Should tournaments be based on squad size?

[Ashrem]

Why not make it so that even if you don't research a squad size from a previous age, as soon as you age up, it's counted anyways?

Because they want to keep combat as an option for everyone. under that methodology, anyone with no optional squad sizes would eventually be completely unable to fight.

 

[DeletedUser8382]

Because they want to keep combat as an option for everyone. under that methodology, anyone with no optional squad sizes would eventually be completely unable to fight.

You can't have it both ways. You can't reward people for skipping (they spend less KP) and let them fight as well as those who spend the KP to fight. Even making this change, it'd probably be worthwhile to skip all optional squad sizes, since KP is nearly impossible to earn extra of (except through tournaments), and I'm pretty sure the Per/Square math works out to favor those who only negotiate/cater over those who mix or only combat.

 

[Ashrem]

You can't have it both ways.

It's possible you can't, but that's what happens when a game tries to expand their user base. They have to keep existing customer from getting so upset they leave, while generating appeal for new customers. There are already players who want combat to be completely optional, with two different tracks for those who do, or don't, want to fight. Treating people as though they had bought the optional squad sizes when they didn't would not make them happy, and since many of the optional squad sizes require guest race goods that they can no longer make, forcing them to take those squad sizes is likely to drive some away.

Answers are rarely as simple as anyone would like to be believe.

 

[DeletedUser3507]

Why not make it so that even if you don't research a squad size from a previous age, as soon as you age up, it's counted anyways?

So that way, you still gradually increase difficulty during an age, but skipping previous ages have no real benefit.

Boy your trying for the most hated post

 

[DeletedUser8382]

It's possible you can't, but that's what happens when a game tries to expand their user base. They have to keep existing customer from getting so upset they leave, while generating appeal for new customers. There are already players who want combat to be completely optional, with two different tracks for those who do, or don't, want to fight. Treating people as though they had bought the optional squad sizes when they didn't would not make them happy, and since many of the optional squad sizes require guest race goods that they can no longer make, forcing them to take those squad sizes is likely to drive some away.

Answers are rarely as simple as anyone would like to be believe.

But it IS completely optional. You can negotiate every single thing in the game where you'd fight. The only exception are some skippable, repeating quests. Negotiating & Catering, on the other hand, aren't really optional at all. At a certain point, no matter how heavily invested you are in military, you can't win, but you can keep negotiating/catering.

I'm almost certain that doing a zero combat game is highly in your favor, so much so, that a few weeks ago, I started a new world doing exactly that. It will be interesting to see the progress of that.

 

[SoggyShorts]

I'm almost certain that doing a zero combat game is highly in your favor, so much so, that a few weeks ago, I started a new world doing exactly that. It will be interesting to see the progress of that.

Certainly not in all stages of the game. I believe @TedGrau has some numbers on efficiency of catering vs fighting that show fighting is way better.

 

[Ashrem]

But it IS completely optional.

Sure it's completely optional. But you're talking about making tournaments (the one likely entry point for people who don't prefer to do combat) harder for those that skipped the optional techs. Right now, I can participate a little, having good success in the first round, mediocre success in the second round, and poor results in the third round, usually giving up pretty quickly. You're suggesting that my fights be based on the 8 squad sizes I've chosen not to take, at which point there's no reason for me to bother any more. You might be fine with that. I would be disappointed. The developers have to balance your desires against mine. My opinion is that basing tournaments on the assumption that everyone in a given chapter has a given squad size is a negative option.

 

[samidodamage]

Expanding on what Ashrem said, you would also make it harder for players who have never played combat games before. I came here for the city building/real time strategy part of the game, having never played a combat game and only catering. I revisited that strategy in Chapter 4 and tried to learn the combat system. The tournaments were the place I was able to learn the battle system and now I kinda like it. I fight in the tournaments as long as I can win (I'm Chapter 6 now and when I get to the rounds that have 3 star enemy units, I'm not there yet, so I cater). I use a mix of fighting/negotiating in regular provinces and have successfully done all 8 encounters in a couple regular provinces by only fighting. I'm not sure what enemy squad sizes in tournaments should be based on, but whatever it is it should not make tournaments harder unless they are not interested in hooking folks who have never even looked at a game with an emphasis on combat.

 

[DeletedUser9399]

EDITED:
1) Tournament SS should be based on training speed of Barracks. If you have Training Ground or Merc Camp with higher speed than Barracks' than tourney SS should be based on the highest speed military building and NOT based on squad size. The AW training speed bonus should not be factored in SS size as it should act as bonus, not penalty.
2) The rewards should be also scaled with the tourney SS. Larger the SS required from the player the larger the rewards (more KPs, relics and spells) to make it feel like we have achieve something. Otherwise progressing in research is currently completely offset by tourney size. That is no progress at all. Why just not stay in chapter 2 or 3 and complete more tourney provinces than anybody else by just negotiating for coins, supplies and minimal amount of lvl 1 goods?

