News from Discord - May Contain Info!

[MichaelMichael]

I do wish you'd listen. The problem is the cost in Spell Fragments and Royal Restorations are too high to support AW upgrades. Production from the Spire and tourney are insufficient to support upgrades. The change is unfair - new players can never reach the same heights as today's most highly developed players.

 

[Silver Lady]

Yes, it’s not the changes to the buffs/rewards given by the AW that I object to it’s the cost! We can’t help new cities because you can’t trade Spell Fragments, CCs or Royal Restorations and even bigger cities are going to struggle with the SF & RR cost! They are just too high!

I decided to give it a month before making any final decision but if something doesn’t change in relation to the cost, we’ll…

 

[Fayeanne]

Now: it gives only Relics that you actually need to boost your Goods production

Genuine question:
The three relics for your boosts are deliberately not used for crafting (so that you aren't hurting your production to create enchantments and such). So once a player reaches enough relics to get the maximum 700% boost in each of their three boosted goods, of what use is this relic reward at all?

 

[Yavimaya]

Genuine question:
The three relics for your boosts are deliberately not used for crafting (so that you aren't hurting your production to create enchantments and such). So once a player reaches enough relics to get the maximum 700% boost in each of their three boosted goods, of what use is this relic reward at all?

I was having a hard time thinking of an answer but knew there must be some type of use or reason they are in the game at all past that. They will be useful for event quests and for any season quests that say gain so many relics or so many of this type of relic! Also, a new use for them might be in the works.

 

[Glandeh]

Those relics were used to upgrade wonders, if my memery serves me right. Now you can only collect them and hope for a future use.

 

[AussieChick]

I believe you still need relics every 5th level of the AW?

 

[quin629]

I believe you still need relics every 5th level of the AW?

No. You still need to fill the Rune Wheel every 5th AW level, but then the additional cost is an increasing # of RRs. No more relics needed.

 

[Pheryll]

Genuine question:
The three relics for your boosts are deliberately not used for crafting (so that you aren't hurting your production to create enchantments and such). So once a player reaches enough relics to get the maximum 700% boost in each of their three boosted goods, of what use is this relic reward at all?

I looked at the wonder and it is worded in an interesting way. It says "Rewards relics every time you received a Mystical Object from crafting. The relic type depends on which Production Boosts you have already unlocked (which you can also check in the Main Hall)." Given that the wonders are not available until after you have unlocked all standard goods boosts, the implication is that the wonder could give relics corresponding to sentient or ascended goods boosts when they are unlocked. Does anyone have an endless excavation in a city that produces sentient/ascended goods?

 

[iamthouth]

Not sure, I have a lvl 35 EE (and I'm end of Ch21), but it doesn't say which relics you receive now. And I'm not producing any Mystical Objects, as I now need to save all Spell Fragments for Wonder upgrades. I don't recall which relics I received previously.

 

[Rp44]

Yes, the one time I tested it out it gave me silk relics, which is my S2 boost. I just assumed that meant the relics were random.

 

[BrinDarby]

Solaris - US — 01/23/2024 at 4:04 AM​

Ancient Wonders Improvements​

Alot of info, but you didn't address the 800lb Gorrilla
in the room..... -- Upgrade Costs -- @-Solaris-

 

[Astram]

Alot of info, but you didn't address the 800lb Gorrilla
in the room..... -- Upgrade Costs -- @-Solaris-

Simply put we dont have any new information to share. When we do have information we will share.

 

[Henroo]

I do wish you'd listen. The problem is the cost in Spell Fragments and Royal Restorations are too high to support AW upgrades. Production from the Spire and tourney are insufficient to support upgrades. The change is unfair - new players can never reach the same heights as today's most highly developed players.

