How would you change the Spire formula?

[edeba]

@CrazyWizard ,
If you both used stats from elvenstats and poll'd say 2-300 players.
enough data could be collected to reverse-engineer whatever
current formula is being used. If it were somehow randomized,
then by now more than a few ppl wouldda complained about
hitting a bad stretch of RNG...

The minmax formula is pretty good. Any player I've used it with is within about 1% of what it gives.

 

[edeba]

A main example is that the comment that people with more wonders outperform those with fewer shortly after the introduction of this mightmare in the tournaments. while I am sure it's true, they never asked themselves why is that? is that;
a. because the formula is no issue?
b. because those players on average are the tournament tigers, have therefore build up there wonders more and because of that is a more active tournament group by default and therefore screw the short term data?

If you never asked yourself why something is like the way it is, never look at the underlying data and just look at data with a biased perception and look at the parts you like. then you will never be able to properly analyse data anyway.
Like al the comments about the trash the formula is coming from thin air. and sure it takes time for the metagame to change. just because you changed the rules doesn't mean how the game is played changes overnight.

Just like the moonstone library, it was obvious day one that building would destroy scroll players, but it wasn't an issue for the first few months, it needed time to escalate into a metagame where it was a nuke of epic proportions. it took these boneheads 2 years to do what we asked day 1.
they ignored our pleas, comments, suggestions, to wait, see it go down the drain, then ignore our solutions because they have better ones, have meetings for another year or so. to come to the conclusion that the 5 minute fix we asked for day one, was by far the best solution.

How could such incompetent people ever be in charge of any kind of balance? its like the blind leading the blind.

Excellent assessment of the development team. I find them grossly inept at seeing the big picture, of which players of been accuse of not seeing the big picture.

I had to work my city massively harder to do well in the tournament with setting timers to maximize getting resources and that's a total burn out and it wasn't fun. And they aren't seeing or calculating in the effort by players. They basically penalized effort. I can't be bothered with setting timers to max when to use pet food for troops. The payback on effort just isn't there anymore.

 

[edeba]

it couldn't be as simple as ......
If Tpts>5000 then switch to harder formula

naaaaa, that would be way too easy ....

That's kind of dumb. It made casual players more likely to get 10 chests, but it hurt the players that are the financial base of the game the most.

 

[Myne]

@Myne I think I am confused. Minmax's spreadsheet does exactly this? So?

I have never seen minmax's figures.

 

[samidodamage]

@Myne
Here's a link to his Google spreadsheet for spire/tourneys
Here's a link to the forum thread where he explained why/what he was doing and gathered the data. I chose the 'part 2' thread because it contains a link to 'part 1' as his first line of the opening post.
Here's a link to his site (I selected 'spire' under tags for this page)
More math than you'll ever want, probably, lol! I don't even pretend to understand half of it. I was around when he was crowdsourcing the data and was able to follow that process and the questions/answers posed as he gathered the info. That gave me enough information to trust the credibility of the formula once he reverse engineered it.
I miss him

 

[Myne]

@Myne
Here's a link to his Google spreadsheet for spire/tourneys
Here's a link to the forum thread where he explained why/what he was doing and gathered the data. I chose the 'part 2' thread because it contains a link to 'part 1' as his first line of the opening post.
Here's a link to his site (I selected 'spire' under tags for this page)
More math than you'll ever want, probably, lol! I don't even pretend to understand half of it. I was around when he was crowdsourcing the data and was able to follow that process and the questions/answers posed as he gathered the info. That gave me enough information to trust the credibility of the formula once he reverse engineered it.
I miss him

Thanks for that. So, it has been done, and as you say, with more math than anyone can understand. LOL

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

Thanks for that. So, it has been done, and as you say, with more math than anyone can understand. LOL

Wes without the proof we could not claim that the formula is broken, we could only suspect
The formula was 100% perfect and now almost ferfect they made a tiny tweak. but it was too small to completly do the research again, the formula is now within about 1% accurate.

 

[crackie]

more math than anyone can understand

There are a few formulas at play. One calculates your costs for first encounter of Spire and another calculates costs for first encounter of tourney. This number is different for everyone depending on techs, wonders, plots, etc. Then the Spire and tourney each have their own progression table based off the first encounter numbers. As you go deeper into tourney or higher in Spire, the multiplier increases, with the difference between your stack size and enemy’s stack size growing wider in enemy’s favor. The progression multiplier is the SAME FOR EVERYONE, regardless of techs, wonders, plots, etc. The “difficulty” is up to individual players as to how deep in tourney or high on Spire they want to go since none of it is mandatory. Eventually though, the increase in cost of troops from unlocked techs outgrows the increase in troop production from military building upgrades in later chapters. Therefore, it becomes a matter of a player’s ability to replenish greater number of dead troops each week.

Funny how anytime we discuss the spire formula, it tends to veer off into tourney territory.

They are related, but Spire has an end whereas tourney is more open-ended. Players can do an insane amount of provinces if they have the stomach for it. The higher chapter players going really deep in tourneys feel the hurt the most bc they are extrapolating the effects of the progression formula the furthest. Hence, formula discussions tend to veer to tourney.

