Feedback please regarding the new orc limitation

[DeletedUser627]

The obvious consequence of having a wide variety of Ancient Wonder Runes is that folks will go ahead and build more Ancient Wonders, when they have a bit of space, so that they will have the advantage of the permanent buffs, rather than stacking up manufacturing buildings which provide zero benefit other than bragging rights. You can convert the excess goods into KPs and thence into Rank by reciprocal contributions to Ancient Wonders, but that's pretty grindstony.

"...build more ancient wonders...advantage of the permanent buffs...rather than manufacturing buildings which provide zero benefit...[and are] pretty grindstony"

Shall we enumerate these "permanent buffs":

• Tome of Secrets: minimal KP, a few supplies
• Abyss:nice population
• Excavation: a few supplies, minimal Relics
• Tempest: nice training speed boost, minimal value light ranged boost
• MMonastery: low per/grid Culture, small troop health bonus
• Lighthouse: Good NH time bonus, niggardly NH goods bonus (invalidated by GoldMines)
• Watchtower: moderate NH building culture bonus, low per/grid Culture
• Thrones: nice extra rank points
• Bulwark: minimal value troop production, low per/grid unit production bonus
• Mountain Hall: low population, nice goods production boost
• ProsperityTower: moderate Spell duration increase, nice supplies
• Blooming Trader: moderate Wholesale and Trade fee reductions, small guest Portal boost

Nothing about this list supports the argument "permanent buffs rather than manufacturing". Nothing. And as for "grindstony", that's the nature of the game as of now. To say that Wonders make for less grinding isn't accurate, since all the Wonder benefits above in blue are actually benefits we only see if we do the grindstone work!​

 

[DeletedUser61]

Wait, how are provinces above 222 cheap?

They're NOT cheap anymore, but if you have already negotiated 300 provinces, you got at least 78 of them on the cheap.

Nothing about this list supports the argument "permanent buffs rather than manufacturing"

• "Excess" manufacturing runs up your score because manufacturing buildings gobble required Workers and required Culture. Once you consider the space that's required for those Workers and Culture, as well as the buildings themselves, excess manufacturing also gobbles up a lot of space.
• Other than a high score, some trading flexibility, and (once upon a time) negotiating then catering lots of provinces then tournaments, the ONLY benefits that are provided by excess goods is due to the purchase of Knowledge Points which can then used to level Ancient Wonders.
• Hence, Ancient Wonders are the key benefit regardless of how you slice the pie, although Tournament are an important source of the require Runes.

 

[DeletedUser627]

Katwijk, sometimes it seems you're arguing just for the sake of arguing, because you chase yourself in a circle.

You invent the term "excess manufacturing" - telling players that it's possible to produce too many goods. Then, in this above post, you admit that there are specific advantages to having goods:

1. Trading flexibility. And not "some" as you state - the trading flexibility is substantial
2. Negotiating and catering provinces. Not "once upon a time" as you state. I know players who no longer fight any regular provinces: we save our valuable troops for tournaments, and pay the huge negotiation costs because units produce more value there. We can, in a pinch, opt to cater provinces even in tourney play if we choose.
3. Purchasing KP to level Wonders. Yes and yes! It's not accidental that the players with the highest level Wonders are the players who produce the most goods. This fact alone would negate the concept of "excess goods".
4. You didn't mention it, but progress through Research and upgrades is directly impacted by the consistent availability of goods. I don't think we should discourage early / mid range players from building a strong manufacturing base since the consequences would be twofold: stagnated progress in Research (resulting in boredom from unavailability of upgrades) and inability to upgrade a select Wonder or two.

There's little, if any, merit to continuing to disparage players who adhere to the strategy of producing goods. Until we have Wonders that actually progress our game - or some entirely new game activity - goods production remains the strongest way to advance every aspect of Elvenar play.

 

[DeletedUser1987]

What bobbipiazza said. And seriously, Katwijk, you keep going on and on about how Ancient Wonders give permanent buffs and therefore they're better than Manufactories. Not all permanent buffs are created equal. Some of them are better than Manufactories, but some are not, and I find it frustrating that you're arguing that the ones which really aren't worth building... are.

