Feedback Quick and Dirty Summary of Ancient Wonder Changes

[Dominionofgod]

All posts that were able to be merged here

so to sum up 17 different threads..... The upgrade costs are insainly stupid. They screwed over both long term and new players and actually hinder players progress in the game. Noone likes this. Several have left. yada yada yada, [MOD EDIT] Text Profanity removed And for the life of me, i dont see how they thought this could even be close to a good idea'

 

[quin629]

Apologies to the OP as this is not related to the wonderful, much appreciated summary of the changes to the AWs. But this is where we are now directed to lodge all complaints.

This is a pre-emptive strike complaint about the upcoming Tournament of Magic Event. I see at least 2 quests where collecting 20 - 24 Vision Vapor is a mandatory quest: no alternative option. Collecting various amounts of VV appears in several other quests during the Event, but always with another option, albeit one that may not be available to all players such as researching a tech.

The player base is already beyond angry at having to use CCs and spell frags, which most lower-chapter cities don't have many of, to level up AWs that Inno has always touted as a good way to advance in the game. To put quests like this in the next event will further erode player trust and will cause even more of those newer to mid-level players to quit. Inno is convincing them that there is no place here for them without spending actual cash money.

And don't even get me started on the changes Inno will have to make for the next FA as even the most FA-crazed FS will not be able to make Residue or AW badges in any numbers at all.

 

[Darielle]

I don't need to play the game to know ....

I think that's the general Inno sentiment.

 

[Astram]

I think that's the general Inno sentiment.

Taking that comment out of context is not proper

 

[Darielle]

Apologies to the OP as this is not related to the wonderful, much appreciated summary of the changes to the AWs. But this is where we are now directed to lodge all complaints.

This is a pre-emptive strike complaint about the upcoming Tournament of Magic Event. I see at least 2 quests where collecting 20 - 24 Vision Vapor is a mandatory quest: no alternative option. Collecting various amounts of VV appears in several other quests during the Event, but always with another option, albeit one that may not be available to all players such as researching a tech.

The player base is already beyond angry at having to use CCs and spell frags, which most lower-chapter cities don't have many of, to level up AWs that Inno has always touted as a good way to advance in the game. To put quests like this in the next event will further erode player trust and will cause even more of those newer to mid-level players to quit. Inno is convincing them that there is no place here for them without spending actual cash money.

And don't even get me started on the changes Inno will have to make for the next FA as even the most FA-crazed FS will not be able to make Residue or AW badges in any numbers at all.

Oh geez ... I honestly believe that Inno is going for a quick and temporary money boost to look good on a sales sheet. Then sell it quick before the new owner realizes that the good will of the players was totally trashed, and they've really bought a pig in a poke. Kind of like the oil companies scrambling to drill baby drill and sell it quickly, before the reality of climate change destroyes their operation. That's the only explanation I can think of for killing off your own game.

 

[Darielle]

Taking that comment out of context is not proper

It may not be proper, but if Inno management had any concept of how new players play, they could not have stated that this change would be better for new players. (and I hope you know that I don't blame you, Astram ... heaven knows you have a tough job right now and I give you credit for trying to do it.)

 

[BrinDarby]

ohh my my , I see ... but its ok to take us
outta context. I deff need a break from this
game if this is how it works.

 

[Lelanya]

Folks the staff have been working flat out for days. They answer your tickets, watch Discord and the Forums, and are answerable to the company.

Thank you, each and every one of you, for all the extra time you have put in to the community just in the last 3 days alone. Astram and Solaris in particular have been deep in the trenches.

 

[Astram]

ohh my my , I see ... but its ok to take us
outta context. I deff need a break from this
game if this is how it works.

Taking something out of context to infer something else is what makes it improper.