It does affect all players, it's just that not all players care.
As long as the units they produce outweight there limited use any increase in costs will not be felt. but that doesnt mean the cost increase ain't there.

If you only do 10 provinces you are affected but for you not in a meaningfull way. the formula on the other hand is set up that evetually even 10 provicies will be difficult for the average user. but it will take a while before it wil snowball that badly out of control

Yes, all of this. However, there is so much misunderstanding that people blame the formula for everything when sometimes, the problem is between the screen and the chair. For example, ALL players have a numbers advantage for the first 8 provinces of tourney, particularly the first 5. You can practically win the first 5 provinces blindfolded picking any combo of troops autofighting. Therefore, it’s not difficult to hit 1k in tourney just milking the first 5 provinces for several stars. If you can’t win even when you’re greatly outnumbering the enemy, the problem ain’t the formula. For the formula to outpace production of troops required for fighting just 5 provinces, you’d prob need to be in like chapter 60. Yet, there are people crying foul saying the formula is making things too difficult when they’re only doing 500pts or so. That’s rubbish. There are a lot of scenarios where people freak out in hysterics over the formula when they fall under “the effects won’t be felt”.

 

[Lyinaral]

When I started playing, I thought this was a building game the way it was advertised, but instead, it seems to focused on fighting in the Spire & Tourney, you have to pack so much bldgs. & such in your city to do that, so your city isn't pretty. I guess you have to chose between having troops & goods for Spire & Tourney or not having troops, just goods for your city not to be jammed packed.
I would rather that our decaying goods weren't used in the Spire, because it takes so much of them to do research & building. I know that it is hard to get enough to be able to do Research, much less use them in the Spire & you don't always have a lot of troops at that time either, without spending hours on the game.

 

[Myne]

There are a few formulas at play. One calculates your costs for first encounter of Spire and another calculates costs for first encounter of tourney. This number is different for everyone depending on techs, wonders, plots, etc. Then the Spire and tourney each have their own progression table based off the first encounter numbers. As you go deeper into tourney or higher in Spire, the multiplier increases, with the difference between your stack size and enemy’s stack size growing wider in enemy’s favor. The progression multiplier is the SAME FOR EVERYONE, regardless of techs, wonders, plots, etc. The “difficulty” is up to individual players as to how deep in tourney or high on Spire they want to go since none of it is mandatory. Eventually though, the increase in cost of troops from unlocked techs outgrows the increase in troop production from military building upgrades in later chapters. Therefore, it becomes a matter of a player’s ability to replenish greater number of dead troops each week.


They are related, but Spire has an end whereas tourney is more open-ended. Players can do an insane amount of provinces if they have the stomach for it. The higher chapter players going really deep in tourneys feel the hurt the most bc they are extrapolating the effects of the progression formula the furthest. Hence, formula discussions tend to veer to tourney.


Yes, all of this. However, there is so much misunderstanding that people blame the formula for everything when sometimes, the problem is between the screen and the chair. For example, ALL players have a numbers advantage for the first 8 provinces of tourney, particularly the first 5. You can practically win the first 5 provinces blindfolded picking any combo of troops autofighting. Therefore, it’s not difficult to hit 1k in tourney just milking the first 5 provinces for several stars. If you can’t win even when you’re greatly outnumbering the enemy, the problem ain’t the formula. For the formula to outpace production of troops required for fighting just 5 provinces, you’d prob need to be in like chapter 60. Yet, there are people crying foul saying the formula is making things too difficult when they’re only doing 500pts or so. That’s rubbish. There are a lot of scenarios where people freak out in hysterics over the formula when they fall under “the effects won’t be felt”.

OH, excellent post and explanations. "between the chair and the keyboard" sorry to say..that is truth. As far as the math goes, I will leave that to yall. Unless you want a quilt or sewing project calculated...then I am your girl. Also I am a mean transcriptionist and editor.

 

[BrinDarby]

When I started playing, I thought this was a building game the way it was advertised, but instead, it seems to focused on fighting in the Spire & Tourney, you have to pack so much bldgs. & such in your city to do that, so your city isn't pretty. I guess you have to chose between having troops & goods for Spire & Tourney or not having troops, just goods for your city not to be jammed packed.

So, so, true ... this is also a communal game, more than a city builder game.....
There are multiple places it seems, where many players pause to replenish
and @ the same time have an easier time keeping up for fellowship contributions.

 

[Myne]

When I started playing, I thought this was a building game the way it was advertised, but instead, it seems to focused on fighting in the Spire & Tourney, you have to pack so much bldgs. & such in your city to do that, so your city isn't pretty. I guess you have to chose between having troops & goods for Spire & Tourney or not having troops, just goods for your city not to be jammed packed.
I would rather that our decaying goods weren't used in the Spire, because it takes so much of them to do research & building. I know that it is hard to get enough to be able to do Research, much less use them in the Spire & you don't always have a lot of troops at that time either, without spending hours on the game.

OHHH it could be way worse. This game could allow raids where people steal your sh.....stuff. Inno's other games allow this. Hours and hours you have invested then POOF it's gone.