Needles of the Tempest vs Martial Monastery

[Nyrva]

Hello,

My city is an Elven city on Winyandor. And I'm near the end of Chapter VII.

I'm wondering at this stage if I'm better off nixing my Needles of the Tempest which only provides a benefit to light ranged troops and no additional benefits, as opposed to the Martial Monastery I have which grants a health buff to all troops and provides some culture along with it? But I always try to side with what's more practical.

I mean I've been disenchanting my phoenix buildings since I already have AWs that perform the same basic functions when I'm kind of cramming for space right now.

Just wanting to know what other people do with their choices on the AWs, please. Thanks.


p.s. - one unrelated question for Chapter VIII:

It seems my level 19 residences, which I have many, that currently take 4x2 spaces on the grid, will get a 250 population boost per house with the next chapter, but require a 4x3 space on the grid.

Am I correct in thinking I will be able to scale back a bit on the number of houses I have without hurting my overall population and ranking too much? Although the net gain for necessary upgrades in chapter VIII still needs to be possible.

But for instance, I had to sacrifice one of my 3 Level 15 Silk factories to upgrade one of them to level 16-- which required 900 population. The population gains and ranking losses in sacrificing my one building, were recovered when I upgraded another of my 3 buildings to level 16, it took back the 900 population and gave me back the ranking I lost selling the first factory.

So I'm wondering if upgrading houses in Chapter VIII will work the same way if I have to sacrifice a few of them for space?

Again, thanks.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

I'm wondering at this stage if I'm better off nixing my Needles of the Tempest which only provides a benefit to light ranged troops and no additional benefits, as opposed to the Martial Monastery I have which grants a health buff to all troops and provides some culture along with it? But I always try to side with what's more practical.

Do you fight in tournaments or at all? If yes, don't scrap the Needles! You forgot the most important benefit - increased barracks troops production. This is huge! I used to be like you, somewhat dismissive of the Needles seeing them primarily as LR boost. This is really not that important. But the speed boost is huge. Now it is probably my most important AW overall.

For instance, L7 Needles gives 32.5% speed boost to all barracks productions. Think about that - with L7 Needles you can produce 1/3 more troops than without (assuming you're able to keep 24/7 production in both cases). Remember, there is no really efficient way of increasing your troop production after you maxed out your barracks (there are some AWs and event buildings that give you some troops, but they don't really move the needle until much later). Compare that with L7 MM, which gives you less than 10% health boost (and is more expensive to level up). While extra health is nice, and will allow you to win some unwinnable-before fights, overall having 30%+ more troops is way better, at least for tournaments. And you have craftable building that gives you +25% health for 5 days. That's about the same as L25 MM

I mean I've been disenchanting my phoenix buildings since I already have AWs that perform the same basic functions when I'm kind of cramming for space right now.

I think this is a big mistake. Maxed phoenixes are better than many high-level AWs. I don't get a point about space - they take no space until summoned. If you don't have space right now, just keep it in the inventory, What are you going to do with your spell fragments that is better than Phoenixes, even if you only deploy them later on?

Am I correct in thinking I will be able to scale back a bit on the number of houses I have without hurting my overall population and ranking too much? Although the net gain for necessary upgrades in chapter VIII still needs to be possible.

You're correct. You'll be able to drop quite a few residences when upgrading them in the Orcs chapter.

 

[Dopeykr]

A maxed out Fire Phoenix will create unmatched potential to your fighting. Just don't forget to feed it for the extra umph.

 

[DeletedUser9601]

The reality is that, if you want to excel in tournaments, you're going to build and level every military AW at some point or another. At the end of Chapter 7, you should really have every AW except:
-thrones of the high men (always crap unless/until you're like a top 25 ranked player)
-watchtower ruins (not terrible, but culture just isn't that hard to come by)
-crystal lighthouse (not terrible, but not great, and if you have active neighbors/FS members, its usefulness decreases)
-blooming trader guild (worth it as a level 1 AW, but probably not great to level, especially if you scout constantly).
Just imo, but generally build everything else, and get your city used to accommodating the space needs these AWs impose.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

A maxed out Fire Phoenix will create unmatched potential to your fighting. Just don't forget to feed it for the extra umph.

