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    Your Elvenar Team

Quicker Expiration for 0 Star Trades

able99

Member
The unfair trade problem is real, and I've seen several proposals solutions, i.e. hide them, limit them to FS only, and even a poo on it.
My solution is to simply have 0 star trades expire in 24 hour or less instead of the normal week. This way the ligament use to help players with 0 star trades stays intact. The players who post the 3 star trades will need to spend spend time daily re-posting their trades and hopefully they grow tired of it. Having 0 star trades expire in in 24 hours, or maybe same time as daily decay is probably easier for developers to code.
 

ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
It's the "unfair" part with which I disagree. The use of the star system to determine if a trade is fair or not is flawed. In a trade both sides should be getting out of the trade what they want at a price they think works for them. The value of the goods and services they offer should be, in their estimation, equal to the goods and services they receive. And in a non-coercive environment, only the participants in the trade can determine that, because added to the actual production value of the goods, are the "intangibles." Those are the felt needs of the player at the time they are making the trade, and the demand/supply of the goods themselves. The star system only accounts for the cost of production and assumes that if the goods cost the same to produce they must be worth the same as those on their tier. This, as noted, does not take into account the other factors, which often determine the value of the goods in the eyes of the seller/buyer.

Now since "unfair" is an moral judgement, the star system encourages players to view others as "fair" or "unfair" traders, a moral judgement of their character. For this reason I advocate for "Open Trade" where all trades are accepted without judgement. Nobody has to take zero star trades, and they are, in some ways, a pain to deal with when they are listed. But since they are listed at the end of the trade list, it seems to me to be a small thing to just stop scrolling down once you reach them.

So, no. No restrictions on trade. Limiting the duration of a posted trade bases upon an inaccurate assessment of it's value would be, itself, "unfair" to the one posting as he/she would have to post it again if it wasn't taken in the normal amount of time allowed for other trades. And the incompleteness of the star system may, itself, cause players to pay more for goods than necessary. That, too, is probably "unfair."

So, ignore the star system as it implies trades are "fair" but measures it all based upon and inaccurate and incomplete measure. Don't penalize players who measure the value of their and your goods differently than the flawed star system, and let things be open and free.

AJ
 

shimmerfly

Well-Known Member
Now since "unfair" is an moral judgement, the star system encourages players to view others as "fair" or "unfair" traders, a moral judgement of their character. For this reason I advocate for "Open Trade" where all trades are accepted without judgement. Nobody has to take zero star trades, and they are, in some ways, a pain to deal with when they are listed. But since they are listed at the end of the trade list, it seems to me to be a small thing to just stop scrolling down once you reach them.
Your "morality" must be a bit different than mine. I may see wrong and right in a more black and white way.
As far as scrolling down... how about 45-50 pages of parasitic trades. Wrong ....with 2 FS battling it out at everyone elses expense.
I'm not arguing with you just making a point.

Edited for: @able99 Not completely sold on how this would help.
 
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BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
It's the "unfair" part with which I disagree.
I wholeheartedly agree ........... :eek: , its either "expensive" or "cheap".
This mentality, a trade is morally wrong because its expensive, is itself
a detrement to the game as a whole.

2nd off ...... Its a Trade System , not a :rolleyes: Swap System !!!!!
2-star deals are basically the FS discount, and 3-star deals are
for when you need something A.S.A.P....

3rd ... If you don't wanna see 0-1 star deals, its simple......
-- Don't scroll down that far -- :p

Its Bassackwards to limit them to FS only, they are there pretty
much for locals only... Seems to me , Elvenar doesn't understand
or doesn't want to use .... a game feature, that IS an in-game economy.

Why is there no Filter for "FS offers" , "local offers" ... OR ... :eek:
a simple way to select any or all "star" trades ?????? if you could
just select to see just 2-3 star trades, or just maybee 1 star trades,
this absurd, non exsistent problem with 0-1 star trades would
mostly go away overnight !!!

My poker site allows me to select which tables I see in the lobby,
so why can't we select which trades we wanna see ???

The Trade System is exactly that... a Trade system, not a Swap System !!!
 

samidodamage

Well-Known Member
Like shimmerfly, I'm not yet sold that this solution will have the desired effect either.
3rd ... If you don't wanna see 0-1 star deals, its simple......
-- Don't scroll down that far -- :p
If only it worked like that past Ch10...
My lvl 5 trader (total of 31 pages right now on K world; didn't want to deal with the 65 pages on E world :p ):
p19 it goes from 2* at the top of the list to 1*
p20 moves from 1* to 0*
p23 moves from 0* to 3*
moves from 3* to 2* at some point (didn't document the page#, sorry)
p30 moves from 2* to 0*
p31 all 0*

I could get behind this idea though:
a simple way to select any or all "star" trades ?????? if you could
just select to see just 2-3 star trades, or just maybee 1 star trades,
I think it has been suggested before but don't have time to search for it right now.
 