I actually think the spell fragments will be the hardest thing in the long run. A new player can construct 1 Moonstone Library set. This will give them 525 SF and 1 CC daily. As far as I know, these are the only buildings that produce spell fragments on a daily basis. And there have been no new mechanisms introduced to let you get additional frags. So I think these are going to be hard to come by in large enough quantities for a new player. There is an obvious solution to this: introduce new buildings which make spell fragments on a daily basis. Or: un-restrict the Moonstone set from being limited to 1 copy. After all, when they took it out of the spire and put it in the magic academy it was still making scrolls for everybody. Limiting new players to 1 copy of it was the first attempt to solve the scroll issue. Now that it no longer gives everybody scrolls, this imbalance no longer exists.

However, there have been multiple evolving buildings which offer 1 CC daily. Furthermore, in the upcoming event there is a 3x3 evolving building that gives 1 CC daily. And they have made the changes that selling some existing buildings will give you CCs instead of gold or supplies. Because of this, I think newer players will not have as many problems with CCs as they do with SF.

I'm not even sure if Royal Restorations will be as much of an issue as you think. You can now get RRs by selling old magic residence/workshops, and a number of expiring buildings like: Genie, Dwarven Armorer, Ferris Wheel Galore, Carting Library, and Goddess of Wishes. Over the last 5 years, I've used a LOT of these buildings. It would probably equal hundreds of Royal Restorations. Think of it this way: you get a Goddess of Wishes at the end of every event if you complete it fully. Now that is worth 2 extra RRs. It looks like fellowship adventures are going to give 2 Carting Libraries and 1 Ferris Wheel moving forward. So every FA is now worth 4 extra RRs. Winning a Dwarven Armorer in the spire is now worth 2 extra RRs. I do have doubts that these extra RRs will completely compensate for the new requirements to build and upgrade ancient wonders. But I think it will help more than most realize and will reduce the issue.

What the change to ancient wonders is REALLY going to hurt is casual players or solo players. If you want ancient wonders, playing solo is no longer a viable option. And for that matter, if you want AWs then playing in a casual fellowship is really no longer an option. You really need to be in a FS that gets at least 10 chests weekly. A FS that gets some bonus chests on a weekly basis is even better since each bonus chest is an extra RR. In the past, not being in a high performing tournament FS did not severely restrict your ability to build and upgrade AWs. Now not being in one DOES. Likewise, the Spire is pretty much mandatory if you want to build and upgrade AWs. It is one of the biggest sources of CCs and spell framents in the game. If you want to build and upgrade AWs, you pretty much now have to go hard in the spire. It just seems to me like these changes force players into being hardcore tournament and spire players. This does not affect me, I already am a big tournament and spire player. However, I do recognize that there are many other players who don't like the tournament and (especially) the spire. The changes to AWs pretty much wrecks the casual playstyle which does not do much tournament and spire.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

I can tolerate the fragments and the CCs, but requiring RRs at all for AW upgrades is what annoys me the most. I currently don't have any of my built AWs at less than level 21, but every one of those will eventually reach level 25 or level 30 and not be upgraded again, as I refuse to spend 30 or 35 RRs to go to level 26 or level 31. I am also unlikely to build any new AWs, not unless I think it is something I cannot live without.

 

[Henroo]

I can tolerate the fragments and the CCs, but requiring RRs at all for AW upgrades is what annoys me the most. I currently don't have any of my built AWs at less than level 21, but every one of those will eventually reach level 25 or level 30 and not be upgraded again, as I refuse to spend 30 or 35 RRs to go to level 26 or level 31. I am also unlikely to build any new AWs, not unless I think it is something I cannot live without.

It takes a new way of thinking about the game. Look at it this way. The level 25 rune phase takes 30 RRs. The level 30 takes 35 RRS. By comparison: upgrading a standard 4x4 evolving building 2 chapters will take 32 RRs. I think the figures of 30, 32, and 35 are close enough that it is fair to compare them.
So you can: 1. spend either 30 or 35 RRs to get an AW through a rune phase. This will increase the power of the AW some and will unlock 4 further potential advances. Granted, these 4 advances will take KP and a lot of spell fragments and CCS. But they are going to be available without spending any more RRs. or 2: You can spend 32 RRs to upgrade an evolving building 2 chapters. Or you could spend those same 32 RRs and upgrade 2 different evolving buildings 1 chapter each.
What every player is going to need to ask themself is: which benefits my city more? Getting that advanced AW through rune phase? Or 2 evolving building upgrades? And honestly, there is not going to be a hard and fast answer here. It is going to depend on a variety of factors, such as play style, which ancient wonder, and which evolving buildings.

