Ideal Trading Partners

[Katwick]

The World Map uses a 3x9=27 parallelogram of hexagonal cells.

Let's number the cities in the same sequence as the Relic that is in the cell immediately above the city.

1 M _ Marble
2 St _ Steel
3 P ._ Planks
4 C ._ Crystal
5 Sc_ Scrolls
6 Sl _ Silk
7 E ._ Elixir
8 D ._ Magic Dust
9 G ._ Gems

The block of 3x9=27 cells tiles (tessellates) the map vertically, and diagonally toward the upper left and lower right.

As a consequence, only 9 Relic/Boost combinations are feasible:
1 M_ C_ E
2 St_ Sc D
3 P _ Sl. G
4 St_ C_ E
5 P _ Sc D
6 M_ SI. G
7 St_ Sc E
8 P _ Sl. D
9 M_ C_ G

Based on https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/world-map-centers.28953/post-252700
and https://www.elvenstats.com/player/us7/849832222
1 M_ C_ E is at the center of each World Map.

The technique suggested at https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/world-map-centers.28953/post-252700
can be made less tedious by realizing that every city on the upper left to lower right diagonal, and every third city vertically, must be a 1 M_ C_ E city.

Here's a thread from 2016, that uses a less obvious city sequence, but yields the same boost combinations.
https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/there-are-only-9-possible-cities.5007/

Note that the weekly Tournaments follow this same Relic sequence, although the Tournament encounters now yield a mix of Relics. To fill in the missing cells, for Tournaments, simply add the Relic that's "missing" in each vertical sequence of 2 Towns and 3 Relics.

While the desktop version pops up a mouseover, in the mobile version you'll need to recognize the landscape.

If you want to review the pictures for each Relic cell, see
https://en.wiki.elvenar.com/index.php?title=World_Map

 

[Katwick]

You might want to peek at https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/world-map-centers.28953/post-261439
wherein we've shown how to use the Chrome Debugging Tools to look at the JSON code for each UserName.

In the related JSON code, we can see how the World Map coordinates are defined.

• R positive indicates a column of Cities to the RIGHT of center
• Q positive indicates a row of cities DOWNWARD from center
  • US4 Author Longbow is at -1,-2 (left, up)
  • US4 NativeBear is at 1,-2 (right, up)
  • US4 power flower is at -2,_ (left of center)
  • US4 Lewna is at (unlisted) 0,0 (map center)
  • US4 SparkyGGB is at 2,_ (right of center)
  • US4 Mple360 is at -1,1 (left, down)
  • US4 Emarin is at 1,1 (right, down)

The folks at https://www.elvenstats.com/players have an interesting teaser on their site:
"Coming Soon - enhanced ranking lists which will show details about each player such as boosts, technology chapter, etc."

Hopefully the new pages will support the information that we need to facilitate mutually beneficial Neighborhood Trades:

• No Fee (Discovered Neighbors plus undiscovered Fellowship Members)
• Technology Level (because needs change as a city advances)
• Boosts: The Relic sector immediately above a city completely determines all three boosts)

 

[StarLoad]

If I am not mistaken that message is VERY old like more than a year ago.

Ed

 

[Katwick]

Mine Sell For 9 6 4
(Nine .. Six ... Four)

Trading is a controversial topic. If you want to review the various hair-pulling contests, you might as well start
at https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/cross-trading.29776/post-248880
or https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/cross-trading.29776/post-250316
There's a lot of fuss and feathers about the exact ratios but, if the trade is my boosted for your boosted, any "unfairness" will wash out anyway.

I auto-fight my early encounters, and then negotiate until I run out of UNboosted goods, so I have an on-going need for large quantities of reliable trades.

The 1.5 ratio suggested by the Game Trader, for two star Cross Trade Values, is based on the number of Population+Culture+Manufacturing tiles that are required per unit of goods when everything is fully upgraded.

While there are a great many legitimate economic considerations, MUTUAL ADVANTAGE is always the secret sauce for reliable trades.

Posting trades, and using the notification log to keep track of your buyers, is a very effective technique, but:

• How do you ADVERTISE?
• How do you ENCOURAGE additional trades?

Rather than juggling the per unit
VALUES of 1 < 1.5 < 2.25
think about the equivalent unit
QUANTITIES of goods:
1/1 > 2/3 > 2/3*2/3
1/1 > 2/3 > 4/9

• 9 > 6 > 4 goods, or
• 90 > 60 > 40 goods, or
• 900 > 600 > 400 goods, or
• 9k > 6k> 4k goods

As 9ijk, 6ijk, & 4ijk are uncommon trade quantities, they can be used to ADVERTISE your desire for reliable trading partners, without in any way inhibiting casual trades.

BUT, how can you encourage ADDITIONAL trading partners?

