but I guess that counts for everyone. At the moment my KPs go to my only AW because I have no space to build the other 2, and I am waiting until I have enough coal to complete axe barbarian promotion so I can use them to conquer the provinces I need to expand my city, I can not negotiate that much because I use my goods to cater in the tournaments and until now I always managed to end in the top 30 and scoring points. Patience is a virtue for people who have time to wait

 

[Mykan]

There are so many factors that play into this and many of them to me relate to the player. How competitive they are, amount of disposable income, how patient, strategy, willingness to change/adapt, early adopter, ambition, etc.

I play on several worlds and have paced myself on expansions to aim for the 160 provinces when I reach orcs. So no I am not super focused on rank, but if I was I know I would have to be willing to buy diamonds to truly compete. On most worlds I am not pushed for space, I try to vary my strategy between worlds, and some I had heaps of room going into dwarves and fairies in preparation for them and trying to retain space for wonders. I am yet to see how orcs go and I am looking forward to what appears to be a greater challenge for me on how to approach them.

I can certainly appreciate the frustration of those with a different approach to the game. I merely wish to point out that not everyone is having the same experience and without access to data that only the developers have it is very hard to say how many players are likely impacted by this. Personally I would love to read more on their calculations but don't expect that will happen.

 

[dikke ikke]

I only have 1 city, but in the wiki I check how the shape of the buildings evolves during the levels, so when they are at the point to change I try to reserve space for it by rearranging the surroundings. In my opinion it is also important to keep you culture buildings at the highest level so you use less space for the same amount of culture. Also use the highest level of roads, it is space you use anyway so let it have the highest possible culture level. That is how I try to keep space free for other building, although I need 4 expansions now to be comfortable again

 

[DeletedUser]

what I mean is that if you pass ring 10 of provinces before you reached the orcs level you probably have grown too fast, I have seen cities with 20 workshops, I am running on 9 since level 4 and I am still able to produce enough supplies. More workshops and more manufactories need more people to upgrade them, and for that you need more residences ... it is all connected. So if your city is big with lots of workshops, manufactories and residences you will pass ring 10 of provinces before you reach the orcs level, to compensate you will have to wait until your tech three is up to orcs level, or you have to sell some workshops and factories to be able to upgrade the other buildings

I have 9 manufactories also. I passed 10 rings in early Dwarves, so yes, I have passed that measurement before Orcs, before Fairies too. On the Elvenar 1.10 feedback thread at the top of this General Discussion forum, I have a post all about how I reasoned that my city was "balanced" based on how many of this or how many of that I have, or how I used to belong to a FS where I needed more steel but now I am in one where I am thinking I might be able to lose a steel manufactory but think I need another scroll. My game has absolutely been "balanced" based on what I have needed at the time, and based on progressing through the Research Tree. I won't repeat my whole post from that thread, but anyone can easily read it if they are so inclined. The question then becomes - if I think my game is balanced based on my needs, who else can say that it isn't? In fact, on that same thread, I asked others if my city was indeed "balanced" & the general consensus was that IT WAS.

I find it interesting that on a post where feedback is ASKED FOR by THOSE AFFECTED BY THE ISSUE, when we speak up to say that yes, this is a problem for me, and here is why, we find ourselves chastised by those NOT experiencing the issue. Again, I wonder why so many people seem to want us all to play the exact same game. If someone wants to build 30 Snail Palaces and only Scroll manufactories - I say, have at it, friend! Enjoy the heck out of your city!

If someone says they are happy with their progress & feel that their game is going well - I say, good for you! Glad you are having fun!

If you want to have some residences from Dwarves, and some from Fairies, and some from Orcs - I say, more power to you for figuring out how to do it & still manage to have enough population & space to move forward!

I realize I'm a bit off-topic now & for that I apologize. The whole concept of "grown too fast" makes no sense to me in any game. No one can grow faster than the game has allowed, period. If you start off in Chapter one & start buying diamonds & expansions & have the biggest & best buildings and the most space you can possibly have, is that "grown too fast"? It can't be - otherwise the game wouldn't have allowed it, right? I mean, if the goal is to make money and in order to do so you have to get (and KEEP) players playing, then there is no such thing as "grown too fast".

There is also no general definition of "balance" in this game either - balance is specific to each player, based upon the choices they have made thus far in the game. My idea of "balance" is to make enough supplies, goods, troops & coin to allow me to trade fairly with others (AND also give out unfair-to-me trades to new players so that they get a little boost), pay for the upgrades I'd like to make, participate in all of my boosted tourneys & some of my nonboosted, sometimes fight through a province & sometimes negotiate through it, and so that I feel like I'm at least moving forward in the game. That's balance for me - and I was totally doing it until this Orc issue put a halt to ANY negotiation of provinces.