 

[BrinDarby]

I'm not even sure if Royal Restorations will be as much of an issue as you think.

And for that matter, if you want AWs then playing in a casual fellowship is really no longer an option.

In the past, not being in a high performing tournament FS did not severely restrict your ability to build and upgrade AWs. Now not being in one DOES.

The changes to AWs pretty much wrecks the casual playstyle which does not do much tournament and spire.

Henroo, I've been around almost as long as you have, and I've
made much different choices. The 1 thing that in all that time
that "didn't" buildup was RRs..... and I have constantly used my
MA especially during FAs where it was all 5 slots 4x/day. I'd buy
all sorts of stuff I didnt want nor would ever need/use. I time
boost Every MA craft, too.

We're talking 1k++ CCs, almost a Mill in SFs, over 12k KP,
over 6k in V V, but SoggyShorts taught me well. I collect
"best of" bldgs, and I need RRs to keep them current CH.
Heck even BPs built up more than RRs, and I've never been
in a competative FS in Khel. It took us awhile to get to
10 chests, then we were happy with that.

I'm trying to engage you because you seem to be open
minded enough to look @ more than 1 side of anything.

1st off, I highly agree, buh-bye to the casual playstyle. I
also agree since MS was solved another way, no reason
to limit it to 1 each anymore. Certainly CCs aren't the big
bottleneck, but only after winning those other bldgs that
give CCs, and IF they give us more for those without.

I do not agree tho that frag'n bldgs like DAs, Genies, GSs,
or other like bldgs, is a viable source. Its not untill a player
gets past say 2 years, that they have the ability not to use
all the stuff they are winning. Should all those players just
wait 2 years to build AWs ??

As a coder, and gameplayer, certain things stick out like
sore thumbs. When Elvenar came out, certain things were
there for specific reasons, just so the game all worked. Over
time, rather than using new variables, shortcuts were taken
and some aspects were co-opted in ways they never were
designed for. I was not here to start with, but its plain to me
how the game got designed.

Old Inno certainly didn't do us many favors, but they didn't
totally break thier own code to make a change and they did
give us a few brightspots over a feew years. New Inno doesn't
give a rat's butt about perverting certain things, in my opinion
for purely selfish ($$) reasons.

Buy KP - Thats in the game for players to pay for/skip research,
up to the point its cost prohibitive. Its a way for newbs to more
easily get to that CH3 ( playable point, now CH5 ). What its NOT,
is a good choice for a event task. That only artificially takes that
feature away from players because it quickly hits that wall where
its cost prohibitive for most players.

Likewise RRs/BPs/Relics all had the same function really. All 3
had different bldg groups that they applied to tho. Event bldgs
used RRs, Magic bldgs used BPs, and AWs used relics. Thier
function was in upgrading these bldgs. Your MA and Spire have
a symbiotical relationship all thier own, but RRs/BPs/Relics are
all tied into the tournaments.

My point here Henroo is, I'm against using something designed
for 1 thing, and then using it in ways it wasn't designed for. Maybe
back in the days of very small memory in computers, but not
nowadays, re-using variables for so many multiple tasks. Its
obvious to most/all of the Forum that because BPs are "buyable"
for $$$, its a simple ploy for revenue.

You've also said the chgs made you more powerfull, and for
every person like you, there's @ least 1 person who got hosed
by the chgs. You'd be surprised that I endorse wholesale chgs,
but only if they are a win/win for everyone. Yet in effect they've
split the "haves" into the "more haves" and "hosed haves (not)".
This just adds to the imbalance between players, not the stated
goal by any means and creates the "never will haves", uggggg.

