Sentient Goods are unbalanced

[StarLoad]

MichaelMichael, the explanation/excuse of your actions is that your FS does not produce enough steel (11% per elvenstats) and that you use the 10% platinum decay to supplement your steel needs. I will accept that as your truth. However, I don't understand why you produce NO, ZERO sentient goods (Moonstone, Obsidian, Bismuth), ok you say Bismuth is worthless but what about Moonstone and Obsidian your other Sentient goods?

S1 goods you have (1*) trades of Gum and Moonstone for Platinum at a .85 factor but no trades FOR Moonstone only (3*) trades offering Gum for Platinum at 1.03 to 1.04 again no way to support your trades as you produce nothing.

S2 goods, You have no problem with (3*) trades offering Obsidian and asking for Ink, and (1*) trades offering Ink for Obsidian, and the since you make NO S2 goods means you are feeding off the difference 1.02 and .85 factors that is parasitic in any language.

S3 goods, you trade offering Bismuth for Shrooms at 3* 1.05 to 1.07 factor and turn that into who knows as I don't see any other trades with Bismuth. I do see (1*) trades offering Soap for shrooms at a .85 factor, but again you make no S3 goods at all and yet you have Shrooms to offer that is in Very short supply.

The bottom line, my trades only look good because I work at it.

I am sorry but your trades do not look good to me at all. You can say it makes no sense to make Bismuth but you trade with it, even when you don't make it or any other sentient goods.
Sorry, I don't buy your statements and IMO you are abusing the trade market.

 

[Palavyn]

Sorry, I don't buy your statements and IMO you are abusing the trade market.

I don't think people like MichaelMichael are the problem. No one has to accept his trades. In fact, if you look at his trades and post a slightly better deal, then he's being helpful. Moonstone is relatively useless and Obsidian isn't the best so he's more of a victim than almost everyone else.

Having a discussion about what is a fair trade misses the point. The fact is it costs the same amount of resources to produce any of the sentient goods in any class. Thus, the problem is that some goods are ALWAYS worth significantly more than others, not that we can't figure that out.

 

[StarLoad]

I don't think people like MichaelMichael are the problem. No one has to accept his trades.

You are entitled to your opinion but, if I post a 3 star trade for say Soap (my boost) for Bismuth (what I need) and MichaelMichael grabs that trade so he can resell that soap for Shrooms, as noted. I bring this up as that player makes no sentient goods at all and therefore can only feed off the marketplace, without adding any value or goods to it. He is part of the Problem

No, MichaelMichael is not the cause but that account and one other in that FS are exploiting the shortage and distorting the situation out of control. MichaelMichael claims to be adding to the marketplace liquidity, when in fact the account is acting to exercise control by manipulation rather than production. If you cant get this concept, let me add this one thought, Nobody in the FS produces Shrooms and yet that is the one item that is being exploited fully by the members offering it in trade for other goods they do not produce.

You Cannot create liquidity by manipulation, neither could Enron, or Leahman Bros.

 

[MichaelMichael]

I cannot "Control" the market or manipulate it. It is what it is. Do I take trades offered that are below market value - every time. I do NOT manipulate the market. I can't. I admit I did try once, I lost my shirt just like the Hunt brothers did with silver. I thought Gum Tree was the most valuable commodity and bought all I could. It wasn't; the market prevailed and I need to sell it below the purchase price to get rid of it. I wasted my time and resources. It was a fun try, but it wasn't possible.

IMO you are abusing the trade market.

As for "abusing the trade system", you are 100% entitled to your opinion, but it seems more like a demand that others should trade ONLY as you trade. I have posited that the existence of Market Makers is an outcome permitted and probably desired by the designers; an open market with free trade, market based prices, and active trading making all goods available to the maximum extent possible. I might call that capitalism or the American way. The claim that I do not produce ANY sentient goods is absolutely correct,. That said, if I had several of each kind in production, would that change anything? That claim is a red herring, but it does point to the fact that "market maker" is a self limiting strategy - it cannot exist in a vacuum and if too many people pursued it, they would all fail or at least the gains would fall sharply. Does my strategy help me progress? yes it does. I suppose I am playing for enjoyment and I enjoy progressing and finding optima to progress faster. If more people chose the same strategy, would I need to alter mine? undoubtedly. The rules change all the time in Elvenar. I just try to do my best to get through each chapter and find an optima.

