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    Your Elvenar Team

Remove Cross-Tier trade restriction

To me, the biggest resources in this game are space and time. Because time is so much more valuable than supplies or gold, I consider all T1, T2, and T3 goods to be equal. I think trading 1:4 or 1:16 is ridiculous because the supplies used are not worth nearly as much as the 3 hours.

Therefore, I like to cross-tier trade when needed, but I always trade 1:1 because they are equal to me. However, Inno has a restriction in place so it is impossible to trade T1 and T3 goods for less than a 1:4 ratio. I should be allowed to post whatever I want and I believe this restriction needs to be lifted. If I was to make a "bad" trade 1:1, then it should be my choice.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Producing 1,000 gems takes about 5x as much space(or time) as making 1,000 planks, so they are not equal. 16:1 is also unbalanced when considering time/space.

I'm sure if you offer 1,000 gems for 4,000 planks your trades will get taken, so the 4:1 restriction shouldn't hurt you.
On the other hand if the restriction was lifted and you posted 1,00 planks asking for 1,000 gems no one would be dumb enough to take it, so you'd just be wasting your time.
 
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Thanks Soggy, I was actually going the other way. I was offering 1000 gems for 1000 planks, but it wouldn't let me. It should still be my choice to post a "bad" trade.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
As a "trader: in many games I usually do quite well as I anticipate what will be needed as events come up and stockpile. In other words I buy low and sell high. However, the artificial limits make it difficult to emphasize trading as a game strategy in this game. I therefore think all restrictions should be removed, as well a the star ranking system. Let the players determine what trades for what and for how much. It would open another avenue of growth and play and make things more interesting. Then, while a player is "waiting for the paint to dry" her or she could "play the markets."
AJ
 

DeletedUser9469

Guest
The problem with that is false inflation... There was a game that I played years ago where open trading was allowed. This caused top tier players (who had mass wealth) to control the market. They could say 1 silk was equal to 100 marble for instance. This forces a lower level player to spend an exuberant amount of resources to acquire a very low amount of a higher resource.

On the flip side, if I produce 10 silk and undercut the average rate of 100 marble by say 10%, it appears to be a "better deal" but still falsely inflated. I think that keeping a ratio lock in place is a great idea to stop this from happening.

However, I think it would be a nice addition to allow a separate trading platform within a fellowship guild that allows for the locks to be broken. This would allow top tier players in a fellowship to help their guild mates of lower levels for the overall betterment of the fellowship.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
Pushing is a significant issue in resource-based games. Any breaking of the locks makes pushing easier.

Also, the current interface is prone to mis-clicks, which are already often annoying. The ability to post even worse trades would make that problem worse.
 
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ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
Basic economics says that a thing is worth what a person is willing to pay for it. Using artificial economic theory does not stimulate markets exactly because it create strictures against creativity. Let's suppose the "bigger players" do decide that marble is worth 100 times the price of steel. I've seen some pricing in some games quite ridiculous...but then I made a killing by producing those ridiculously priced items, and used the proceeds to eventually undercut those priciing -- eventually driving them down. (No, I didn't do it alone, there were a lot of people who saw the opportunity to b producers and thus, got rich off the larger players._ So in this game I, as a smaller player, would focus on marble production. That way I'm taking advantage of the fluctuating price and growing faster by doing so. The general rule is that commodity that is "overpriced" seldom stays that way for long. It's really just supply and demand. By paying attention you can profit off the fluctuations nicely.

I suspect that in the end the developers like the idea of a cooperative game and to avoid market competition and the tension it might engender, they have limited the ratios. In other words, the point is social engineering more than economics. So maybe they are right and I just missed the point. It woudn't be the first time. LOL

AJ
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Let's suppose the "bigger players" do decide that marble is worth 100 times the price of steel.
The thing is that the costs in this game are pretty much even within a tier. You need almost exactly the same amount of steel, marble and planks to progress through the entire thing. Also with a big enough playerbase, the distribution of boosts should balance out. Those 2 things combined are a strong force keeping the "value" the same.
Since no one has ever been remotely successful in driving down(or up) the value of one good in a tier even with the 4:1 allowance, a 100:1 would never happen. Especially since your trading isn't global. Only seeing trades within a few rings means that your actions within the trader really don't effect many players. I too have played games with a market and gotten "E-rich" (WoW and runescape FTW!) but it just isn't possible in Elvenar. If someone 5 rings to the right of you tries to dominate the market all you have to do is trade with someone 6 rings to the left where he can't reach, or even more unstoppable: trade within your FS.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Y'know, I NEVER thought I'd say this (and I've been reading posts for almost a year now) but... I'm with Soggy on this one.
That's my new favourite quote.:)

I think threads like this are why the devs don't implement some of changes that we ask for. A quick search will find a couple threads asking to remove the ability to post cross tier trades altogether.

Regardless of which is better, if the players are divided on issues the devs can't win by changing things.
 
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DeletedUser3507

Guest
Cross tier traded are a necessary evil,but necessary for helping new players if look you can give tier 3 trades tier 1 you just have to edit the second field down.
 