 

[DeletedUser188]

I started playing on Arendyl the day it opened
My style of play is more towards the fighting not negotiating
The farther out I explored I noticed the fighting gets harder until it gets impossible
I would stop fighting until my armies could fight again
Realizing that if I negotiated those sectors instead of waiting for army upgrades I would be unable to fight when I did get the upgrades because I would have negotiated farther than my army could be able to fight
It was my CHOICE to do that even though the game allowed me to progress through negotiating I choose not to and waited
So now here we are and the Orcs have arrived and with them more upgrades for my armies and I should be able to fight again thank you inno
I choose to follow the fighting path and with that comes restrictions as you progress until it becomes impossible to fight
My question is
Why should a player who chooses to negotiate instead of fighting not be limited by a restriction on negotiating once you reach a certain point ?
The players who choose to fight and not negotiate have an impossible restriction once they reach a certain point

 

[dikke ikke]

Of course everybody can play the game the way they want, but my feeling is that people who are complaining now about having to have orcs to continue their game can not play the games at the moment as they are used to before. I have chosen not to buy diamonds and want to move up in the ranks fast and until now I am able to do so, being at dwarves level after only 6 months.

 

[DeletedUser2753]

Well stated Travels

 

[DeletedUser43]

I find it interesting that on a post where feedback is ASKED FOR by THOSE AFFECTED BY THE ISSUE, when we speak up to say that yes, this is a problem for me, and here is why, we find ourselves chastised by those NOT experiencing the issue. Again, I wonder why so many people seem to want us all to play the exact same game.

Yup. That exactly.

 

[DeletedUser1010]

Something I want to point out is that some of us may have been playing for a year or so and had long wait times on new tech bc of it ( there was a good long wait for some of us before the first guess race showed up) so in that time there was nothing to do, no ancient wonders, tournaments, nothing So we negotiated/fought open providences, build more just to have something to do bc we didn't want to leave the game (or at least for me that's how it was) So when you compare cities you have to take in account how long they been playing the game and how much wait time they have had. Sure if I'd started playing five months ago or 6 I probably wouldn't have opened as many providences as I had other stuff to do, and I would of follow the guide on the tech tree for how many providences to open for next chapter... Ect

 

[DeletedUser627]

I started playing on Arendyl the day it opened
My style of play is more towards the fighting not negotiating
The farther out I explored I noticed the fighting gets harder until it gets impossible
I would stop fighting until my armies could fight again
Realizing that if I negotiated those sectors instead of waiting for army upgrades I would be unable to fight when I did get the upgrades because I would have negotiated farther than my army could be able to fight
It was my CHOICE to do that even though the game allowed me to progress through negotiating I choose not to and waited
So now here we are and the Orcs have arrived and with them more upgrades for my armies and I should be able to fight again thank you inno
I choose to follow the fighting path and with that comes restrictions as you progress until it becomes impossible to fight
My question is
Why should a player who chooses to negotiate instead of fighting not be limited by a restriction on negotiating once you reach a certain point ?
The players who choose to fight and not negotiate have an impossible restriction once they reach a certain point

First, you made a strategy choice - to fight rather than negotiate. Inno didn't place any limitation on your play - you opted to limit yourself if you chose not to utilize the combination of negotiating and fighting.

I can agree that the progress of fighters is more limited in province encounters...but this has a advantageous side effect. As of now, negotiating Provinces is crucial to any player who wants to fight in Tournaments. For example, back in December - at the first mention of Tournaments - I entirely stopped fighting and only negotiated provinces so I could eventually begin Tournament play with as large an army as possible. So, negotiations create greater opportunities for fighters - and thus the Orc restriction hurts all players.

Any discussion of the Orc restriction is meaningless anyway, in terms of the game balance or various justifications for it. If it were important to the overall balance of the game, players wouldn't be able to buy their way past it. But we can, so it's just an artificial impediment intended to create frustration - which can conveniently now be alleviated by the 33 expansions freely available for purchase at any time.

 

[DeletedUser2753]

so in that time there was nothing to do, no ancient wonders, tournaments, nothing So we negotiated/fought open providences, build more just to have something to do bc we didn't want to leave the game

Good point Catti-Brie
Question: Catti-Brie; I have been monitoring Winyandar and the purge and now your listed with a score of 0. Can you tell me how and when that happened?