Yeah, once you can max it out in another year, after the next Event that gives out the evolution material. It takes 9 of those Phoenix fragment things to evolve it all the way to the max level of 10.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

The reality is that, if you want to excel in tournaments, you're going to build and level every military AW at some point or another. At the end of Chapter 7, you should really have every AW except:
-thrones of the high men (always crap unless/until you're like a top 25 ranked player)
-watchtower ruins (not terrible, but culture just isn't that hard to come by)
-crystal lighthouse (not terrible, but not great, and if you have active neighbors/FS members, its usefulness decreases)
-blooming trader guild (worth it as a level 1 AW, but probably not great to level, especially if you scout constantly).
Just imo, but generally build everything else, and get your city used to accommodating the space needs these AWs impose.

Agree on the first 3, but why BTG is here? And how is it connected with scouting? Perhaps you meant Tome of Secrets, is that the case?

 

[SoggyShorts]

BTG has been replaced by trading posts.
The BTG does nothing between portals and is big, and soaks KP.

Also I agree very much with everything minimax and tedious posted

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

BTG has been replaced by trading posts.

Who knows if we can easily farm PPs in the future. But more importantly, who doesn't want to have a giant bee in their city?

 

[Nyrva]

Do you fight in tournaments or at all? If yes, don't scrap the Needles! You forgot the most important benefit - increased barracks troops production. This is huge! I used to be like you, somewhat dismissive of the Needles seeing them primarily as LR boost. This is really not that important. But the speed boost is huge. Now it is probably my most important AW overall.

For instance, L7 Needles gives 32.5% speed boost to all barracks productions. Think about that - with L7 Needles you can produce 1/3 more troops than without (assuming you're able to keep 24/7 production in both cases). Remember, there is no really efficient way of increasing your troop production after you maxed out your barracks (there are some AWs and event buildings that give you some troops, but they don't really move the needle until much later). Compare that with L7 MM, which gives you less than 10% health boost (and is more expensive to level up). While extra health is nice, and will allow you to win some unwinnable-before fights, overall having 30%+ more troops is way better, at least for tournaments. And you have craftable building that gives you +25% health for 5 days. That's about the same as L25 MM


I think this is a big mistake. Maxed phoenixes are better than many high-level AWs. I don't get a point about space - they take no space until summoned. If you don't have space right now, just keep it in the inventory, What are you going to do with your spell fragments that is better than Phoenixes, even if you only deploy them later on?


You're correct. You'll be able to drop quite a few residences when upgrading them in the Orcs chapter.

Yes, unfortunately I can't undo it now. I've already disenchanted the phoenix buildings and the first grand prize I won, thinking my military AWs would be superior once I upgrade them more.

I mean I can save the rest of the grand prizes in the event I get another drop of a military-based phoenix building along the way.

But I for AWs I have:

Tome of Secrets (considering selling off- the 1 KP every 24 hours is nice but I get 20-30 a day between normal drops and additional other methods.)
Golden Abyss (level 14)
Mountain Halls
Needles of the Tempest
Watchtower Ruins
Martial Monastery
and
Crystal Lighthouse

Based on what these give me, I didn't consider that the Phoenix buildings would provide any further advantage. but I admit this is my first city. So I'm just wondering what people think.

Also, good to know about being able to reduce the number of houses, where I can make a little space and retain net population and ranking once I start upgrading- even have a net increase.

The reality is that, if you want to excel in tournaments, you're going to build and level every military AW at some point or another. At the end of Chapter 7, you should really have every AW except:
-thrones of the high men (always crap unless/until you're like a top 25 ranked player)
-watchtower ruins (not terrible, but culture just isn't that hard to come by)
-crystal lighthouse (not terrible, but not great, and if you have active neighbors/FS members, its usefulness decreases)
-blooming trader guild (worth it as a level 1 AW, but probably not great to level, especially if you scout constantly).
Just imo, but generally build everything else, and get your city used to accommodating the space needs these AWs impose.

I do scout a lot. I listed my AWs in this response. I do have the Watchtower Ruins and Crystal Lighthouse. But I did not build Thrones of the High Men or Endless Excavation for sure- I saw no real advantage to those.

But the question is-- do you play on PC or phone?