Does my play impact others? Yes it does. Who wins? and who loses? I do "win" - but it takes a great amount of time. It is play, so playing in itself is wining. Do I get enough goods to progress and help my fellowship? yes, I do. Does it hurt others? and does it help others.? Yes on both counts. First off, I hurt the lucky few who might take an outrageously good deal at 1:1 before me, but that is just the early bird getting the worm. I think much of the vitriol flows from large fellowships. My actions impact the way they play. Offering large quantities of the more valuable good at 1:1 are sometimes taken by me. Of course if they chose to post those deals the other way around, there would be ZERO impact. I inconvenience them, not really much hurt. Who does it help? I'd claim it helps those outside those same large fellowship (or what I might describe as cartels). The little guy logging on and needing platinum right now to complete his next upgrade in a fellowship that doesn't produce enough platinum. He can't ask a player in his fellowship to accept his trade for platinum, because the fellowship doesn't produce it. Without market makers, it is often hard to find rare goods in the marketplace.. The little guy can pay a premium to me get his platinum immediately or can look at the bid ask spread, offer something in the middle and get what he needs in an few hours. He gets that choice, If alternatively no platinum is offered at all, because the cartels only trade between themselves and actively seek to bring those few large producers of the rarer commodities into their cartels, It can get very hard for others to get those goods at all. Of course, the most extreme three star offers might be accepted by the big guys (after all the cartel members are taken care of).

I'd ask a question for those on my world, if I stopped trading and you offered even-steven Shrooms for Bismuth, how long would that trade sit there? If you offered the opposite Bismuth for Shrooms, how long would that sit there? If you are in a large fellowship, someone might help you. If you are the first sentient good manufacturer in your fellowship (as I was), how long would you wait? Is the opportunity to get Shrooms at 4:5, a bad thing? Would it better if there were no offers? I can assure you that 1:1 (or close) Shrooms for Bismuth offered in the trade market is few and far between, virtually non-existent for weeks on end. My trades provide information in the marketplace. Make an offer between the bid-ask spread and your deal will likely close at a fair price. All the deals I offer are ones likely to close. How exactly are things better without my 4:5 offer?

 

[SoggyShorts]

@MichaelMichael
I gotta say, the most impressive thing about what you do is how you try to frame it in such a way to make you look like the good guy. Calling yourself a "market maker" and fellowships who try to trade fairly "cartels" is hilarious.
I'm not saying that what you are doing is evil but it certainly isn't as altruistic as you try and make it sound. I dispute that you are adding value. The fact that you and your FS are not producing is proof that there are fewer goods out in the world because of what you are doing.
Sure, sometimes producers of some goods had a harder time getting trades at 1:1 if their boost was common, but with your market manipulation, the number of trades at worse than 1:1 has increased, and on average the entire community outside of your FS has to produce more resources because of your trade tactics.

That being said, I actually kinda respect what you are doing as I too once liked to play such mini-games. The first company I ever owned was on Runescape, and I had over 50 employees at one point. I was making a fat profit as what is basically a glorified(and really not necessary) middle man- much like yourself.

 

[StarLoad]

Do I take trades offered that are below market value - every time

And every trade you take you re-sell and that is the issue, you slurp up all the trades and then horde the goods and only trade at factors of .78 to .85 Quite far from a 1.02 to 1.05 that you offer to get the goods

I'd ask a question for those on my world, if I stopped trading and you offered even-steven Shrooms for Bismuth, how long would that trade sit there?

I have put up trades and never waited more than a day for them, usually, I can find them already placed. Last night I put up 3 trades
1) bismuth for shrooms , taken in less than an hour by a non-FS member
2) bismuth for soap, taken in 3 hours by a FS member
3) bismuth for soap, taken in 3 hours by a non-FS member


So YES, please stop trading and let us see how the market reacts ...

 

[MichaelMichael]

1) bismuth for shrooms , taken in less than an hour by a non-FS member

Really, right now, the best offer (not me) is 11,000 Bismuth for 10,000 Shrooms. I have about 300,000 Bismuth traded to me in the last few hours as many people will do almost anything to get rid of BIsmuth for something (or anything) useful. If I put those up at 1:1. In less than an hour some, if not all, would close according to your experience. I am happy for those 40 pages of Bismuth for Shrooms offers that will close as soon as you suggest. Frankly, if I knew it was so easy, I can't understand why so many people sent me so much Bismuth in the past few hours giving me 5:4 when they had such better options.