 

[MichaelMichael]

All posts that were able to be merged here were others were removed and threads locked

I am confused how this applies to the thread I was writing on. Why wasn't it merged here? Why would anything that did not violate the rules be removed? I am confused by your statement above. If the subject is determined to be the same, the posting should be transferred here (Merged with all history) rather merely locked. If it is a different topic, it should not be locked.

Could you clarify your meaning? If there are technical limitations, I get that. What was done here isn't a merge. It is a ending one conversation with a polite request to continue it where it belongs. If it can't be merged, I would think the conversation was a different subject or at least it went in a different direction making a merge confusing at best and unreadable at worst.

• Is there actually anything that was merged with full history?
• Was there anything not profane or offensive outside the rules that was removed?

 

[Astram]

I am confused how this applies to the thread I was writing on. Why wasn't it merged here? Why would anything that did not violate the rules be removed? I am confused by your statement above. If the subject is determined to be the same, the posting should be transferred here (Merged with all history) rather merely locked. If it is a different topic, it should not be locked.

Could you clarify your meaning? If there are technical limitations, I get that. What was done here isn't a merge. It is a ending one conversation with a polite request to continue it where it belongs. If it can't be merged, I would think the conversation was a different subject or at least it went in a different direction making a merge confusing at best and unreadable at worst.

• Is there actually anything that was merged with full history?
• Was there anything not profane or offensive outside the rules that was removed?

Removed posts were in violation of the Rules and/or ToS. As for the "other" thread, I can only find 1 prior post that was related and that was locked by the CM, so pending the ok from the CM I will merge it here. Respective posts merged here, if I have missed anything just let me know

 

[MichaelMichael]

But what Inno has really done is create a huge power gap between the existing large cities with highly leveled ancient wonders and any new city. Anybody starting the game today is going to basically be a permanent disadvantage in tournament performance and resource production when compared to an existing high level city with lots of developed AWs. To some degree, this power gap has always existed. But it used to be possible to close it after a few years of effort. I'm not sure that is possible anymore. The cost of leveling every single important AW from scratch is just going to be too high.

I could not agree more - I also would add that I may not want to play at all when there is such a large chasm. It doesn't seem fair. Also I am not going to start over. If I need to start over, I am leaving the game. I enjoy mentoring new players and guiding and helping them through the rough patches so some day they can take my place mentoring a later generation. This "upgrade" likely ends that possibility.

Inno's stated goal of "making AWs fairer" isn't fairer at all from my perspective. It leaves me with an unfair advantage and the players I mentor with an unfair disadvantage. When I help them, I am not giving them a helping hand. I am providing a crutch because of the severe handicap Inno has handed to them and largess granted me for playing as long as I did under the old rules for AW upgrades.

Overall, the gross unfairness is a good reason to quite Elvenar, despite how much I have enjoyed it. I do hope Inno retreats from this unfair idea on AWs but I suspect they won't and many will quit. It is sad when a service so radically changes that they lose so many customers, but I pretty much expect that to be the case with Elvenar as I really don't think they listen much to their customers.

Overall, I got buffed and I don't like it. One has to imagine that those that got Nerfed aren't happy either. So who were the customers that these changes served better? If Inno can answer that, I'd like to hear it. Frankly, this reminds me of the introduction of New Coke. Hopefully Innos marketing people read that Harvard Business School case study and they are prepared with a Classic Coke solution.

 

[MichaelMichael]

Removed posts were in violation of the Rules and/or ToS. As for the "other" thread, I can only find 1 prior post that was related and that was locked by the CM, so pending the ok from the CM I will merge it here. Respective posts merged here, if I have missed anything just let me know

I thank you for your considered response. I also want to thank you and your team of moderators. At times like these yours is a thankless job.

On this side, the customers are up in arms. Rarely do existing customers, who are generally happy with the way thing are, react well to radical changes. On the other side you answer to management who are your superiors. That management has a ruling coalition that thought these changes were a great idea and are vested in the changes made. When they ask you what going on (if they do), the only answers are "you can read the summary report" and add - "if you read the report, they ain't happy and volume is up xx%" and the leader likely responds "we pretty much expected that". So ends the discussion with management. Then you go back into the slog of moderating the complaints (some fair and other less so) as well as the occasional rude or irate customers - some of which may be flat out crazies that you get to deal with.