 

[DeletedUser61]

you're arguing that the ones which really aren't worth building... are.

You're reading stuff that's not there. I'm interested in maybe half of the Ancient Wonders. In FoE there's the occasional player who has ALL of the Great Buildings, just because, but only about a third of them are actually a good investment, and even that varies as you progress through the game.

But the essential notion is that Ancient Wonders provide PERMANENT benefits WITHOUT consuming any Workers/Culture initially, nor any Coins/Supplies/Goods every day. And if your tech tree is stalled out for the moment, the Knowledge Points don't even represent a lost opportunity. As such, the Cost/Benefit ratio is just terrific for an Ancient Wonder.

goods production remains the strongest way to advance every aspect of Elvenar play

We actually agree on that point, but the question is NOT whether Goods are useful, but rather if EXCESS manufacturing buildings, more than 2 or 3 of each boosted type, provide a significant benefit.

The airline industry provides us with an apt analogy.
See http://www.usatoday.com/story/trave...in-do-jets-use-full-power-on-takeoff/2012995/

• Emergency/Full Power is everything you can manage, regardless of fuel consumption and stress on the engine
• Derated Take-Off power looks at how much power you actually need to reach take-off speed while you still have plenty of runway
• Cruise Power is the sweet spot where Speed, Fuel Consumption, and Wear and Tear are nicely balanced.

The analogy that I wish to make is that if you're running your Elvenar city at Take-Off power ALL OF THE TIME, you're going to run out of fuel before you arrive at your destination. Folks are burning out and "quitting" because they're pressing TOO HARD, which amplifies even the tiniest of problems.

It's IMPORTANT to consider not only how FAST you're getting there, but also WHERE you're going and how much reserve capacity you might need along the way.

To use an agricultural analogy, let's compare Corn Fields and Rose Gardens.

• If bio-mass (score) is your objective, then go with a mono-culture approach, and only plant Corn. Lots of corn. You'll need some substantial technical skills, because you won't have much room for errors.
• If enjoyment (relaxed puzzle solving) is your objective then go with a more diverse approach. You'll probably have several types of roses, and you'll want to intentionally pick varieties that bloom early and late, so that your Rose Garden will be enjoyable for several months. Technical skills are not as important, because you're not very concerned about counting rose petals.

Elvenar works very well indeed without Premium Expansions. I'm running a couple of my cities with just City Expansions and the Provincial Expansions that are needed to open the Advanced Scouting chests. I think the game is actually FAR MORE INTERESTING, and certainly less frustrating, if you don't dump in tons of Goods to overwhelm the various challenges.

 

[DeletedUser]

....but the question is NOT whether Goods are useful, but rather if EXCESS manufacturing buildings, more than 2 or 3 of each boosted type, provide a significant benefit.

So, in this statement you are suggesting that more than 2 or 3 manufactories of each kind is excessive, because you suggest that any more than this means that a player is playing at "Full Power", which you then say is playing "too hard" aka "wrong". Am I misreading this in any way?

Back on the thread for Feedback on Release Notes 1.10, page 5-6ish, we've debated what a "balanced" game is, and I explained how many factories I had, why I had them, and listed some thoughts on why players might choose to have higher numbers of manufactories beyond just for scoring points. And you, Katwijk, said in response to me - on page 6 -

"That's a very useful definition of a balanced game. If you MUST play one way or the other, in order to remain competitive, then we really only have half of a game. If you're still using both Negotiating and Fighting, depending on the circumstances, then you're already playing a balanced game."

No one commented to me that my game was unbalanced, and as I myself feel that I have balanced my numbers, buildings, goods & supplies as well as I can, the ONLY area I feel unbalanced in my game is that I can no longer negotiate provinces due to the Orc requirement (which, again, I am still in Dwarves and cannot meet since I have no ability to produce Orcs). So, this forces me to fight only - NO NEGOTIATION. I lose most of my troops since I don't even have upgraded Golems yet. As I cannot negotiate, my game IS NOT balanced, due to this Orc roadblock.

Regardless, that is rehashing an old point, but I just add it for background because it speaks to the fact that previously my city has been judged as "balanced", and I have 6 Steel, 5 Scrolls & 3 Elixer (I want 1 more Elixer but don't have the space).