The first step is to decide which goods you

• Need (unboosted)
• can Offer (boosted)

There are only 9 types of of cities, and Relics/Boosts are evenly distributed on the World Map, so you'll have EIGHTEEN mutually beneficial trades, six unboosted goods (including cross-trades) for each of your three boosted goods. As indicated at the top of this thread:

• City boosts are completely determined by the tile directly above the city
  • The desktop version of the game has a Relic/Boost mouseover
  • 
• Every city toward the upper left or lower right (45 degrees) will have the same Relics/Boosts
• Every third city toward the top or bottom of the map, will have the same Relics/Boosts

Only 9 Relic/Boost combinations are feasible:
1 M_ C_ E
2 St_ Sc D
3 P _ Sl. G
4 St_ C_ E
5 P _ Sc D
6 M_ SI. G
7 St_ Sc E
8 P _ Sl. D
9 M_ C_ G

So send a few in-game emails. You'll be surprised by how easy it is to find space to manufacture goods that you KNOW you can sell.

The same approach is a bit more cumbersome for Fellowship members, as you'll need to visit each of their cities, and look at their map.

 

[Deleted User - 849994935]

You'll be surprised by how easy it is to find space to manufacture goods that you KNOW you can sell.

Virtually all players already produce to their need. There's no advantage to over producing goods even if you know you can sell. Why waste space producing more goods than you need?

 

[Zoof]

Mine Sell For 9 6 4
(Nine .. Six ... Four)

Trading is a controversial topic. If you want to review the various hair-pulling contests, you might as well start at https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/cross-trading.29776/post-248880

I auto-fight my early encounters, and then negotiate until I run out of UNboosted goods, so I have an on-going need for large quantities of reliable trades.

The 1.5 ratio suggested by the Game Trader, for two star Cross Trade Values, is based on the number of Population+Culture+Manufacturing tiles that are required per unit of goods when everything is fully upgraded.

While there are a great many legitimate economic considerations, MUTUAL ADVANTAGE is always the secret sauce for reliable trades.

Posting trades, and using the notification log to keep track of your buyers, is a very effective technique, but:

• How do you ADVERTISE?
• How do you ENCOURAGE additional trades?

Rather than juggling the per unit
VALUES of 1 < 1.5 < 2.25
think about the equivalent unit
QUANTITIES of goods:
1/1 > 2/3 > 2/3*2/3
1/1 > 2/3 > 4/9

• 9 > 6 > 4 goods, or
• 90 > 60 > 40 goods, or
• 900 > 600 > 400 goods, or
• 9k > 6k> 4k goods

As 9ijk, 6ijk, & 4ijk are uncommon trade quantities, they can be used to ADVERTISE your desire for reliable trading partners, without in any way inhibiting casual trades.

BUT, how can you encourage ADDITIONAL trading partners?

The first step is to decide which goods you

• Need (unboosted)
• can Offer (boosted)

There are only 9 types of of cities, and Relics/Boosts are evenly distributed on the World Map, so you'll have EIGHTEEN mutually beneficial trades, six unboosted goods (including cross-trades) for each of your three boosted goods. As indicated at the top of this thread:

• City boosts are completely determined by the tile directly above the city
  • The desktop version of the game has a Relic/Boost mouseover
• Every city toward the upper left or lower right (45 degrees) will have the same Relics/Boosts
• Every third city toward the top or bottom of the map, will have the same Relics/Boosts

So send a few in-game emails. You'll be surprised by how easy it is to find space to manufacture goods that you KNOW you can sell.

The same approach is a bit more cumbersome for Fellowship members, as you'll need to visit each of their cities, and look at their map.

That's some good information regarding an analytical approach to optimizing your goods production to meet your own needs against the needs of the people around you with regards to cross-tier trading. I like how you can apply a bit of knowledge to then go ahead and gauge the prospective city's activity level by sending them that message in hopes of a (favorable, if any) reply. It's seems like it'd be quite a bit more on-point and reliable than the other approach I can think of which can produce optimizing results (that being the experimental one, where you shotgun the trader and take note of who picks up which one of your trade via notifications).

I also like how it bypasses much of the contention involved in trading by directly asking the other person involved what their preferences are in trades

 

[Katwick]

Why waste space producing more goods than you need?

Because you can produce Boosted goods for far less than 2/3rds of your neighbors, and trade for the other stuff.

How are you fulfilling your unboosted requirements?? Is it actually cheaper than trading boosted goods?

 

[Deleted User - 849994935]

Because you can produce Boosted goods for far less than 2/3rds of your neighbors, and trade for the other stuff.

I already do this. So does most everyone else. Producing more than I need is inefficient.

How are you fulfilling your unboosted requirements?? Is it actually cheaper than trading boosted goods?

I trade my boosted goods for unboosted so my unboosted goods cost me the same as my boosted goods.

 

[StarLoad]

Producing more than I need is inefficient.