It is a rare day that I ever accept a trade for Bismuth because it is so much less valued than anything else.. I also do not generally accept trades for Shrooms as they don't appear at less than 2:3 if at all. It is the market not me, that sets the price. I post Shrooms at a price I would might accept in need. Outside of Bismuth, I accept counter offers in the bid ask spread. Truth be told, my price for trades yielding Bismuth is a little higher than I might accept, because frankly I always get far more than I want,. The market supply of Bismuth grossly outstrip demand, despite any bias for 2 star trades. Posting Shrooms is apparently my great sin. Prices are better on both sides of the bid ask spread because of my actions and that somehow hurts you and makes you worse off. This is a market where I don't take trades - other markets I do.

BTW, You can't have it both ways. Either 1:1 trades are alive well or the action of market makers has destroyed them. Is the complaint about 5:4 trades? or the 9:10 trades? BTW, I cut my price to 9:10 to reflect the new market price. What exactly is wrong with your trading at the fair market price of say 8:7? At that price, I wouldn't try to beat it and I wouldn't take it (unless I was in great need, which happens to me as it does to everyone else).

I will challenge you on the tier 3 market. Is there any test, that would prove to you that market makers help? or is your mind closed? I will consider aiding in a test for a few days if your mind is not closed to that possibility and we come up with some reasonable test. I can keep some bismuth and trade it in quantitiies similar to how much I might produce if that helps. I will also note who trades it to me (if I get any at 1:1). If that works, who knows, I might revive my Bismuth Manufactury. I could even find space for it during the test, if you think that makes any difference. I also expect other market makers might appear. Right now, I am the only player offering Shrooms at any price - and then only for Soap as my last set of offers was scooped up so fast

 

[SoggyShorts]

It is the market not me, that sets the price.

When other players post shrooms or soap for sale are you buying it up and reposting at a higher price? If so, you are setting the price.

BTW, You can't have it both ways. Either 1:1 trades are alive well or the action of market makers has destroyed them.

1:1 trades were fine for the most part, and Market Manipulators like yourself have made it worse.

Is there any test, that would prove to you that market makers help?

Sure, here's the test: Do you have more goods* today than you had yesterday? Last week? 2 weeks ago?<insert other time-frame here>
If the answer to any of those is "yes" then you are a drain on the economy and not a boon.

*(accounting for any you gave to FS members or spent yourself)

 

[MichaelMichael]

When other players post shrooms or soap for sale are you buying it up and reposting at a higher price? If so, you are setting the price.

I will agree that when NO ONE else offers a good, I do set a price. As for buying up Shrrooms, it doesn't happen for Bismuth, I do sometimes find a stray offer for soap, perhaps every few days, but they don't stay on the marked for long. I try to take them, but most of the time, I don't get those. I will admit greater success on Tier 1 & 2.

 

[SoggyShorts]

I will agree that when NO ONE else offers a good, I do set a price.

If you are like the Market Manipulators on other servers, you are buying all of the decent trades offering the 2 less abundant goods and reposting them at a higher price. That's price control.

How about that test I suggested above? How are the results?

 

[MichaelMichael]

Sure, here's the test: Do you have more goods* today than you had yesterday? Last week? 2 weeks ago?<insert other time-frame here>
If the answer to any of those is "yes" then you are a drain on the economy and not a boon.

So if I ever have more rather than less of anything, that is unfair. Okay I fail, but like EVERYONE else, my goods go up and down. I am on Chapter 15, Sentient goods disappear like water. I have less today than a week ago, but long term I am pretty much near a steady state but probably tracking down with the losses each night and expenses slightly exceeding what I trade for each day. You can usually count my inventory as it is usually all out for trade. I have working inventory for trading and not much more. Most mornings I have less and can't put up a 2nd 64k offer for a several goods. I know it is unfair because I have more than you and don't pursue the same strategy do. Frankly if I had more than I could use, I would not waste my time trading. I use what I get. You also can see when I am stretched. If I offer 16k or 8k lots or only 1 64k offer, I don't have many reserves.

Bottom line, by your definition I take out more goods than I produce consequently I am a drain,

My position is that I actually only accept trades people choose to post and only get back goods on my trade when people willingly accept them. Why did people place those offers? or accept my offers? I'd say because they thought they'd be better off. When I accept a deal, it closes sooner, I think that is something we'd all like. When I offer a deal no body holds a gun their head - they take it because it makes their situation better. All deals are optional. Everyone only posts deals that they want to close. That means every deal is a BENEFIT to both parties.

Your real complaint is perhaps that I get more of the best deals (freely offered( before you do, and that is somehow unfair. I have no unfair advantage. I'd call it a superior strategy. Perhaps we have to agree to disagree.