What is tournament "SS"?
How is training speed calculated? What is the algorithm?
If my Current "Training Speed" = 31 (how do I calculate what my total minutes to train a particular troop type will be?)

For that matter, what is the algorithm to determine the number of troops trained in a session based upon troop type?

 

[SoggyShorts]

What is tournament "SS"?
How is training speed calculated? What is the algorithm?
If my Current "Training Speed" = 31 (how do I calculate what my total minutes to train a particular troop type will be?)

For that matter, what is the algorithm to determine the number of troops trained in a session based upon troop type?

• SS= Squad Size
• Training speed is based on 12 minutes to train 1 basic unit
• 31 training speed means you can train 31 basic units in 12 minutes
• Training size is the number of basic units you can queue up at one time. The base is 6, and can be increased by armories, the dwarven bulwark and shrewdy shrooms wonders.

 

[DeletedUser8382]

Any scaling based off of things the player controls will be min-maxed so that players invest the least amount of units in tournaments possible.

If you scale it based off training speed, players will avoid training speed. If you scale it off squad size, players will avoid raising squad size. If you scale it off expansions, players will avoid expansions. If you scale it off age (Like Forge of Empires), some players will sit at the same age for months/years, preferring easier combats while they invest all their KP into their AW. Etc.

At least in Elvenaar, you can't get every AW at every age, so tying scaling more closely to age is the only thing that makes sense.

 

[DeletedUser8382]

Sure it's completely optional. But you're talking about making tournaments (the one likely entry point for people who don't prefer to do combat) harder for those that skipped the optional techs. Right now, I can participate a little, having good success in the first round, mediocre success in the second round, and poor results in the third round, usually giving up pretty quickly. You're suggesting that my fights be based on the 8 squad sizes I've chosen not to take, at which point there's no reason for me to bother any more. You might be fine with that. I would be disappointed. The developers have to balance your desires against mine. My opinion is that basing tournaments on the assumption that everyone in a given chapter has a given squad size is a negative option.

You're playing very poorly, then. Goods are a resource that you gain exponentially. You're pretty much stuck at 25 KP a day forever, unless you do tournaments (or make the poor decision to raise Tome of Secrets). So paying goods for tournaments, especially after skipping all those squad size techs, makes a lot of sense. I get around 10 KP a day extra for doing tournaments in Age VI. Also, I've already maxed my Tier 1 goods relics, and am close to maxing T2 & T3. Meanwhile, all the top players in my fellowship that skip tournaments are around 300 relics.

 

[Ashrem]

You're playing very poorly, then. Goods are a resource that you gain exponentially. You're pretty much stuck at 25 KP a day forever, unless you do tournaments (or make the poor decision to raise Tome of Secrets). So paying goods for tournaments, especially after skipping all those squad size techs, makes a lot of sense. I get around 10 KP a day extra for doing tournaments in Age VI. Also, I've already maxed my Tier 1 goods relics, and am close to maxing T2 & T3. Meanwhile, all the top players in my fellowship that skip tournaments are around 300 relics.

on what basis do you decide I'm playing very poorly? My discussion was about fighting in tournaments, not the entire extent of everything I do in the game. I indicated how I do in the combat. I also negotiate some of the provinces. I'm getting about 90-100kp/week from 16 tournament provinces in a FS that typically opens 7-9 chests. How, exactly, am I "playing very poorly"?

 

[SoggyShorts]

You're pretty much stuck at 25 KP a day forever, unless you do tournaments (or make the poor decision to raise Tome of Secrets).

It seems you haven't bothered doing the math on this. Since the last balancing of the ToS it is better than a max level workshop even at level 1 for supplies/square as long as you scout every 48h or less. Careful with your claims that others are "playing poorly" when you yourself don't have a perfect grasp of all of the game mechanics.

 

[DeletedUser7370]

pretty much stuck at 25 KP a day

Why so slow? If I don't count the tournaments I get 30 KP per day. Averaging the KP gain from tournaments brings that up to about 37 for me.

 

[DeletedUser8382]

It seems you haven't bothered doing the math on this. Since the last balancing of the ToS it is better than a max level workshop even at level 1 for supplies/square as long as you scout every 48h or less. Careful with your claims that others are "playing poorly" when you yourself don't have a perfect grasp of all of the game mechanics.

I said 25 FP a day. There's 24 hours in a day, where do you think I got the extra 1 KP from? A level 1 ToS. You can choose to invest over a thousand KP to get 2 a day, which would require over 3 years of collecting daily for it to pay itself off in KP. Raising it gives you more supplies, when you scout, which you can only do periodically (there is a hardcap on provences based on your MH level). However, you could instead raise Prosperity Towers, getting supplies every 3 hours, and also making your PoP spells so much more effective.

on what basis do you decide I'm playing very poorly?

