mucksterme
Oh Wise One
This
Plus if it is all about the rules you agreed to
because obviously you read them thoroughly
being you are a legal expert
then you also agreed to this
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Your Elvenar Team
This
Plus if it is all about the rules you agreed to
because obviously you read them thoroughly
being you are a legal expert
then you also agreed to this
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
I just spent some time searching on google, and couldn't find a single case of something like this. While your theory might have some logic behind it, I cannot imagine that someone would actually try and sue because a game told other players in a game that you played that game. Even if you did, I very much doubt that you have any chance of winning.
What you have done though is derail a very good suggestion thread with what amounts to nothing because:
Ashrem
Oh Wise One
Everyone reserves the right to change their rules. That doesn't protect them from specific laws to the contrary.
(edit [because soggy's post slipped under mine) I didn't say sue. I said complain to the privacy commissioner. It wouldn't get me any money, but it might get a game company a slap on the wrist and a requirement to seek explicit consent.
I'm sorry you feel like I've derailed the conversation.
(edit [because soggy's post slipped under mine) I didn't say sue. I said complain to the privacy commissioner. It wouldn't get me any money, but it might get a game company a slap on the wrist and a requirement to seek explicit consent.
I'm sorry you feel like I've derailed the conversation.
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
In this case it would. It's not like they are adding a rule that says they can now murder your family, which breaks a real law.
No country or district has privacy laws that are so strict that they would cover this situation, let alone take it to the point of successfully taking action against a company based in a foreign country.
Ashrem
Oh Wise One
PIPEDA requires businesses to ask for the least amount of personal information to meet the purpose of providing the product or service and to clearly tell customers why they are collecting it. You may ask for information that goes beyond the purpose of providing the product or service if you make it clearly optional; or you may ask for consent to use information for secondary purposes, such as marketing, if you make it optional.
(edit: to clarify, PIPEDA is Canadian Law, and applies to any company that wants to do business with Canadian residents, either physically or via the internet.)
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
Go ahead, call them, ask if there's a case here.
When they say "personal information" they are not talking about letting players of a multiplayer game know when other players are playing.
Think about it, almost every single online platform has this feature- "SoggyShorts has logged in"
As we have mentioned, there is already the /who feature, so if you or your FS uses this enough, you are already able to gather this information.
The quote you posted is perfect- the product they are providing (if the suggestion is implemented) is a game that has a feature where you can see who is online, or when they were online last. To provide that service they need to gather that information.
When they say "personal information" they are not talking about letting players of a multiplayer game know when other players are playing.
Think about it, almost every single online platform has this feature- "SoggyShorts has logged in"
As we have mentioned, there is already the /who feature, so if you or your FS uses this enough, you are already able to gather this information.
The quote you posted is perfect- the product they are providing (if the suggestion is implemented) is a game that has a feature where you can see who is online, or when they were online last. To provide that service they need to gather that information.
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Ashrem
Oh Wise One
I'm not going to waste anyone's time over a hypothetical that I don't think will ever happen. (barring people who are participating here, because we've all agreed to have our time wasted by participating.)
No game has a non-optional feature that tells you how often I played this week and who's city I helped or didn't help. I don't think that level of (non-optional) detail about my play is available in any existing game, anywhere. "Last log in" is significantly less than what people are asking for.
* And how often they were online this week (as a function of the even more intrusive "how often they provided help to each of their fellows"). And they still wouldn't have to provide that information to a third party who has no contract with the player. There is nothing about the game play that requires it.
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
The information is already there. Golden hands already gives this information.
The only change is that instead of having 4 mages check our notifications multiple times a day, and record these on a shared google doc is that the game would do it for us.
The only change is that instead of having 4 mages check our notifications multiple times a day, and record these on a shared google doc is that the game would do it for us.
Ashrem
Oh Wise One
Kind of. It won't tell you how often I helped the other 20 people in the fellowship, though. Are we asking for a feature that only tells the archmage how often everyone in the group helped 4 specific people and not anybody else?