Actually, that isn't totally true because at any single point in the game you may only need 15 or 20K in goods to cater or an upgrade and such, but I bet you have more than that. Because you know you will need more one day you build up a reserve and keep building it, You use it for more catering, and growth; and then in the higher chapters it starts asking for some serious amounts for tech upgrades. So in chapter 5, you are happy with a couple hundred thousand in goods but as a middle game player that would terrify you and you want to see 4 or 5M in goods and in later chapters you are comfy sitting on 10's of million in goods .

None of this even considers if you are helping new and low chapter players with good to grow and participate within your FS.

Ed

 

[Katwick]

I already do this. So does most everyone else. Producing more than I need is inefficient.

So, you're actually already producing MORE boosted goods than you need for your OWN city, and trading the excess for the unboosted goods that you need.

The interesting question is how much EXCESS inventory you're carrying, because you can't depend on seeing the needed trades "just in time", and what opportunities did you forego?

 

[Deleted User - 849994935]

So, you're actually already producing MORE boosted goods than you need for your OWN city, and trading the excess for the unboosted goods that you need.

Ur making a distinction w/out a difference.

The interesting question is how much EXCESS inventory you're carrying, because you can't depend on seeing the needed trades "just in time", and what opportunities did you forego?

I have a 'bottom line' that I monitor but generally expect my inventory to grow to meet the needs of a growing city. I trade simply and fairly.

When I had big cities I maintained a bigger inventory that fluctuated greatly because I regularly took 'at a loss' trades of small cities. This wasn't charity; it was an investment in my neighbourhood.

In either case, I never allowed my inventory to get so low that I was dependent on the trader to function.

 

[StarLoad]

The interesting question is how much EXCESS inventory you're carrying, because you can't depend on seeing the needed trades "just in time", and what opportunities did you forego?

2 issues one is the opportunity cost the other is just-in-time trading and while both are valid, here is how I see it.
1. Opportunity costs is based on the loss of one for another, in simple terms, since we are talking about standard goods the "cost" is the number of coins and supplies needed to make and the time it takes to make. In normal cities that "cost" amount should be fully recoverable within the time, it takes to produce the item. and if you have a sufficient amount of the needed "costs" in your storage you are not really missing any opportunity.
2. Just-in-time trading and this is a real issue in the game and happens all the time once you get to sentient goods and specifically when you need goods for a tech or building upgrade. However, this is not a trading partner issue as your trading partners are the entire server and in fact, you are more likely to use known or FS partners to fill any trades you need as the market at that level is shat, plain and simple.

Ed

 

[Katwick]

if you have a sufficient amount of the needed "costs" in your storage you are not really missing any opportunity.

This approach is, literally, a HUGE mistake, as "sufficient" typically means more than enough for this week, next week, and maybe the week after that.

Let's put some numbers to it, because we might actually be on the same page.

• The game requires a similar amount of goods in each category. There's no bias that favors a particular boost.
• A very common approach is to hammer away at Tournaments, Spires, and Special Events until you run short of something, and then move on.

The best time to balance your goods inventory is just AFTER you stall out. We could get into some heavy duty Supply Chain statistics, but a casual approach actually works pretty well.

• Eyeball your average amount of goods, all 18 kinds
• Anything that's 10% below the average is a bottleneck. You need more
• Anything that's 10% above the average is useless DEAD STORAGE, and a lost opportunity

If you can balance your inventory by simply posting a bunch of trades, great. If not. you'll need to develop additional reliable trading partners.

 

[Myne]

Virtually all players already produce to their need. There's no advantage to over producing goods even if you know you can sell. Why waste space producing more goods than you need?

comes in handy, that's why. I think the theme of this game is "you never know". lol I am not a proponent of loading your city with factories "just because" though. moderation in all things

 

[Myne]

This approach is, literally, a HUGH mistake, as "sufficient" typically means more than enough for this week, next week, and maybe the week after that.

Let's put some numbers to it, because we might actually be on the same page.

• The game requires a similar amount of goods in each category. There's no bias that favors a particular boost.
• A very common approach is to hammer away at Tournaments, Spires, and Special Events until you run short of something, and then move on.

The best time to balance your goods inventory is just AFTER you stall out. We could get into some heavy duty Supply Chain statistics, but a casual approach actually works pretty well.

• Eyeball your average amount of goods, all 18 kinds
• Anything that's 10% below the average is a bottleneck. You need more
• Anything that's 10% above the average is useless DEAD STORAGE, and a lost opportunity

If you can balance your inventory by simply posting a bunch of trades, great. If not. you'll need to develop additional reliable trading partners.

I agree, this approach is a mistake. What if, due to unforseen circumstances, your play is interrupted for a few days, or worse a week. You want to be able to catch up or continue play without being stymied. With a cushion, you are golden, without it you are just stuck.