You said you were giving up after 3 rounds of tournaments. That sounded like you were doing very few tournaments. I imagined your tournaments looked something like this: 1) *** 2) *** 3) ** 4) ** 5) * 6) *

You know that the 1st round of the 15th Provence is harder than the last round of the 1st province, right?

Why so slow? If I don't count the tournaments I get 30 KP per day. Averaging the KP gain from tournaments brings that up to about 37 for me.

I was thinking 24 hours a day, plus 1 from a level 1 ToS. You probably also average 1 a day from neighborly help treasure chests. I also didn't count KP from complete provinces, since that's not really "daily" income. I know it takes a long time to hit cap on provinces, but there is a cap (you can no longer pay the gold cost to scout even with a max level MH).

 

[DeletedUser7370]

I was thinking 24 hours a day, plus 1 from a level 1 ToS. You probably also average 1 a day from neighborly help treasure chests. I also didn't count KP from complete provinces, since that's not really "daily" income. I know it takes a long time to hit cap on provinces, but there is a cap (you can no longer pay the gold cost to scout even with a max level MH).

Getting 1 from NH is luck. The reality is:

I earn enough coins to buy 4 or 6 KP every day. Look at that 767K price again. Two KP is over 1.5 million coins. I do that twice every day, plus some so that it averages to 5 KP purchased every day.

Now would you like to say how someone is playing this game poorly again?

 

[Ashrem]

You said you were giving up after 3 rounds of tournaments. That sounded like you were doing very few tournaments. I imagined your tournaments looked something like this: 1) *** 2) *** 3) ** 4) ** 5) * 6) * You know that the 1st round of the 15th Provence is harder than the last round of the 1st province, right?

And I said I was only talking about combat, not negotiating. Typically, my provinces actually look like this:
1) ****** 2) ****** 3) ***** 4) ***** 5) **** 6) **** 7) * 8) * 9) * 10) ** 11) ** 12) ** 13) ** 14) ** 15) ** 16) **
You know that round two of provinces 10 and up give you 5 kp each, right?

 

[DeletedUser8382]

Getting 1 from NH is luck. The reality is:View attachment 2419
I earn enough coins to buy 4 or 6 KP every day. Look at that 767K price again. Two KP is over 1.5 million coins. I do that twice every day, plus some so that it averages to 5 KP purchased every day.

Now would you like to say how someone is playing this game poorly again?

I was trying to include renewable KP gain, only. I excluded anything that was, in theory, limited. Since provences, purchased KP, etc scale in cost, I didn't include them.

Also, to clarify, the people who are "Playing poorly" are the ones who aren't doing Tournaments at all, and not getting that free KP.

And I said I was only talking about combat, not negotiating. Typically, my provinces actually look like this:
1) ****** 2) ****** 3) ***** 4) ***** 5) **** 6) **** 7) * 8) * 9) * 10) ** 11) ** 12) ** 13) ** 14) ** 15) ** 16) **
You know that round two of provinces 10 and up give you 5 kp each, right?

Ok, I totally misunderstood what you were saying, then. Again, when I said people were playing poorly, I was referring to players who don't do tournaments, or who don't negotiate tournaments after fighting (since you can get further, as you pointed out). I'm similar to you, in that I fight early rounds, then start negotiating. Some of the "poor players" I was referring to are the people in my Fellowship who have been playing for 2 years and have half as many relics as me, somebody who started during the egg event this year.

Also, it is a poor decision to level up your ToS with the idea that it'll give you more KP. I don't care to redo my math, but it's over 1000 kp to get to 2 kp a day. I do think it's probably worth the space it takes up at level 1, though. Somebody else might disagree, but renewable KP is very hard to get in this game, especially compared to FoE, which I started a month before Elvenaar, and in that game, I get 100 "KP" a day just from buildings and regen. (In FoE, they are called Forge Points or FP, but they are identical in function)

 

[slikkdogg]

I am not sure what method I would choose. I just know that I started this game about 3 months ago and that I joined a fellowship about 2 months ago. I like fighting in the tournaments but I find that by round 3 I'm facing 3 star units and losing more troops than I care to lose. I think that whatever system they are using right now is highly demoralizing to new players. I think that I have a pretty good grasp on tactics and troop movements but what good does it do for me to face 3 Star units when I am fighting them with 1 or 2 star troops. Also it is extremely unfair to fight 7 or 8 units when the max I can put on the field is 5. What about allowing me the option to field more troops?
I enjoy all your comments and I will continue to fight but I would just love to see it get easier to fight in tournaments.