 

[SoggyShorts]

So if I ever have more rather than less of anything, that is unfair.......
Bottom line, by your definition I take out more goods than I produce consequently I am a drain,

It seems like you are brushing this off, but yes, of course you are.

If you
1. produce nothing
2. pay for research
3. share with FS members
4. spend in the spire
and
5. still manage to make a profit
You can try to polish that turd, lipstick that pig, or "Market Maker" that Manipulation all you want, but you are very clearly a parasite on the economy.

 

[Ashrem]

I will challenge you on the tier 3 market. Is there any test, that would prove to you that market makers help? or is your mind closed?

I think the issue is your definition of market makers. On Felyndral, I process more than a million sentient goods a day, frequently more than 2 million. I offer my Gum and Bismuth at a negligible discount for mostly platinum and Shrooms, and when it is taken, I turn around and fill the smallest available requests for Platinum and shrooms*, often clearing a dozen pages or more. Then I offer what's left of my plat and shrrooms at about a 5-10% markup, and repeat the process the next day. I don't come out appreciably ahead beyond my own production, and I frequently take 200+ trades a day, often getting the total sentient trades on Felyndral below 40 pages. meanwhile i watch another player offer his latinum and shooms at a 50% markup, day after day after day, with no sign that he ever gives any of it back to smaller players. The only extent to which you are facilitating trade is the extent to which you find it profitable at levels that leave other people feeling bad when they take your trades by accident or out of desperation. I don't think that's a good definition of a market maker.

* I've noted of late that some people have caught on, and instead of offering 10k for 10k or 20 for 20, will offer 10 or 30 trades of 1k for 1k. I've started bypassing some of those.

 

[Ashrem]

Bottom line, by your definition I take out more goods than I produce consequently I am a drain,

Correct. If you are consuming without producing, you are a drain.

Middle men have a place when not everyone can find what they need consistently, but everyone on the server has access to the same sentient trades as everyone else. Nobody needs middlemen skimming sentient trades to make trading possible.

 

[Kekune]

only get back goods on my trade when people willingly accept them.

This is a really big assumption.

I'll stay out of the larger discussion, which isn't my thing. But when the UI is really screwy and difficult to navigate (as the mobile trader clearly is) there's a VERY good chance that some of those "willing" trades are unwilling mis-clicks. I won't hazard a guess as to how many, but I've more than once lost goods I actually needed to a crappy trade I didn't intend to consent to. You are, at least sometimes, taking advantage of that.

 

[MichaelMichael]

clearly a parasite on the economy.

Okay, we are done. I choose not to devolve to name calling

 

[DeletedUser6326]

I won't hazard a guess as to how many, but I've more than once lost goods I actually needed to a crappy trade I didn't intend to consent to. You are, at least sometimes, taking advantage of that.

Yes, very much this. I'm pretty tired of accidentally taking crappy sentient trades from those who refuse to play nicely in the Trader.

I only post sentient trades as 3 stars (usually giving 6,000 and asking for 5,000 of whatever I need). I do this for various reasons but also as a kindness to the community because I know how difficult sentient goods can be to acquire for some players.
When the "Trader Trolls" are out taking up all of the 3 star trades they can... and then turn them around to make a profit, it's maddening. We aren't here for your benefit alone. Use them if you need them but why spend your time taking from others? That's petty and lame. You definitely aren't part of the peaceful building community.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Okay, we are done. I choose not to devolve to name calling

Mmhmm smells like someone ran out of counterpoints. It's not "devolving into name calling" to use an objectively accurate description.

Your actions in the economy are to feed off of it without contributing anything in return. (What's that called?)
If you were making a return contribution, I would have referred to the relationship as symbiotic and you as a symbiote.

 

[MichaelMichael]

I won't hazard a guess as to how many, but I've more than once lost goods I actually needed to a crappy trade I didn't intend to consent to..

We all make mis-clicks. I recently deleted my Bllooming Trader guild. BTW, I will gladly reverse (and have) reversed trades in that category. That is taking unfair advantage. I make those mistakes most days, some times I can undo them other times I lose out. For my strategy, that is the cost of doing business. For others, I will gladly re-imburse those. I don't see many in that category unless 1:1s count.

 

[MichaelMichael]

Mmhmm smells like someone ran out of counterpoints. It's not "devolving into name calling" to use an objectively accurate description.

Your actions in the economy are to feed off of it without contributing anything in return. (What's that called?)
If you were making a return contribution, I would have referred to the relationship as symbiotic and you as a symbiote.

My points were made, you rejected them. I suppose everyone not in Farming or Manufacturing in the US are all parasites especially those terrible retailers and wholesalers..