DeletedUser9276

Guest
Please no, If they're going to make the patches, please fix bugs or add on more meaningful things.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
I think threads like this are why the devs don't implement some of changes that we ask for.
I think the Devs are working from a design document, and the only time they pay any attention at all to what the players say is when there's some uncertainty at their end. Players are prone to look at issues in isolation, while the developers must make their primary consideration how they interrelate to the rest of the game. How the trader work has to connect in to the number of available goods, anti-cheating, coin balance, supplies balance, map expansion rates and probably a hundred subsystems that are all affected if it becomes cheaper or more expensive to move goods from one city to another.
 

DeletedUser8187

Guest
When you placing your trade you can offer more goods then demand. I think its good to have the inflation restrictions in place, and having the 1-2-3 stars rating in place. I usually scan for 2/3 star trades before doing a line by line search. 3 star trades are very very rare within my traders sphere. I would like to see the trader fee removed or decreased. People make fair trade offers, but with the trader fee included they can get pricey. Especially larger trades. Not sure the reason behind the trader fee. I tend to ask for less then I'm offering taking into account the trader fee that will get added on.

I hope they don't remove cross-tier trading. When I'm doing a tourney I use up/require 1 item (steel) negotiating. A quick way to get the item (steel) I need to get further ahead in the tourney is to offer a cross tier trade.

Not sure if people are over charging for items or not, but people can just skip those offers and look for more reasonable trade offers. Sometimes I'll go to place an trade and input the numbers to see how fair/unfair the trade is.
 

DeletedUser8187

Guest
@Goldenberry
In case you are curious about cross-tier values based on space I made an extreme example in another thread
https://beta.forum.elvenar.com/inde...ase-notes-version-1-17.6402/page-7#post-40769

Math was not my best class. I took a look and reread the thread. o_O Cross tier trades are bad because the higher the tier the harder you need to work (Space, time, supplies) to attain them?? The trader does not have a fair ratio set either?? Is there a ratio that works. Like 10 (steel, marble,planks) is worth ??(crystal, scroll, silk) and worth ##(dust, gems, elixir) Then 10 (crystal, scroll, silk) is worth ##(dust, gems, elixir).
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
5:2:1 was what we came up with instead of
16:4:1 which is the trader 2 star ratio.

Bottom line is you can't produce 16 planks as fast as you can produce 1 gem (in the same space), so many feel 16:1 is unfair.
Not everyone agrees with this, or even knows about the discussion though, so don't expect the 5:2:1 to be widely accepted. Less than .2% of players visit the forums.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
Cost vs Benefits

The costs of open trading is the possibility of inflated pricing and that the markets would be controlled by large players.
The benefits of open trading is that wider fluctuations in pricing create opportunities for traders to actually profit outside the current range and the ability of players to transfer larger resources than 16:1.

The costs of open trading are the objections to it and are generally raised to protect the prices of items becoming outside the reach of too many players, particularly the smaller ones. But I think those raising this possible scenario miss two important factors. First, trades are localize and Fellowship wide. In other words, the 150 or so with which I can trade (those within my range of discovery) and my FS mean that there would be only a small fraction of players I could effect if I were to try to control pricing. Even at the very top tier the number of players is probably around 500, a very small fraction of the number of players on the server. In other words the market leverage and scope I could enact would be insufficient to actually the markets outside my local influence. And while it is true that large players could collude the number of those large players needed to effect the general market and the scope of their coverage (the number of players they could influence by a concerted effort) would have to be quite high. Simply put, while not impossible, it would be highly, highly unlikely. Second, "inflated" prices would not have a long term sustainability. Anyone a few squares away and outside the direct influence of the "evil consortium" (lol) would be able to purchase from other players outside the scope of the large players influence and while it may be likely that those players may raise their prices to some degree, given the flow of the game, it would be a short term effect.

On the plus side though there are some nice benefits. First, if I want to transfer 100 T3 to a player he/she would need pay up 1600 T1 or 400 T2 items, for instance). The ratio's are artificially set. If the market was open the player desiring the resources could simply put up a 1 to whatever trade and I, as their benefactor, could pick it up. This would be a great way to assist really small and somewhat small players and thus encourage them to remain in the game. Second, an open market, while not perfect, would allow the players to set whatever price they wished for the trades, and thus, during shortages, those having the presence of mind to foreseen the shortages coming and to save up the resources, could actually do well. This adds an aspect to the game which would make it more appealing to some players (myself included).

In the end the costs of a open market are constricted by the game mechanics and the difficulty of organizing and maintaining any sort market control over a wide scope of players, while the two benefits add interest to the game and encourage greater participation. More participation is always better, in my opinion.

AJ
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
This would be a great way to assist really small and somewhat small players and thus encourage them to remain in the game.
You can already give smaller players massive amounts of T1 goods for T3 as is.
You are already allowed to give them 64,000 planks for 1K gems which for a new player is huge.
You can even give them back their 1K gems for 4K planks granting that player a net gain of 60,000 goods.
 
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