I also want to apologize for suggesting that you were censoring me and a conversation the management might not like. As you will be migrating it here, that is not censoring, that is doing your job consolidating issues into appropriate forums. I want to take the time to thank you for doing your job well. You are doing everything you can to moderate and keep the lid on things.

 

[MichaelMichael]

Frankly, this reminds me of the introduction of New Coke. Hopefully Innos marketing people read that Harvard Business School case study and they are prepared with a Classic Coke solution.

I used New Coke a suggested comparison to what is happening in Elvenar. I am wrong on that. With New Coke, the old customers came back and the management response was relatively quick 79 days. The only way Inno management would react that quickly is if their wallet was hurt. I don't think the customer will stop using diamonds. The only way things change is if the customers stop buying diamonds and choose to not view the new ads.

One question is whether Elvenar was a profitable venture before the changes. Coke was always a money winner. We don't know about Elvenar, Forge of Empires is their chief money maker. Inno show record revenue growth topping 15% last year and EBIDA margin of 29%. Bottom line, I don't think they are hurting. If customers want to change the direction of management, the only thing they will actually pay attention to is revenue - meaning ad revenue and diamond purchases. Basically, if you don't like the changes, don't view any ads and don't buy any diamonds.
Only a change in consumer behavior impacting revenue/profitablity matters.

If I were running the company, and I have lead a technology startup, I know there are only two things drive change: "How can we make more money and beat expectations?" and "What happened, Why we are missing targets?". These changes were an answer to the first question. A change back would be in response to the second question, but first they have to miss and miss badly the targeted growth they were expecting from this change. If ads more than cover the loss in diamonds - their overall idea and change was a success. If management reverts back to the old playing model, that admits that some of their idea was bad or a mistake. I suspect that risk taking is encouraged in tech company so that is probably okay so long as the leader has the right sponsors, but it is better to have good ideas.

Bottom line - if you don't like this change, stop viewing ads and and don't buy any diamonds.

There is enough posted that Management will know why.

 

[Sir Squirrel]

I have a fellowship full of unhappy players. One of our longest playing members is seriously thinking of quitting the game that he loves because of the AW changes. I am just trying to hold on to the few active members I have left. Recruiting has become almost impossible as the number of Fellowships looking for members is crazy and there are not as many new players that keep playing the game for very long anymore. I am tired of all the changes as most are sucking the fun right out of the game and making running a fellowship a sad and frustrating experience for me.

 

[muffy.]

I have a fellowship full of unhappy players. One of our longest playing members is seriously thinking of quitting the game that he loves because of the AW changes. I am just trying to hold on to the few active members I have left. Recruiting has become almost impossible as the number of Fellowships looking for members is crazy and there are not as many new players that keep playing the game for very long anymore. I am tired of all the changes as most are sucking the fun right out of the game and making running a fellowship a sad and frustrating experience for me.

(((((Sir squirrel))))) good to see you. I’ve lost 3 players in 2 days. They quit.

 

[crackie]

I have over 700k+ spell frags in my main city, mostly because I was forward thinking enough to value all my moonstone sets. Oh, lucky me! I can weather this storm of defecated matter. But as ridiculous as 700k+ Spell Frags sounds, that’s only good for what, maybe 20 wonder level upgrades because my wonders are high, as I have been playing for many years. It wants 30k+ Spell Frags per upgrade. So for easy math, if I have 10 wonders, that’s maybe 2 upgrades apiece and *poof* it’s all gone.