I have found the Crystal Lighthouse (or Great Bell Spire if you have a human city apparently) seems pointless only if you do not play on the PC version of the game. (Which I do play on PC) as that actually gives you additional bonus gains of boosted tier goods when you provide neighborly help on anyone who has the "gold hands" and get a chest drop. But the chests do not drop on the phone version of the game, only on PC. Just as you cannot view other people's cities on the phone version, but you can on the PC version.

I know you also cannot contribute KP to other people's AWs or receive chests for having done so on the phone version, but you can on PC.
I know this from having tried both versions of the game.

Why does its usefulness decrease for having active FS members? I have found by upgrading it, the amount of rewards in NH chests, both in map cities and in active FS cities, increases for anyone you help with "gold hands".

Watchtower Ruins? I've discovered that my NH culture benefit remains at 125% or better much longer for having that AW, which helps my workshops stay buffed. I found before I put mine in I had a harder time staying at 125% or better.

This has been my experience so far.

I've been eyeing up Prosperity Towers and Blooming Traders Guild for additional AWs.

I've considered scrapping my Tome of Secrets.

Any thoughts on that?

 

[Mykan]

Like others, if you plan on doing lots in tournaments you will want all military wonders. lots of other good wonder to help save space too, which you have many.

I will let @SoggyShorts run you through the benefits of Tome of secrets and endless excavation. In terms of watchtower and lighthouse I say keep em. They work nicely together for the culture buff.

Lighthouse - I think tedious is referring to a good fellowship provides lots of culture help so the wonder is less useful. I find the opposite in that it boosts a good fellowship due to the longer help time. So I can have more culture items buffed for longer or keep all buffed and get help on builders or MH.

Watchtower provides a lot of culture and the help to other culture building does add up. It isn't that costly to upgrade to lvl 6 which helps it to stay relevant as other culture items become available. Between my MM and watchtower I have something like 40% of my culture needs taken care of in 2 buildings, and that is not counting the extra culture boost to buffed buildings. I find I need less culture buildings due to this wonder.

Prosperity towers is a given. More supplies, saves a workshop and increases PoP spells which if you use regularly can save a lot more than 1 workshop, aka space.

Blooming Trader has moved from a good wonder to one that is really hard to justify. I keep mine cause it is level 6 otherwise I probably wouldn't build it, just too low in priority. If you can craft or obtain PP spells they really do nullify this wonder.

 

[The Unbeliever]

@OP: Try and contact support about your Phoenix buildings.
If you tell them that you made an honest mistake by disenchanting them, they *might* be able to restore them to you. (or maybe at least the Fire Phoenix if you specify it)

It may work, it may not. But if you don't try, then there's exactly 0.000000000% chance you'll likely ever see this building again.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

If you tell them that you made an honest mistake by disenchanting them, they *might* be able to restore them to you. (or maybe at least the Fire Phoenix if you specify it)

You can try, but I highly doubt they would do it. It's a slippery slope

Anecdotally, one of our fellows accidentally sold L25 building by misclicking (game froze temporarily or something like that). She tried to contact support to restore it, but the answer was no. She spent more than a week building and leveling it back

But as phoenix is not something you can rebuild/re-acquire yourself (so far), perhaps they will be more lenient.

 

[DeletedUser9601]

Agree on the first 3, but why BTG is here? And how is it connected with scouting? Perhaps you meant Tome of Secrets, is that the case?

If you’re constantly scouting, then you’re going to have more expansions than a particular guest race “requires.” So use that extra expansion or two to throw down some more guest race buildings, and level a better wonder.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

If you’re constantly scouting, then you’re going to have more expansions than a particular guest race “requires.” So use that extra expansion or two to throw down some more guest race buildings, and level a better wonder.

I see what you mean. Well, this approach works for all-you-can-eat-space chapters (Orcs, Woodelves etc). Doesn't work in S&D as the max structure is fixed. PPs still work though, outside of portal upgrades.

Basically, if you're constrained by inputs into portal goods production (e.g. apprentices, mana for mana tears etc) and not the production capacity itself, the extra space does you no good - but BTG helps. PPs mostly short-circuit it though as they remove the need for production altogether (so you don't need input either).

 

[mucksterme]

I disagree with much of what minimax and tedious said

but

I agree 100% with this

BTG has been replaced by trading posts.
The BTG does nothing between portals and is big, and soaks KP.