juniperknome

Well-Known Member
i would think the best solution is to reduce the wholesale trade to 10% or 20%. uneven trades are just a thing to deal with but way too many people are abusing the trade with 0 star trades
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
My lvl 5 trader (total of 31 pages right now on K world; didn't want to deal with the 65 pages on E world :p ):
p19 it goes from 2* at the top of the list to 1*
p20 moves from 1* to 0*
p23 moves from 0* to 3*
moves from 3* to 2* at some point (didn't document the page#, sorry)
p30 moves from 2* to 0*
p31 all 0*
But not having enough goods to cover a trade is what puts it below the 0-star trades you can cover, so they really don't count.

Oh, and how many of those pages are from people you have not discovered yet and at rated at 0 or 1-star because of the trade penalty? This is one of the things a lot of people don't usually include in the comments.
 

defiantoneks

Active Member
i just had a related thought… sorta.
what if the decay rate for trade materials was higher if rated as a zero or 1 star?
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
i just had a related thought… sorta.
what if the decay rate for trade materials was higher if rated as a zero or 1 star?
The people who put up these kind of trades are normally online every day, and probably in the game multiple times or for hours at a time, so pulling the trades down before decay, and then putting them right back up, would not bother them at all.
 

samidodamage

Well-Known Member
But not having enough goods to cover a trade is what puts it below the 0-star trades you can cover, so they really don't count.
:oops: Didn't think about that...you're right.
Oh, and how many of those pages are from people you have not discovered yet and at rated at 0 or 1-star because of the trade penalty?
With 440 provinces completed, it's been a long time since I saw a trade from non-discovered neighbors for regular goods. Most of those pages are sentient goods. Obviously the trader has changed from when I originally posted, but just checked and of 34 pages only 10 are regular goods, zero from non-discovered, zero I don't have the goods to cover. The parasites who don't even build sentient factories, then scoop up the 'in-demand' sentient goods at 3* and repost for 1* and 0* are the biggest problem imo. I'm just not sure that the suggestions here would fix that.
 

ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
Your "morality" must be a bit different than mine. I may see wrong and right in a more black and white way.
As far as scrolling down... how about 45-50 pages of parasitic trades. Wrong ....with 2 FS battling it out at everyone elses expense.
I'm not arguing with you just making a point.

Edited for: @able99 Not completely sold on how this would help.
I'm a bit confused over the point here. (Probably just haven't had enough coffee yet) Are you saying you have to scroll through 45-50 pages of 3 star trade offers or 0 star trade offers? Of course, since the 0-star trade offers are at the bottom, you can't mean that. That leaves, I imagine, 45-50 pages of sentient goods trades at the 3-star level. Since I've never experienced this, I'm imagining the "target" sentient good listed at some relatively high price, line after line of it. Since the maximum you can list is 7 pages (I think it's 60 trades) the number of players doing this has to be at least 6-7 since 45 x 8 is 360, or 6x60. That's the minimum. Does anyone on the server know who the "parasites" are? If so why not send a message to the other fellowships and simply boycott those players? I can't imagine the list would be more than 10-15 people and their fellowships (they may all be in the same fellowships, and thus you may just need to boycott those fs's as well). You may think you can't stop them, but you can with organization and leadership. Just a thought.

i would think the best solution is to reduce the wholesale trade to 10% or 20%. uneven trades are just a thing to deal with but way too many people are abusing the trade with 0 star trades
The wholesale price is the limit of the goods sold so this would work if the price was lowered to something like 10% over the current market value of the goods. However, that would have some serious repercussions as it would be a move that the devs would have to make and that would be signalling to the "parasites" that they aren't welcome (or at least their behavior isn't). And it would be the end of many 3-star trades. It's an interesting idea but I'd have to give it a lot of thought as to what would be the long term effect on the game.

AJ
 

able99

Member
Enenhar, I suggested 1 day shelf life for the 0 star trades or they could disappear at same time as decay because I thought that would discourage the players trying to take advantage of the system. You may be right they would simply re-post their trades daily, so I would amend my suggestion and propose 0 star trades expire every 10 minutes.
 

ed1960

Well-Known Member
1star.jpg

0star.jpg

0star1.jpg

You are correct in that the numbers are not that bad in volume, however in looking at sentient trades 10-30 pages that mostly just sit
there were eight pages at the end 0 and 1 star that I could not accept.

But if making them expire faster just sent one of the individuals to the DR for RMI I would be happy
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
Does anyone on the server know who the "parasites" are?
I am proudly a Trader on Khelonar .....
While playing many mmophs over the years, usually there is an ingame
economy for goods. Some games this is locally, some its globally... Just
as with any economy, undercutting to make sales happens ...