Currently, out of 200 completed provinces, I have THREE neighbors who play at least 3x a week - rarely 6x a week. These are the only 3 neighbors I have that I can trade with without extra costs, and the only 3 neighbors I can count on to visit me at least 3x a week. No visits from any other neighbors - I'm in a sea of goldmines. I play often, and I need non-boosted goods in decent-sized quantities to get through Tourneys & to upgrade the buildings I have, so the solution is to join a FS, right? In my opinion, a "good" FS means that you have regular players - it might be nice to have high ranking players, but what we all NEED is players who will consistently visit you & trade with you, yes?

So, if a player only has 2 or 3 manufactories of each type, I find it quite incredible to think of what kind of game pace that is, and I can't imagine that they are helping their FS in any way either. And if they are NOT in a FS and have to pay 'extra' goods in order to trade with those they have not discovered yet, they are at a disadvantage there. I have not seen ANY player other than brand new ones who have that few manufactories. Let's disregard rank for a moment, even though lots of people do like to move up through the rankings to feel like they are making progress in this game (yes, this includes me).

I am quite interested in hearing from any other players - of any rank - who also think that more than 3 manufactories of any one kind are excessive. Are you in a FS? Do you place a lot of multi-tier trades (ie, you will offer Elixer for Steel, or Planks for Crystal, etc)? Does your FS have mostly members who are farther along than you or behind you? Are you the most frequent player in your area of the map or FS, the least frequent, or somewhere in the middle?

And, if other players are more inclined to agree with MY perspective - that a player needs MORE than 3 manufactories of each boost - then are we ALL playing this game WRONG? <---- I ask this with some level of facetiousness, because I have already said in previous posts that no one is playing this game WRONG, just differently. Personally, I much prefer choice in how we play this game, yet many of us see us all being funneled towards the exact same pacing, exact same game, exact same everything, and that's one reason why many are frustrated.

As I stated back on that previous thread, page 6 -
"In my ownFS, I actually have more points than a couple of people who are farther in the Tech Tree than I am. I have more points than others who have multiple AWs (I currently have none). I think this is due to 2 things - I play more frequently & I complete more provinces (by both fighting & negotiating) than they do. Is either way "wrong"? Is either way "better"? Nope, I don't think so, just different. Have we each not somehow earned our points though? Should a more active player be penalized because they are having fun playing the game frequently? And should a less active player somehow get advantages in order to make their point level more in line with that frequent player?

I also think this goes back to my question of why should we all be forced to play the exact same game? Everything we do earns us points, so if someone in Fairies (quite ahead of me in the Tech Tree) has a lower point score than I do (and I'm in Dwarves), do we look at that & say "how unfair, that Dwarves person must have an unfair advantage?" or do we look at that & say "probably that Dwarves person plays a lot more than the Fairies person"?
We've made different choices to get to where we are - one of which is that one player plays more often, maybe one player got in a better FS (which is just a chance/luck thing), maybe one player landed on a better map spot (with active neighbors & less gold mines, etc), and a hundred other choices."

This AW ridiculousness just adds penalty after penalty to those of us who've been loyal, regular players (and spenders, I might add!). And it does take away choice - it's one thing to have to fill in the KPs for each AW (just like we have to do with non-boosted manufactories), yet another thing completely to make it so hard to get runes for what you DO want to build. Less choices, yet again.

 

[Maz Mellor]

I am quite interested in hearing from any other players - of any rank - who also think that more than 3 manufactories of any one kind are excessive. Are you in a FS? Do you place a lot of multi-tier trades (ie, you will offer Elixer for Steel, or Planks for Crystal, etc)? Does your FS have mostly members who are farther along than you or behind you? Are you the most frequent player in your area of the map or FS, the least frequent, or somewhere in the middle?