Also I agree very much with everything minimax and tedious posted

And
I also like having the giant bumble bee in my AW collection

My current favorite military AW is Victory Springs

Make dogs more vicious? Yes please.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Scholar
The absolute worst wonders are imo:

• Maze/Enars-every event offers a building that is far far better per square at mana production.
• Thrones- not terrible for culture, but every KP invested would better be spent elsewhere.
• Blooming trader- if you win 1 trading post per event you are better off than having a level 11 BTG. And you save 17 squares. No, the wholesale reduction isn't great, go buy KP instead
• Pyramid-craft a vallorian vallor or 2 instead. It needs to be at least level 9 to beat VV, and those KP could be better spent.
• LoGN- very niche wonder with a fatal flaw: you need buffs on mana buildings which generally arent your best culture buildings. If someone has a strategy where this wonder makes sense, I'd love to hear it.
• Sunset towers- this wonder comes far too late to be of any use. The need for seeds drops dramatically in Amuni, so if there isn't a massive increase in seed requirements for chapter 14 it's a rather pointless wonder.

Then come the other culture wonders. If you like the super efficient culture&pop hybrids from events and get about 30-40%+ of your pop from them, then you will have no need for pure culture buildings in your city meaning the watch tower and lighthouse combo has no value as you won't need any culture buffs to hit 150% bonus- this is an especially effective strategy for players in more casual FS where they can't count on a lot of visits as they will see a better return after about 20-30% pop from hybrids.
If, for some reason, you don't do events, or choose other event buildings than the hybrids, then YMMV.

"No brainers"

• EE, PT, ToS. Each of them are better than workshops at level 1(with extremely rare exceptions like making bread 24/7, only collecting from PT once a day, and 72H+ scout times)
• Shrewdly shrooms- this building is an absolute must have if you want to use military. Even at level 1 it's better than a third armory, and it takes up zero pop.
• Dwarven bulwark-generally KP invested in the shrewdly is better than the dwarven bulwark, but you might unlock the bulwark months earlier which makes this a great wonder until then, and if you level it, it's not worth deleting.
• Needles-again, only military, but most troops come from barracks, and once you reach a point where your barracks level is always at max, then the only way to get more troops is this wonder(or crafting)
• Monastery/sanctuary after the shrewdly this is hands down the best military wonder. The only way to gain an advantage over the enemy in tournaments is to have buffed troops, and this is the only wonder that buffs all of them.
• Mountain halls- any build that has at least 6 factories is better off building a MThall than building a 7th factory. The more factories the better it is, and that's not even counting the pop it gives you.
• Golden abyss-as mentioned above, once this gives better pop per square than a house (around chapter 5/6) it's an obvious win.

Special mention

• Dragon abbey-a really cool wonder where you can get instant mana by spamming spells. The problem is that crafting might get better and better and the CC spell doesn't give mana. Also, you need to run your magic academy pretty much 24/7 to build up enough spells to make it useful meaning a greater commitment to the tournament for needed relics. Finally, you can't really use this as your only mana source and use spells often( like constant PoP or MM)
• All other military wonders. If you get heavy into the tournaments, then you'll want to start adding in either the wonders that shore up your weak spots (human heavy ranged+toads) or doubles down on your strengths (dogs+victory springs) as space allows.
• Elvenar trade center- good for getting needed seeds in elementals, but much less needed in Amuni...but the boost to MM is quite powerful, so I'd say it's playstyle dependent.

A quick note about the "build them all" strategy: it's true that every wonder is better than not having it(ignoring space efficiency), but if you build them all then you will largely have luck dictate which ones you can level up.
Without some skipped wonders like the lighthouse or thrones that you can use to smash runes and fill wanted wonders, you need a combination of luck, patience or diamonds to get the runes you need.

