Release Notes version 1.10

[DeletedUser43]

So, one possibility is to demolish manufactories I already own & replace them with armories to increase my Squad sizes

Don't! You misunderstand what an armory does for you. All it does is increase the amount of troops in the queue to get trained, it doesn't do a thing to increase them on the battlefield. That only happens in the tech tree under squad size upgrades.

If you only had one armory but were here all the time to constantly hit the train button, you'd get exactly the same number of troops trained at any time than if your city were nothing but armories. The only thing more armories get you is the ability to set the training and forget it for longer periods of time.

And barracks upgrades are the only thing that shorten the amount of troop training time.

 

[DeletedUser]

Don't! You misunderstand what an armory does for you. All it does is increase the amount of troops in the queue to get trained, it doesn't do a thing to increase them on the battlefield. That only happens in the tech tree under squad size upgrades.

Oh! I did misunderstand that - thanks for clarifying.

Sooo.... everywhere I look it seems to be the answer is "Yep, you're stuck!"

 

[DeletedUser594]

True, if you negotiate provinces with the earned goods you produce, you can then use your completed province KPs to fill your Tech Tree quicker. But if you fight to win that province instead, you can also use your earned troops & then use your completed province KP to fill the Tech Tree quicker as well.....
my point is that everything takes time, no matter whether you gravitate more towards production or more towards fighting. If everything takes time & effort from a player to do, where does the "imbalance" come in?
Whenever I sign in, I don't only choose to make more goods or train more troops. I do BOTH. Is the "imbalance" of the game that some people are saying coming from the idea that some players are only doing one or the other?...
.....I also think this goes back to my question of why should we all be forced to play the exact same game?
....then how have I somehow earned "too many" provinces?

>> You have earned your provinces and I don't begrudge that, my point was again about the game being imbalanced and not players strategies. Everyone plays for and enjoys different aspects of game play and I have no favor or dislike of people building cities that veer this way or that, my point was that a fighting strategy can't compete with a production startegy bcs the brakes are applied in multiple places to keep a fighter from keeping pace with a negotiator

The two paths have some similiarites as you mentioned- both require upgrades, buildings, costs etc. but the differences run deeper than that
Let me use a fictional bizzaro city to illustrate why. In bizarrelven you can make as many manufactories as you can afford or want but- all the goods have to be run through a cleaning and polishing process which is done in the Polisher building, and there's only one allowed per city

After polish you're off to negotiate but soon find that the basket used to carry goods isn't big enough ..,negotiations get close but at some point you are out negotiated until you can get an updateed size bigger basket. Then there are areas where despite waiting for the polisher and having a full basket you still can't get past the negotiating team because they have a guy that shoots down every thing you throw at him and you got nothing till two chapters later when you unlock a wicked negotiator to join your team.

That's what fighting is like here. A negotiator can build goods and get them all in the same building without long waits. You have upgrade categories where fighters need 5 different units each with upgrades in class, armory upgrades, barracks, troop size.

What is the line in the sand for the amount of manufactories we "should" have? Does this number change if you are in an area with mostly gold mines or inactive players? Does this number change if your FS is made up of newer players? More advanced players? If you are the only one with that boost, does the number change
I feel like my goods production and my troop production are both adequate for my current needs. Am I wrong? Why or why not?

If you feel you have enough, then you have enough.

 

[Maz Mellor]

The two paths have some similiarites as you mentioned- both require upgrades, buildings, costs etc. but the differences run deeper than that
Let me use a fictional bizzaro city to illustrate why. In bizarrelven you can make as many manufactories as you can afford or want but- all the goods have to be run through a cleaning and polishing process which is done in the Polisher building, and there's only one allowed per city

After polish you're off to negotiate but soon find that the basket used to carry goods isn't big enough ..,negotiations get close but at some point you are out negotiated until you can get an updateed size bigger basket. Then there are areas where despite waiting for the polisher and having a full basket you still can't get past the negotiating team because they have a guy that shoots down every thing you throw at him and you got nothing till two chapters later when you unlock a wicked negotiator to join your team.

That's what fighting is like here. A negotiator can build goods and get them all in the same building without long waits. You have upgrade categories where fighters need 5 different units each with upgrades in class, armory upgrades, barracks, troop size.