Just chiming in to say that I do NOT think more than 3 manufactories of any one kind is excessive. In my Elven city on Aren, I currently have 4 marble factories (lvl 17), 4 crystal factories (3 lvl 15 + 1 lvl 11), and 3 gems factories (lvl 15); my marble production boost is 472% and the other two are 412%. Until recently, I actually had 6 marble factories and 3 crystal, but I decided to rebalance when I made the jump into Dwarven. (I don't know if I'll always keep the fourth crystal factory, but for now it seems to make sense given the needs of my fellowship.) I am determined to keep producing sufficient boosted goods at ALL levels to supply myself and help out my fellows. If I do post cross-tier trades, it is never T3-for-T1, and I always factor in a steep discount to make them truly fair (e.g., 100 gems for 300 scrolls). I don't think I have ever offered T1-for-T3 or T2-for-T3.

 

[DeletedUser61]

I'm in a sea of goldmines.

I'm tracking US1: Arendyll quite closely, over at https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/arendyll-neighborhood-watch.2973/page-2#post-21083. Immigrants are replacing about 1% of the cities each day, because they've been inactive for 30 days. If no immigrants are available then we'll see a Goldmine after 31 days, but we still have a net population gain, so about 1% of the Goldmines are being replaced each week.

The center of the map is actually pretty dense now, and most of the Goldmines are on the fringes of the map. The developers have indicated that they will soon start moving the isolated cities to more populated areas, but they have not shared any details nor have then even hinted how soon they expect the new algorithm to be implemented.

There may not even BE an announcement, because everything that we know about immigration policy is by observation. The developers have not stated their objectives for neighborhood density nor composition, nor have they ever shared the details of the database schema and immigration algorithm.

So, if a player only has 2 or 3 manufacturing buldings of each type, I find it quite incredible to think of what kind of game pace that is

Just as an eyeball estimate, a player with no Premium Expansions won't have room for more 2-3 boosted manufacturing buildings of each type, and that's actually plenty of Goods to satisfy the requirements of the Tech Tree, plus a modest amount of Goods for negotiating and catering. A small footprint city will need to be pretty good at combat, but you can easily use Auto-Battle for all of the Advanced Scouting chests if you know what you're doing.

Click to Enlarge

make it so hard to get runes for what you DO want to build Having enough Runes is mostly about spending enough time on the game. • We'd have a universal Rune if the design intent were that Ancient Wonders should be built immediately after the research was completed, but that's NOT the case. You'll need approximately 18+18 Runes before you can build your FIRST Ancient Wonders, and subsequent Runes are diluted even further. To the point, I can upgrade my Chapter IV AWs another 3 times each, simply because they've been around the longest. • The established players will be swimming in Runes six months from now because of Provinces, Tournaments, and Contests. • The players who are still working their way through the Technology Tree don't need more than a couple of Ancient Wonders anyway, mostly so that they'll have somewhere to dump off Knowledge Points that would otherwise be lost when their hourly bar was capped.

 

[DeletedUser1053]

okay. so this thread seems to have gotten a mite off track.

Orcs. I have over 250 provinces completed. I have fought for almost every encounter. I will admit, there were a few I did not, but very few. I did this so I would have the expansions. I have as yet, not purchased diamonds. I am not averse to doing so, but have yet to see the need. I can be patient. I have only played tournaments when it is my boosted relic, though that may change since I am now maxing those. I have had a number of people from my fellowship in both dwarves and fairies run into orc limitations.

The biggest issue I have found is that the game has been woefully inadequate in teaching players how to fight. I learned a lot of stuff on my own. I try to think everything through. I have spent much time planning things before I do it and like to research. Not all people are as AR as I am. I have tried to explain to a number of people, but apparently, I must not be explaining well.

In theory, I do not have an issue with the orc limitation. It should limit in the same way fighting limits when the opposing forces are so overwhelming. In reality, until there is a much better system of showing people how to fight well, I believe the orc requirement limits people in their choices, which I think is not what the devs are supposed to intend. But, I am not privy to their thoughts so I really do not have any evidence for this thought.

I know some people who do not fight at all because of the difficulty they had when they started. That is a choice, but I feel it is due to inadequate training. I really think there should be several encounters that should be guided. For instance, when players gain a new type of unit. They may not understand the way in which the unit can be best used. Every unit in the game has a use, but many in my fellowship don't know when to use which. Also, some do not understand how to place units to get them where you want them when you start. I have figured it out, but WHY wasn't this made clear in the game.