Edit: mobile only this week, so nothing specifically new but still good info I think.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

Views on AWs are highly personal I mostly agree with what Soggy said, but have somewhat different perspective on some items:

• Maze - I think it's power is not in mana production (it's indeed somwhat meh), but in mana conservation. This is a boon for hoarders like yourself, who wait for a while in between chapters Let's say you produce 200K/mana a day. Standard 10% decay means that you can build up your mana inventory up to 2mm. If you have L17 Maze at 5% decay, you can build out your mana reserve up to 4mm. That's a lot of extra mana at your disposal at the beginning of a new chapter! You need a lot of extra mana generation capacity to achieve the same result (2x in this case). Just to be clear, I am not necessarily suggesting upgrading Maze that high, 5% vs 10% makes math easier While you're progressing through chapters and your mana reserves are low, Maze indeed probably doesn't do a whole lot for you.
• Thrones - I think it's terrible for culture. With 100 AW levels (quite a bit) and L6 Thrones you have a 4x6 building with 4,500 culture, or 187.5 per tile. Come on, Eternal Street tiles are almost that at 176, and Autumn Greetings from Woodelves is 190. I am not even touching event buildings that would have much much higher culture. Terrible, just terrible
• BTG - there is a giant bee. Enough said
• Dwarven Bulwark - I still haven't built it finishing Woodelves. I am going to, but it seems to me that it's power comes quite a bit later. Unlike Shrewdy (which is indeed a much better Armory substitute until that point), DB is based on squad size and gets better faster than Shrewdy later in the game. Free troops won't move the needle at lower levers. And the downside is that DB has massive footprint. Bottom line, I am not sure it is worth it until quite a bit later (S&D/Halflings)?
• Mountain Halls - I am actually quite disappointed in this AW. It's big, the shape is awkward, and production increase is pretty tiny. Not sure how you came up with MH replacing 7th factory. The way I see it, L1 MH provides a whopping 3.5% production increase, while L6 gives 7%. Bohoo! Just for pop, there are better ways to increase that, given footprint and other requirements.

And

A quick note about the "build them all" strategy: it's true that every wonder is better than not having it(ignoring space efficiency), but if you build them all then you will largely have luck dictate which ones you can level up.

I am not sure about that. I get tons of runes and shards from tournaments (30+ runes for all AWs many chapters ahead even), and you can get shards from a number of buildings. I strongly suspect that speed with which you can collect KPs for 5 levels of upgrades past L5 would be slower than ability to accumulate necessary runes/shards. This is just a hunch though, and might be different if you want to go high into 1-2 AWs instead of going wide.

 

[Ashrem]

Views on AWs are highly personal I mostly agree with what Soggy said, but have somewhat different perspective on some items:
Maze - I think it's power is not in mana production (it's indeed somwhat meh), but in mana conservation. This is a boon for hoarders like yourself, who wait for a while in between chapters Let's say you produce 200K/mana a day. Standard 10% decay means that you can build up your mana inventory up to 2mm. If you have L17 Maze at 5% decay, you can build out your mana reserve up to 4mm. That's a lot of extra mana at your disposal at the beginning of a new chapter! You need a lot of extra mana generation capacity to achieve the same result (2x in this case). Just to be clear, I am not necessarily suggesting upgrading Maze that high, 5% vs 10% makes math easier While you're progressing through chapters and your mana reserves are low, Maze indeed probably doesn't do a whole lot for you.

My perspective on Maze is that the same number of squares of grape vines, if you only manage to collect them 3 times a day (and therefore lose 25% of their production), produce 13,500 mana per day. A level one maze doesn't beat that in savings until you have 1,125,000 mana on hand. You'd have to be pretty dedicated to sitting around before a level one MoDM is a good deal.

 

[DeletedUser9601]

Runes are plentiful for aws you unlocked a few chapters ago. But once you hit Elementals and onward, you are splitting random runes across 20 plus wonders. So. 5% chance of the runs you want.

It’s not the end of the world, but it’s pretty easy to get rune locked if you are active in tournaments and want to push a recently unlocked wonder to level 11.

It’s not impossible to overcome, but you might be waiting a few weeks to a month to get enough runes and shards.

 

[Deleted User - 3932582]

My perspective on Maze is that the same number of squares of grape vines, if you only manage to collect them 3 times a day (and therefore lose 25% of their production), produce 13,500 mana per day. A level one maze doesn't beat that in savings until you have 1,125,000 mana on hand. You'd have to be pretty dedicated to sitting around before a level one MoDM is a good deal.

I meant in between chapters like between Amuni and Constructs. You're dedicated to sitting around because there is nothing else to do except prep up for the next chapter - if you want to blitz it. Which is highly situational. I am not arguing the point that for the most part it is a poor value AW, I was pointing a scenario where it may make sense.