I love your analogies, Varron. Even if this is the first one I've seen, I'm ready to say I love them all.

"Bizarrelven." I hope somebody names their city that now.

 

[DeletedUser627]

Kudos to TravelstoVegas and Varron. Really, I think this is the best example I've seen where Forum discussion lead to clarity on multiple issues. And without rancor, or one player needing to be proved "right" at the expense of another.

 

[DeletedUser]

Varron, thank you for your kind response & explanation. I like your tale of Bizzarelven, ha ha! If I understand you correctly, you are saying that Troops (for a variety of reasons) take longer to train/get stronger/replenish than it takes to earn goods, so that is why fighting is harder/more "imbalanced" than negotiating.

If I am correct in understanding what you are saying, then I do have one further question, for you or for anyone - if it is true that the Devs want a "balance" between fighting & negotiating and not necessarily one style over the other, then the goal would be to get all of us players in the middle where we would be able to negotiate some provinces and be able to fight other ones, right? Not only do one or the other.

Yet - in this new upgrade, many players no longer have the option to negotiate. We cannot produce it ourselves & we cannot trade for it, and we cannot buy it in the Wholesaler. The only option to progress is to fight, and it will be like that for a very long amount of time. That is not balanced.

As an aside, if I am a player who prefers to fight, it may take me longer to train/make my troops stronger/replenish them, but at least I have the option to BUY goods using my coins or supplies (or my own boosted goods) via the Wholesaler. No one has the option of buying more troops in this way, so that's kind of an imbalance too, but that's kind of beside the point, I guess.

At this point, I cannot even TRY to negotiate - it's a foregone conclusion that it cannot be done by me, and a lot of others along with me.
Many of the players who have felt that the game was unbalanced before now, and were frustrated by it, perhaps can identify with the frustration that we stuck players are now experiencing - through no fault of our own.

At least you still had the OPTION of negotiating even if you had to work a bit to do so, or even if it wasn't your preferred choice. You could still find a way to progress, no matter which strategy or path you chose to play by. You may have felt like you weren't getting AS MANY points or AS FAR as a player who had a lot of goods to negotiate with, but you were making progress & you did have options in how you wanted to play the game.

But that is not the case now for many of us, and that is what we are trying to point out.

It's like when I was a kid & I used to play Monopoly with my cousin. He was brilliant at it & I didn't mind always losing to him because he played the game better than I did. What I minded was that it wasn't enough for him to win - he had to make the rest of us miserable while he did so. A game is supposed to be at least a little enjoyable, and certainly we each want to feel like the more we play, the better we get & the more progress we make. As you can imagine, Monopoly ceased to be a game that most of us would play with him anymore.

By the way, my cousin is a millionaire financial advisor now but he's still pretty mean. =(

 

[DeletedUser]

I tried to edit my post but could not, so I will say it here - I use the word "you" a lot in the above post, but my response is not targeted at anyone in particular, just in general. Sorry if that was not clear.

 

[DeletedUser43]

Both those points by varron and travels were well written. I think they may be moot however. We have zero information from the devs that they were trying to "balance" anything. Just because one player suggested that was the motive, doesn't make it so. Moreover, as travels has just said, closing the door to negotiations does not balance the game at all. It just blocks negotiating completely.

I think the answer is a lot more obvious. This is a company and they are trying to make money. I am guessing that sales of expansions are a big seller. (I see most players saying they have bought some expansions). They want to sell more expansions. So they made it impossible to get them for a very long time unless you buy them. They know you can't fight to clear them until you get stronger armies. Or if you can, you lose so many of your troops it doesn't matter anyway because it takes so long to make troops. They may not have wanted to just grey out those provinces on the world map, so they added the orc requirement which is effectively the same thing.

It may be that players who have larger cities weren't buying enough expansions so that is where they decided to put the roadblock. Though, as far as I am concerned the excruciatingly long scouting times seem like enough of a roadblock to me. But idk.

It could simply be that they are surprised by this because they didn't have a clue that a 10th ring limitation would hit so early.

I think it is also likely this has to do with the tournaments. They have "imbalanced" the game in a way because we all got 700% boosts so fast. Suddenly we were awash in goods and they panicked and felt they had to put the brakes on. They added orcs to the world map to slow down the negotiations there and they added enormous supply requirements to the tech tree.