To sum up, it is my belief that the orc requirement is artificially limiting the choices of players at this time, not because it is an inherently bad concept, but because I think there has not been enough training in how to perform combat in the game which has forced some players to give up on the battle system.

BTW, I actually really like the battle system now that I feel I have a decent handle on it. I am sure there are some suggestions that could help me be better with it, but I very, rarely lose a battle where I am. I have both a human and an elven city. I do think elves are currently better due to their sorceresses. I am very eagerly awaiting the 'coming soon' units.

 

[DeletedUser]

In response to Travelstovegas - In my main city in Winyandor, I have 3 manufactories of each level - 3 steel lvl 18 (19 is too ugly), 3 crystal lvl 19, 3 elixir lvl 15. My relic boosts are currently around 500%. I belong to the 23rd ranked fellowship as a mage and I trade thousands of goods a day - probably over 10,000 on each tier. I also provide neighborly help daily, and I monitor the forums to provide "heads up" knowledge to other players who do not. I seem to be keeping pace with the game, and have around 200,000 goods of each type, each tier. I'm beginning orcs and very, very close to an orc lockout. So I think I do plenty to support my fellowship and do my part for the trade balance. Whether more factories are excessive or not, I can't say. I built what I had room for without buying any expansions. But I think we should each choose our game. I'm negotiating more and more right now, because the fighting is time consuming and boring. I still fight occasionally, but it's rarer and rarer. I should have a choice to leverage my goods or my troops, depending on the time I have to invest. I'm fortunate in that I'll have orcs in less than 2 weeks.

I agree with Riggs. The information on how to use the combat module is abysmal. The most useful info I found was the Encounters Guide on the Beta forum. The wiki was practically useless - it didn't even tell me how to use my troops to attack. I've repeatedly asked for improvements to the wiki on that score, but my suggestions have fallen on deaf ears. Big surprise. If they're reworking the entire battle module as some have rumored, then maybe we'll see some new info when that happens. Soon tm.

Except I don't want orcs and their ugly buildings. And I definitely don't want to have to have those mushroom farms sticking around indefinitely. Does that mean the orc chapter is the last, since you can't sell the guest race buildings? Will I have to have orc houses forever? If so, count me out.

 

[DeletedUser627]

Just as an eyeball estimate, a player with no Premium Expansions won't have room for more 2-3 boosted manufacturing buildings of each type, and that's actually plenty of Goods to satisfy the requirements of the Tech Tree, plus a modest amount of Goods for negotiating and catering. A small footprint city will need to be pretty good at combat, but you can easily use Auto-Battle for all of the Advanced Scouting chests if you know what you're doing.

My no-pay city had room for 12 T1 / 5 T2 / 4 T3 manufactories through Dwarven - with no purchased expansions. Everything runs 24/7, including the Barracks. The manf's aren't all at highest level - they're leveled to gain the most production from available grid / pop.

If my space weren't devoted to manf - what other useful purpose would I use it for? I suppose I could have more culture bonus instead of manufacturing. If I couldn't run 4-5 daily cycles, that would make sense. But if I can...then what's the advantage of excess solely in supplies /coins?

One of the overlooked strategies through early play is to NEVER fight. Instead I used all the goods to negotiate every province...steadily building a large army. Then, once the Golem / Sorc III Research upgrades are finished, I automatically have thousands of troops available for tournament play - where in ONE tournament session I can gain enough Relics fora 700% goods bonus.

Aside from that idea...

Having enough Runes is mostly about spending enough time on the game.

Don't we all know longterm players who still can't gain desired Runes.

 

[DeletedUser61]

My no-pay city had room for 12 T1 / 5 T2 / 4 T3 manufactories through Dwarven

But was that PRIOR to the Orc soft cap?? Do you already have MORE than 66 expansions? That's what small footprint and non-Diamond cities will be seeing in the future.