So what took like 5yrs to accumulate is good for 2 more upgrades apiece on my wonders. And new players are supposed to do this, how exactly, especially with 1 Moonstone set limit now? These changes are perfectly reasonable…for people that don’t actually play the game. So I guess if you are a new player, you will struggle to get wonders built now and in 5 years time, you will…oh probably have about the same amount of wonders bc this probably game won’t exist anymore at the going rate of changes.

 

[Dominionofgod]

Im still not sure what im going to do because of the aw upgrade cost change...
My cities have 9 aw currently placed. Soon, 8 of them will be either full of kp or shards and ready for upgrade. Leaving only 1 left for kp to be put in. So its only a short time until they are all full. That will be a problem. What do I do with my kp? What do i do with my aw instants? What do i do on event quests for donate/use kp to your own aw? How should I proceed? or rather.. Should I bother proceeding if a whole section of the game has basically been locked out of? Whats the point?
The upgrade change/costs are absurd and idiotic. To just upgrade what i have ready, 8 aws one single time, would take from 75-100% of my multi year stockpile of catalysts and spell fragments... So moving forward, knowing 8 single aw upgrades would take many years to get resources to accomplish... is beyond crazy. If i zero out my resources trying to do it, then im screwed out of everything else that takes them. Cauldron (partially), crafting, everything that takes either catalysts or frag.
And even if i did the upgrades anyway, its only a short extension on the issue. Once the aw's are full again, i would be unable to upgrade at all. So id be locked out of my aw's progression. Zero catalyst/frag would hinder the cauldron. It would lock me out of crafting completely. No crafting means no more pet foods, military buildings, for me. Soon as that supply is depleted, no more evolving buildings. No more military, or very limited military that cant do much. Which means no more tourney or spire. No spire means no more of its extremely limited frags and catalysts. Now im in a circular path of not having and any and cant get any resources... At this point, no resources, no aw, no military, no tourney, no spire, no petfood/evolving building.... (And they wonder why do many players are quitting over this.. gee, i wonder), Its clear that zeroing out because of these upgrades cost is not a good option. Its an option to kill your city.
So what other choice do you have? Cant upgrade aw's.. just skip em? No more aw's? Or one aw level every so many months or years? Now were back to the top of this post. Hitting that brick wall again. What to do with kp/kp instants? What to do on those 'donate kp to you aw' quests. That would instantly go form the easiest quest to the most impossible. And we know how inno seems to keep making no alternative 'or' on those quests. So what happens when you reach 'donate to your own aw' and you have no aw left and no alternative quest? Now your lock out of the event!

How far does this have to go before they realize what a horrible idea these changes to the costs are? I can deal with the changes to the aw's themselves. It might annoy some of us, but we can adjust. But the change to its upgrade costs can lock ppl out of many aspects of the game in time. Screw entire cities over. Make years of work completely useless. Thats the biggest middle finger to a player base iv seen in the last ~7 or so years here. Even just shutting the game down would have been less of a middle finger. This is just a slow death of the cities. The kind that will only anger ppl to the point where not only will so many end up leaving, but instill an anger that will make sure they never bother with an inno product again.

If inno wanted to slow down aw production/upgrades so desperately.. then they could have just expanded the cost to upgrade to use chapter goods (jsut like most other buildings already). (Or something else entirely, idc.). Might not be a 'perfect' solution.. but its infinitely better then this crap they went with....
Oh well, guess ill get a jump on things and go casket shopping now. Tho i imagine a casket big enough to fit a city would be rather costly.. Then again, if im going to have to zero out my resources anyway... mine as well use it for something worth while.'

 

[MichaelMichael]

I am tired of all the changes as most are sucking the fun right out of the game and making running a fellowship a sad and frustrating experience for me.

Yep, but Inno will only change their tune if the changes do not meet revenue expectations.

Do not look at the new ads and do not purchase Diamonds if you want things to change back.

 

[muffy.]

At the end of the Spire, it didn’t say “to city” the guy just stood there. Has that been changed now too?