 

[StarLoad]

This approach is, literally, a HUGH mistake, as "sufficient" typically means more than enough for this week, next week, and maybe the week after that.

Let's put some numbers to it, because we might actually be on the same page.

• The game requires a similar amount of goods in each category. There's no bias that favors a particular boost.
• A very common approach is to hammer away at Tournaments, Spires, and Special Events until you run short of something, and then move on.

The best time to balance your goods inventory is just AFTER you stall out. We could get into some heavy duty Supply Chain statistics, but a casual approach actually works pretty well.

• Eyeball your average amount of goods, all 18 kinds
• Anything that's 10% below the average is a bottleneck. You need more
• Anything that's 10% above the average is useless DEAD STORAGE, and a lost opportunity

If you can balance your inventory by simply posting a bunch of trades, great. If not. you'll need to develop additional reliable trading partners.

I completely disagree with the three bolded statements and I will explain

1. You are applying your standard to my city and my approach to the game, so in my view it is not a huge mistake, but prudent playing.

2. There is a very clear bias in the game as soon as you reach sentient goods and MANY techs are fixed upon unique goods no matter your boost I am making all the soap I can but for most of the tech's I have had to trade for shrooms over and over.

3. My coin and supply are at maximum and I buy KP every day and have reduced the number of my W/S and they still sit full after a 24 hour production cycle waiting for me to use them on MFG goods that I can give away in trade or troops. I do this 24/7 and it still does not reduce the numbers. Therefore there is no lost opportunity cost and this would apply to just about any high-level player that has full coin and supply storage.

Ed

 

[crackie]

My cities started out on the fringe of the world where I can see where civilization ends and endless desert began. I had problems trading starting out, but looking back, it was less about the map and more the fact that I was in poorly run fellowships. Heck, I even had an AM who wouldn’t build more boosted factories to help relieve our FA’s plank shortage even though he was our biggest city because he didn’t trust relying on us for his trades (pro tip: don’t play for AM that doesn’t trust his own FS). I would have trade agreements with neighbors too because I couldn’t rely on my FS for trades. As I grew and learned to choose FS better though, I was still on the same map, but didn’t have issues with trade anymore. I can’t say enough how a FS changes the nature of the game. I wish more beginners would stop staying in FS they have outgrown over some mistakened sense of loyalty. Once you’ve played in a functional FS, you’ll understand the FS owes you a quality gaming experience too and need to deliver just as much. If your FS is floundering, you don’t owe them anything! They need to work harder at retaining you. It’s a player’s market. You get to be as picky as you want.

Both of my cities have since been moved on the map and now my same tier trades get taken faster now than even my FS can grab them. I am still making more than I need, to the point where I can put factories away for FA and still have plenty to give away to teammates in need. Now if someone has trouble trading, I would ask (a) where are your teammates? And (b) are you listing your own trades or window shopping?

 

[Katwick]

Lost Opportunities

Therefore there is no lost opportunity cost and this would apply to just about any high-level player that has full coin and supply storage.

Excessive manufactured goods are merely an obvious example of a fundamental principle. If you have STUFF that you carry over, week after week, you should retune your city and techniques. The surest way to avoid DEAD STORAGE is to use routine, fairly small trades.

A lost opportunity is the "path not taken."

 

[crackie]

Excessive manufactured goods are merely an obvious example of a fundamental principle. If you have STUFF that you carry over, week after week, you should retune your city and techniques. The surest way to avoid DEAD STORAGE is to use routine, fairly small trades.

A lost opportunity is the "path not taken."

A moment of silence for my dead storage, particularly my T1’s after an FA. I am sorry I have killed you with all that sparkling. I did not know you had a pre-existing condition where you could die on me. Was it inviting 7 more of your friends out for the week or the use of time instants that did it? Perhaps it was feeding Storm Phoenix that put you over the edge? I am so so sorry in my single-minded pursuit of making jewelry all week. Why can’t you just practice self-care like your sentient brother or mana sister and just decay? I promised I wouldn’t cry...

The good news is my coin rain storage is thriving!

 

[StarLoad]

If you have STUFF that you carry over, week after week, you should retune your city and techniques.

Again you are telling me how to play my city your way and not my way.

I can store all my MFG and then store all my residences and workshops. Put my sentient goods to bed. Then what do I do with all that extra space? Oh I can fill it with bldgs I have never used, or more sets out of storage, even a few evolving bldgs that only have 5 artifacts and what will that do, well it will likely increase my Orc, seed, and Mana stores and add more coins and supplies, and then what? Then I start looking for a game that gives me something to do cause once I gut my city the ONLY use for it is an FA Farm filled with T1 mfg and Level 1 W/S, and I could make hundreds of them puppies.

Maybe your idea would work for a chap 4 or 5 city that is struggling but not something that will work in a city with a good and supportive FS.

Ed
Looking like this