If you and several other people watch my house and favorite restaurant for a week, you can find out all kinds of information about me. That's still not the same as the restaurant showing you all my receipts for the week or the alarm company telling you how many times I set and cancelled the alarm.
This is getting uncomfortable in a bad way. What is it about my opinion (that the information should be opt in) that is so different from everyone else's opinions, that my opinion is invalid without overwhelming evidence?
I think it should be optional. The devs aren't forced to listen to me and no-one else is forced to agree with me.
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
We don't actually use Mages for tracking, we secretly use 4 FS members that don't know who the other 3 are, it's not perfect, but that's why we want this feature in game.
Grossly exaggerated comparison. If that restaurant tracked how many times you came in and how much you spent, and then shared that information with its employees for the purpose of deciding who gets the VIP treatment no court would ever intervene. If they posted your Visa number that's a different story.
It's because you are saying something is against the law. That is no longer simply an opinion, but rather a statement that either needs to be backed with proof, or can be disputed.
If you scroll WAY up, you'll see that I agree it should be optional.
I just think it should be there for peoples comfort, not for legal reasons (Because I don't believe there are any)
Ashrem
Oh Wise One
Arch mages are not employees of the "restaurant." (Inno) They are unrelated entities who do no have any financial risk at stake and are not parties to any agreement between the customer and the company.
There is my opinion that it could be a breach of a specific Canadian Law. It's your opinion that it isn't. We can't be disagreeing over the existence of the law, because that's a fact, only over whether it's applicable, which is entirely opinion until the commission takes someone to court, at which time it will still be opinion, but presumably the best available opinion. I didn't say it would be illegal. I said I think it should be optional, and I provided reasons why I think it should be optional, and when told there were no countries with laws that would cover the situation, I provided a link to a law that I think does cover the situation.
DeletedUser5869
Guest
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
Fine, if a bar posts a list of everyone's scores in their daily dart league that everyone who frequents the pub can see, that would be similar to disclosing which players logged in each day, right? It's actually a pretty close comparison, because like Elvenar, players can have fake names.
So tell me, do you seriously think this bar could get into trouble for that?
Keep in mind, unlike the example where real people are showing up for dart games, Elvenar is anonymous. (SoggyShorts isn't my real name
) Especially since you are using Canadian law as your example, I think not. We don't grant million dollar settlements to burglers who trip on your skateboard while trying to steal your TV up here. Even in the more litigious USA most of those stories are urban myths.
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mucksterme
Oh Wise One
I would disagree with "no game does this"
I used to admin a server for an RPG that did exactly these things
BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY
As Soggy said, this has gone way beyond derailed. And I don't see anyone changing their mind.
I used to admin a server for an RPG that did exactly these things
BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY
As Soggy said, this has gone way beyond derailed. And I don't see anyone changing their mind.
DeletedUser2870
Guest
No, not a lawyer/legalist/legal expert or whatever. But not completely ignorant either, took a few semesters of different law classes as I had the time to do so. A lot can be figured out easily enough if one takes the time to sit down and read.
And yes, that is a very common line in the rules, not just with innogames but with practically every online game. As I said, everyone can read it. And everyone is free not to accept those rules and look for another game. Though you will be very hard pressed to find one that does not have that line in their rules.
However, this whole discussion is a moot point anyway and not really going anywhere useful.
DeletedUser2274
Guest
Lol. Wow... it's a game. Chill out with all the legal crap and conspiracy theories. None of us care how long anyone plays, we only simply want to know that they've been active over the last few days. I agree with Dhurrin--- just looking for an argument, just for the heck of it.
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
Lol, I'm the one you were mostly "arguing" with, and I was fine with the discussion- I didn't think anyone was getting their panties in a twist.
While I'm sure that the world would be a better place if everyone just agreed with me immediately, it might get a little boring.