While on Elvenar it doesn't take 2steel & 1planks to make a marble... thus
values of goods are set here by Inno... T3-1 : T2-1.5 : T1-2.25 ... This is just
to compare apples to apples in values.

Next, inversely ... newer players are hurt by the trader's fee, while older
players seem to take adv of this fact..... by having less fees applied AND
AWs that reduce these fees.... Its easily a fact where a 3yr player has 0 fee
to take a 6mo player's offer, yet the 6mo old player pays a +50% fee
taking the 3yr player's offer .... The new player either loses 50%, or loses
that person as a trading partner to take thier offers. The fix to this is
offering a 1 star deal ( 1:1.5 ) so both pay the same.

As this is an ingame economy for goods .... there is NO moral obligation
to spend the time to trade and keep goods offered 24/7, and not expect
some profit for your effort. As with ANY economy, the market will stabilize
at acceptable levels for both trader and buyer.

Next , Everyone shud be making thier boost good, and trading for thier
non-boost goods. As your boost increasess, the easier it is to absorb small
losses in trading.... Thats why most of your trades are within your Fellowship,
so they are cheaper, and your losses are less.....

Lets look @ loss's shall we..... lets say , no boost , you make 100 T1 from a bldg.
You make 1 of each. Lets also say your boost is 300% .... Thus you make :
100 (nb) - 100 (nb) - 400 (b) ......... ( remember max boost is 700% + Aws or
other bldgs that might increase that 700% )

If you just make your boost you make : 3x 400 (b) or 1200 (b) ( with same 3 bldgs )
Now, if you just trade in your FS @ 1:1 , you then have 100(nb) - 100(nb) - 1000(b)
Trading @ 1star rates, you then have 100(nb) - 100(nb) - 900(b)

The rub here is you needs those goods asap, and noone in your FS is on for another
3-4 hrs, but you have a local that always has offers and you can grab them instantly,
but they trade 1star ... in effect your 1200 goods became 1100 ...
You have basically not lost 50%, you only lost about 8%, and you got the value of
being able to get need'd goods on-demand .... not waiting for someone to take ur offer.
(remember , you are getting 1100 in goods , not 600 in goods by just making your
boost, and trading for your non boost ...... thats 85% more !!!!! )

Yes if you 100% balance out production.... 1200 becomes 400,400,400 inside FS trades,
or 300,300,300 if you trade @ 1star rates ....... 900 is still 50% more than if you made
all 3 goods yourself, and this is just @ 300% boost......

Since the trader fee is 50% , then morally... a 1 star trade isn't morally wrong, and
really isn't "that" expensive..... The game, Elvenar, says max trade is 1:8, so anything
beyond that.... is morally wrong, anything less is acceptable, by decree of the devs
for coding it that way....

Enuff with the "Unfair" crapola.... there is only expensive -> cheap .... Its a
Trade system, 2 ppl must agree on a price, there is NO "unfair" , and if you think
there is, just don't take the offers, but don't lobby the devs to eliminate a game
feature that works just fine , as an ingame economy if just allowed to be such !!!
 

Lelanya

Well-Known Member
Huh
How about that, a new rationalization for squeezing other players from their goods.

The extra that any player would be making has:
- Cost them in cleared boosted provinces.
- Is expected, anticipated, and in fact balanced by the game developers to give more to players so that they can afford to play through the choke points.
- Further, is meant to encourage players to produce their boosted goods and only their boosted goods, in order to save space. Space is the true premium in this game.
- The trader fees imposed on non discovered cities is meant to encourage players to join a fellowship early on.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
View attachment 10205
View attachment 10206
View attachment 10207
You are correct in that the numbers are not that bad in volume, however in looking at sentient trades 10-30 pages that mostly just sit
there were eight pages at the end 0 and 1 star that I could not accept.

But if making them expire faster just sent one of the individuals to the DR for RMI I would be happy
My point would be that it's:
  • Pointless, those people just repost those trades again. 5 days become 2-3 days? it most likely would not even be that long on the market.
  • Not every 0-1 star trade is a 0-1 star trade, how do you reference to other players the difference, they see it as a 0-1 star trade, while the poster added a 2-3 star trade.
 

LutherTheHairy

Active Member
How about that, a new rationalization for squeezing other players from their goods.

...get the parasitic trades off the trader quicker...
How is anyone getting squeezed? Players can stop scrolling down at two stars if they want. Expensive trades do not even interfere with browsing the offers. If someone who does not want them, they just sit there at the bottom of the list, unexamined.

If there is a resource someone needs and there are only expensive trades for it available, I can see how that could be perceived as being 'squeezed' but it is still better for them than the trade not being available at all! If a 0 star trade is a squeeze, then isn't someone who holds goods and posts no trades at all even worse?

Same applies to the parasitic approbation. How is it parasitic when it is the user's choice whether to fill the trade, let it go, or propose a trade more to their liking?
 
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