• 33 City Expansions
• 33 Provincial Expansions, from the 222 provinces that are in the first 10 rings
• 33 Premium Expansions that are not used

 

[DeletedUser3575]

I have a non-pay city on Felyndral with 6 plank/2 scroll/2 dust manufactories. The planks are maxed and I always feel I am behind, especially for Fellowship trading. I definitely do not think more than 2 or 3 manufactories are excessive. My scrolls and dust are not maxed yet, and until recently I felt I was keeping up just fine (and in fact was able to stockpile for a while) but with the tournaments and Solstice event, I've depleted much of my reserves and wish I had space for one more of each. I have one manufactory for each of my non-boosted goods for tier 1 and 2; I will probably remove those shortly to make room for more of my boosteds if these types of events continue to prove as big a drain on my Goods as they have been so far! My province play style is heavily mixed between negotiation and combat (I have four maxed armories and a maxed barracks, no problem with troops except stack size) and again, I feel having more of my planks manufactories is the only way I'd be able to get enough tier 1 goods through FS trades to continue negotiating the provinces for which my stack size is too small.

Without any Premium Expansions, I felt I had reached a good balance and was eager to make progress into Dwarves - right before Orcs, mandatory AW, and Solstice hit. Now I feel like I am almost completely stagnant, using my excess coins and supplies only to purchase more Goods or KP rather than using them to expand and grow my city. I'm only a couple provinces away from hitting the Orc ring on all sides and being even more stymied; at that point my game will consist primarily of stockpiling goods and waiting on KP. Fortunately I'm finally past the way-back AW researches and should be able to make a few upgrades in my city soon, but without being able to unlock Province Expansions until I hit Orcs in another two chapters, I won't be able to expand my footprint very quickly and will continue running into brick walls. Not looking forward to it, honestly, and really hoping some of the common frustrations are addressed in an update before I actually get there!

 

[DeletedUser627]

But was that PRIOR to the Orc soft cap?? Do you already have MORE than 66 expansions? That's what small footprint and non-Diamond cities will be seeing in the future.

• 33 City Expansions
• 33 Provincial Expansions, from the 222 provinces that are in the first 10 rings
• 33 Premium Expansions that are not used

I have 60 grids. In addition to the manf's above, there's a MA, 1 Wonder, and 22 Dwarven mines. Back to my original point, I just can't see basis for your point that non-pay players only have space for 2-3 manf's each.

 

[DeletedUser3575]

I have 60 grids. In addition to the manf's above, there's a MA, 1 Wonder, and 22 Dwarven mines. Back to my original point, I just can't see basis for your point that non-pay players only have space for 2-3 manf's each.

Oh yeah, in my non-pay city I also have two Wonders (Lighthouse and Monastery) and the MA. On top of my 13 manufactories and four maxed armories. In a 50-plot grid. No reason to think having more than a couple manufactories won't fit the space.

 

[DeletedUser43]

Don't we all know longterm players who still can't gain desired Runes.

Jumping up in down raising my hand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bobbi, I think you misread Katwijk's post. He didn't say you couldn't have more than 2 or 3 factories, he implied that you SHOULDN'T because any more would be "excess" and don't provide a significant benefit.

We actually agree on that point, but the question is NOT whether Goods are useful, but rather if EXCESS manufacturing buildings, more than 2 or 3 of each boosted type, provide a significant benefit.

I think negotiating provinces and clearing as many as you can and saving your troops for tournaments is a HUGE benefit. It can provide you a few hundred extra kp each week if you do enough tournaments.

 

[DeletedUser627]

...
Bobbi, I think you misread Katwijk's post. He didn't say you couldn't have more than 2 or 3 factories, he implied that you SHOULDN'T because any more would be "excess" and don't provide a significant benefit.

Well, first he said this:

a player with no Premium Expansions won't have room for more 2-3 boosted manufacturing buildings of each type,

and then he modified it.

 

[DeletedUser]

So, am I getting the gist of this right.... if you have chosen to only negotiate encounters, once you hit the orcs, you can't really play anymore? So you can't "really" chose the non-battle path?

 

[DeletedUser61]

if you have chosen to only negotiate encounters, once you hit the orcs

Without Orcs you can negotiate 10 full rings, which is 222 Provinces. You only need 160 provinces to open the Chapter VIII Advanced Scouting chest, so you have a margin of 62 Provinces OVER AND ABOVE what you need to keep up with the game.

 

[DeletedUser]

So once I get the Chapter VIII Advanced Scouting chest I won't have to bother with the orcs at all?