Lets see, the CH1-5 chgs really did crush newbs not help them.
The AW chgs crush 1/2 the high up players and hose basically
all players especially the casual players. ( which there are tons of )
I have yet to suffer thru the CH6-10 chgs, but all my plans for
a max'd BTG have gone right out the window, and thats the only
AW that interested me. TheCauldron itself all but eliminated a
whole playstyle, and if it didn't then tie'n so many things to SS
finished the job.

No game I've ever played online (f2p) succeeded by trashing
thier playerbase. Inno doesn't have a game without all of us.
There has to be a basic respect both from Inno to us, but also
from us to Inno, for there to be a thriving revenue stream.

You and Dominion of God both have said the chgs themselves
can be mitigated, you two dissagree on costs. Neither of you
are in the " start city again from scratch " boat, where the chgs
made such a dramatic difference that.... that is the only "fix".
There are alot of ppl in "that boat", many are making the easy
choice..... quit and try another game.

Its easy to say..... well yeah, now you have to make decisions
on upgrading more than before........ when you're mostly done
with such upgrades, And your playstyle wasn't the 1 that got
torn to shreds with the chgs. Its hard tho to say that, when
you're in the thick of it and either you pull out a CreditCard
or suffer an exponentially slower game than already was.

This was a CityBuilder game, built for the casual player and
not just another fighting (PvP) game. Now its a Tourn/Spire
game with some citybuilding sprinkled in, and not for your
casual player.

While your optomistic view kinda supports Inno, can you
understand the pessimistic view, all those it hurts ? Where
do you come down on using metrics never designed for 1
thing, on things completly unrelated ? And would you really
be that cool on these chgs if your playstyle was the 1 that
got trashed, and your whole city became irrelivant to itself ??

 

[BrinDarby]

and yes @Henroo , I admire/respect your intellect here.

 

[Henroo]

You and Dominion of God both have said the chgs themselves
can be mitigated, you two dissagree on costs. Neither of you
are in the " start city again from scratch " boat, where the chgs
made such a dramatic difference that.... that is the only "fix".
There are alot of ppl in "that boat", many are making the easy
choice..... quit and try another game.

Its easy to say..... well yeah, now you have to make decisions
on upgrading more than before........ when you're mostly done
with such upgrades, And your playstyle wasn't the 1 that got
torn to shreds with the chgs. Its hard tho to say that, when
you're in the thick of it and either you pull out a CreditCard
or suffer an exponentially slower game than already was.

This was a CityBuilder game, built for the casual player and
not just another fighting (PvP) game. Now its a Tourn/Spire
game with some citybuilding sprinkled in, and not for your
casual player.

While your optomistic view kinda supports Inno, can you
understand the pessimistic view, all those it hurts ? Where
do you come down on using metrics never designed for 1
thing, on things completly unrelated ? And would you really
be that cool on these chgs if your playstyle was the 1 that
got trashed, and your whole city became irrelivant to itself ??

Actually, I *AM* in the start a new city from scratch boat. I started a brand new city Jan 19th. Consider it an experiment to how fast a highly experienced, motivated player can move through the game. And if it is possible for such a player to build and level AWs under the new system. I just made a thread regarding my new city and will be posting updates if you want to follow along.

And I totally agree with you regarding how the changes impact casual players. I've said the same thing in other posts. If you want to be a casual player in a non-competitive FS, then you might as well give up on ever having ancient wonders now. The only way to build and level them is going to be to join a top level FS. And you will have to compete in both tournament and spire.

 

[BrinDarby]

@Henroo ,

And ?
(edited) , I guess nvrmnd.

 

[Fayeanne]

They will be useful for event quests and for any season quests that say gain so many relics or so many of this type of relic!

Not really since the timing is difficult to predict. I used to be able to leave a bunch of provinces with 7/8 encounters finished so that I could clear a province on demand to get extra relics for those quests. But I turn over the Vision Vapor orb once every two weeks or so, and certainly not something I can do on demand.