Those are my theories any how.

 

[DeletedUser627]

It'll be interesting to see how they price these 33 available expansion purchases. Note how many they've decided to offer? 33, not the 21 currently available as premiums via Main Hall upgrades. 12 * 8 (expansions times provinces required) - yep, looks like they expect incoming players to complete 96 fewer provinces. That fits with the Orc limitation, doesn't it? And the surprisingly low Chest requirements they implemented previously? Bobbykitty, it appears that their solution to long scouting times is : don't scout. Buy expansions.

 

[DeletedUser594]

I really don't know what the devs think- I can only guess. My impression is that they opened shop while still barely stocked. They anticipated a more casual player and were surprised by the rabidity of many players. They blundered in the neighborhood design and had to tap dance through a minefield trying to correct for the deficeit but not overly so. The devs were learning a lot on the fly and didn't hit a groove until recently. I excpect the material will come quicker and more elements added and the game will flesh out some more The neighborhood issue was unanticipated and affected a core element of game play that radiates out into most other aspects of play, and the way the game is structured makes for a complicated fix.
They seem to play it on the conservative side when releasing AW's, maybe better to let line out than reel it back in once released? I didn't get how they talk about things as very powerful and impressive like the Bulwark unless they just play dainty. I think they have been surprised a few times by how quickly and thoroughly what they put out is dissected and digested but maybe now decided to just put chains on the catering trucks tires so those don't get gnawed off too.

And these orcs we are talking about are the tires by the way- I have quite a bit of territory open and have been playing since shortly after the two ladies above me started but well within the dustbowl days of pre- fellowships when mixed production was king, trading happened between..,well no one, clicking was an actual activity just a hair above literally sitting and staring at your city even though there was nothing to be done (you know you did)- and i fought pretty dang regularly until it became obvious I needed to cool off or lose relics when Aw's released. I still have some orc free territories and I've gnawed my share of tire.

So far they've been tightfisted with the diamonds, at least compared to FoE, but they also haven't even had a holiday or other type of event where diamonds tend to roll out so I am reserving judgement on that issue. I've been playing with inno now since 2012 and I've spent far more time playing this and forge than I did watching cable which has eaten a lot more money. Toward the end of my forge days I had a net positive flow of diamonds without ever opening my wallet and there was something like 2700 diamonds just sitting in my account when I left bcs they would give away both diamonds and diamond structures in events and I just couldn't bring myself to spend diamonds on things like troop revival. Overall I feel you can have a great experience with little spent $ but I am sure I would be miffed if I was trying to stay in the top 20 where pay to stay is looking likely but score is something thats important to me but not a primary or even secondary driver for me as these games give me a different itch to scratch- something akin to what a collie with ADD in a field of squirrels must feel like I imagine.

 

[DeletedUser61]

Just because one player suggested that was the motive, doesn't make it so.

But it's fairly easy to regard the game as a closed system, and identify the sources and sinks.
One of the InnoGames blogs, about game design, is quite relevant.

But most of our day is spent answering questions from all directions, staring at massive Excel spreadsheets, sitting in meetings, doing research work on the internet, preparing Power Point slides or shifting meshes around in Unity.
- https://blog.innogames.com/game-design-the-universe-and-everything

An unrestrained source will always throw the game out of balance. We have plenty of commentary that's left over from the Declineable Quests response.

we all got 700% boosts so fast. Suddenly we were awash in goods and they panicked and felt they had to put the brakes on.

Plumping up the boosts may well have been intentional, because if fewer manufacturing buildings are needed, and consequently fewer houses and workshops, then quite a bit more expansion space will be freed up for the Chapter VIII buildings and for more Ancient Wonders.

And I don't think we've seen the last of the Tournament reward adjustments. Once the map densities have improved, I fully expect to see some weekly Tournament rewards that are more interesting.

They anticipated a more casual player and were surprised by the rabidity of many players.

The folks who like City Builders have always been fanatics. It's not at all a typical gaming genre, and I applaud InnoGames for taking a crack at it.

The neighborhood issue was unanticipated

Then they haven't ever read the forums. "Map Problems" were obvious more than a year ago. Here's a quote from April 2015.

those of us who played beta are particularly fearful of the dead zones because it is a huge problem on beta.

I'd suggest that the developers implemented a simple map distribution algorithm, as a placeholder, and that Tournament Participation was always conceived of as the best metric for selecting the map areas that would be the best destinations for new immigrants.

The developers are looking at the whole elephant (or at least we hope they are) but you can't just magic a complex system into place, overnight.

 

[DeletedUser43]

but you can't just magic a complex system into place, overnight.

That's why it is so important to have the complex system in place BEFORE you release it.

In fact, trying to cobble one together is next to impossible. They are playing whack a mole and they don't have any idea what one move will lead to. Too bad they didn't ask all of us. We know the second they say a change is coming what it will lead to. They have a truly amazing brilliant resource at their fingertips and they just toss it away. Too bad.

If they actually posted game data, let us know their goals, they would have dozens of geniuses working on the "puzzle" to make the game the best it can be while accomplishing those goals. But no, they stay silent. They treat people terribly. Never an apology when something goes wrong.

It is such a shame. This game has the potential to be brilliant.


On a totally different subject:

OMG....are the devs really this confused? I just read this comment from the facebook page::

"Players will need Orcs from ring 10 onwards. Players can research the armory upgrade after the advanced scouts and portal, so it shouldn't take that much time to research it. Especially since players can get lots of knowledge points from tournaments."

They wrote that after a hundreds of comments. Players need to do ALL the research from the dwarf chapter and then ALL the research from the fairy chapter and then they can do what was suggested. Not that much time? They are clueless.

Is it a language thing? Are they just nodding their heads and having no clue what anyone on any of the threads is saying? Can someone please translate the issue into German for them?

 

[DeletedUser2396]

I just started Chapter 5 - I negotiated out to 12 rings - on my Northside - i am 9 rings out on the East - South - West - my Army is not strong enought or big enought to go North anymore - if and the word "IF" i continue to play and work thur the Research Tree it would be realistic to say that it would take me over a year to get to Orcs if not longer - I have been playing now almost 5-6 months and yes i have purchase diamonds a few times but if they think this trend will continue they will need to rethink that out - ONE would think that the Game Developers would want a paying customer to stay but with the way it is now - they are more than likely to be driving me to another game now as i won't be purchasing more diamonds with it like this now - a Choke Hold is still a Choke Hold and that is what they have done to the game now - Gasp Gasp

SK

 

[DeletedUser2855]

i can even win those 12 rings but takes a lot of army to win and you cant win if you dont have all army upgrades from dwarf i have golden golem so i can,,,

 

[DeletedUser627]

I upgraded 2 Armories to L20 today. Have no words to express how disgusted I am that all our perseverance is rewarded by an enormous dung hole.
Passive aggressive much, dear designers? We don't gush over your violent violet, your flambuoyant flowers, your squeamy spiders...so you punish us with an city of dung?

 

[DeletedUser61]

What could possibly have been prettier than the Fairy Flowers?

Now the Graphics Artists will have some maneuvering room for the next Guest Race, Pixies or Wood Elves, or whatever.

 

[DeletedUser2855]

lol Katwijk anything they put after orc will look pretty ahahahahahahahah

 

[DeletedUser627]

lol Katwijk anything they put after orc will look pretty ahahahahahahahah

Si. Nothing like lowering the bar when you can't meet expectations. The odd thing is that Inno is capable of producing really good graphics - but the best ones often get relegated to secondary use rather than primary. It's weird, because color theory has been understood for decades. Why would a company intentionally select colors that are proven to be visually repellent?

 

[DeletedUser1831]

I just went to one of my open provinences that I just finished scouting and it says I NEED orcs to negotiate any battles...well, I haven't even unlocked fairys yet, and in fact I am only about half way (or less) through Dwarves on my timeline. This is just not cool. I cannot win most battles this far out, and I have 4 armories as high as I can get them this point on my timeline. I understand that it helps bring more of a challenge for players that are sitting at the Orc chapter door, however, for players still in Dwarves...this will cause people to stop playing if they are frozen like this for two whole chapters. Sorry if this has already been cried about.

Yep. That's where I'm at as well.

 

[DeletedUser1016]

There's nothing that says that things have to get bigger and better for every Guest Race

....WELL.....bigger, maybe not; but I really think things should get better.....don't you? Otherwise what, perhaps worse? I mean - this is a building game - isn't it?