Twilight phoenix - the first poison pill in Elvenar...

[Gkyr]

...that I am aware of.

The Twilight Phoenix (hereafter referred to as 'the bird') can be acquired by anyone in any chapter since the base is given early. Newbies will have the base and perhaps a handful of artifacts and perhaps they will try to buy more.

The downside of the bird rests on its measly 12-hour duration. Any player of modest means habitually trying it for 6 or even fewer rounds of Tourney or even through just the High Halls of the Spire will find their supply of Pet Food RAPIDLY depleted.

It is a Food disposer for the unprepared. Fortunately, the bitter nature of the pill will discourage smaller cities from continuing to feed it and, unless they appreciate its drops, it might well get inventoried. Equally as bitter, the effect of the bird when only partially evolved and also when used with small armies is a barely-audible "meh.".

The usefulness of the bird becomes amazing when fully evolved and used in conjunction with a Polar Bear and at least a level 12 Timewarp. [This statement is made for the benefit of players who do not know about such things; I realize that there is a large contingent of experienced players who are already doing this - and more). The ability to do 2 rounds of the Tourney within 12 hours seems to be the minimum condition for the bird to demonstrate its usefulness, which only increases as the level of the Timewarp AW increases and allows a player to do 3, 4, 5 or all 6 rounds of the Tourney within 12 hours.

Therefore, this building is a liability or just plain useless for a newby to employ. It is the first and only building that I am aware of that should be acquired but remain in inventory until the completion of chapter 14.

 

[getmomo]

I have no plans of ever putting that building in my city.

 

[MichaelMichael]

The usefulness of the bird becomes amazing when fully evolved and used in conjunction with a Polar Bear and at least a level 12 Timewarp. [This statement is made for the benefit of players who do not know about such things; I realize that there is a large contingent of experienced players who are already doing this - and more). The ability to do 2 rounds of the Tourney within 12 hours seems to be the minimum condition for the bird to demonstrate its usefulness, which only increases as the level of the Timewarp AW increases and allows a player to do 3, 4, 5 or all 6 rounds of the Tourney within 12 hours.

Okay, I have a level 12 Timewarp and I could put out a high level Polar Bear. Still seems like a waste of pet food. 5% troop recovery amounts to next to nothing. I would be far better keeping my Brown Bear fully energized all the time (50% more troops), had I the pet food to support it. The bird is useless. I saw one high level player with 2 fully developed birds. Even at 10% recovery, it seems marginal at best. I often put out 5 building to support fighting plus energizing the Fire Phoenix, but this building seems like a waste of space. Please convince me otherwise. I'd like to think this is useful but I very much doubt it.

I have occasionally climbed to the top of the Spire in a few hours and often get 3 rounds in the tourney off one use of pet food on my fire phoenix. Over time, I have discovered you can never have enough time instants but about half go to crafting (balance for troops) and most of my fighting has ended up as catering for most tourney efforts past the 20th or so province. I do 35 each week. The first 8-10 are fights but losses are very light. Provinces 11-20 can generate significant losses. In spots I can win a few in the 21-35 range. 5% recovery amounts to nothing IMO. I suppose I could jam a lot into 12 hours, but would it be worth more than another cycle of my brown bear? Would the time instants to jam the Spire into that same 12 hour time frame be worth more than producing troops with those time instants? I will admit I have more of a goods strategy than a fight strategy but I do both. It may be that this is like the Dragon Abbey AW - huge in its day but just a marginal impact (convenience) in the later game. FYI, I will finish chapter 19 in couple weeks.

My take right now is that wholesaling is most amazing with supporting spells and AWs. Wholesaling produces more goods for EACH of my non-boosted goods than 7 fully developed boosted goods manufacturies even with supporting spells and AWs. As I develop more of my fighting AWs, (most are levels 12-19), perhaps this bird may look better. I think I would put out and use my Aureate Phoenix before this one.

 

[Bellerefon]

I find it more beneficial on Spire's 2 or 3-round battles where keeping troops alive between rounds might change the battle outcome.
Gold run yields at least 33 5-hr boosters, so it is not uncommon for someone to finish all floor 3 in 12 hrs. Ppl are time boosting it all the time anyways.

On Polar Bear comparison, you will have to take in account how much are your losses (-5%) through the rounds that you used it and then compare to Polar Bear's +50% production yield. The outcome has a large variance. Thus, yes, it is debatable.

More positive, than negative, my opinion.

 

[Raccon]

I find it more beneficial on Spire's 2 or 3-round battles where keeping troops alive between rounds might change the battle outcome.

I just finished auto fighting the second last 3 wave encounter in spier;
First enemy wave was 3 mist walkers and two mages.
Second wave was identical to the first but a mist walker was replaced with a mortar.
Third wave consisted of two dogs, an anciant orc, a mortar and an orc deserter.

I used 5 dogs;
Finished the first wave with few losses.
Finished the second wave with two sqads at 40% (thanks to the mortar) So I revived those two with 30% vitality surge.
Despite the added 30% vitality surge to my two 40% squas, I lost the third wave.

Second attemt;
I used the same troops, with the same percentage of damaged squads in the first two waves, but this time I used two 50% vitality surge and won the battle.

This experience proves that 5% is a far cry to make a difference when my three 100% squads + two 70% squads (40% existing each + 30% vitality surge each) still weren't sufficient to change the outcome!

 

[StarLoad]

Well, I have 2 Level 10 TP's (Twilight Phoenix's) and for this week's push tourney, I fed them both. I placed 1 DA and 2 UUU & MMM, 1 ELR, and fed my Fire Chicken. With my Level 32 TW and my level 6 Polar Bear I have a 48min cooldown and will do all 6 rounds of 40 provinces this week.
This will cost me 4 Petfoods total and I will complete the spire too.

I have tested this out in prior weeks and the 5% and now10% revival does make a difference and I find many battles with ZERO losses using my Blossom Princesses and Pro Rangers including on provinces in the upper 30's. So in my opinion and with the lower losses, I feel that for higher-level cities the use of TP's is worth the petfood, but for my lower-level cities I did not go for the prize and it would be useless.

Ed

 

[StarLoad]

Just did round 3 and I looked at the battles after completion and the 10% revival made a difference in losses, Yes it is only 10% of your troop but if your losses are not heavy it does seem worth it.

For the tournament, In fact, I did not use any of my Vitality surges as I would save them for Spire multi-part battles only.

[edited to add] Also comparing it to the Brown Bear does not include the use of Instants needed to fully use the limited Brown Bear bonus time effectively.

 

[Raccon]

Well, I have 2 Level 10 TP's (Twilight Phoenix's) and for this week's push tourney, I fed them both. I placed 1 DA and 2 UUU & MMM, 1 ELR, and fed my Fire Chicken. With my Level 32 TW and my level 6 Polar Bear I have a 48min cooldown and will do all 6 rounds of 40 provinces this week.
This will cost me 4 Petfoods total and I will complete the spire too.
I have tested this out in prior weeks and the 5% and now10% revival does make a difference and I find many battles with ZERO losses using my Blossom Princesses and Pro Rangers including on provinces in the upper 30's. So in my opinion and with the lower losses, I feel that for higher-level cities the use of TP's is worth the petfood, but for my lower-level cities I did not go for the prize and it would be useless.

Ed

Agreed, 5% return is about making your losses a little less than normal.
I was under impression that this thread was about the 5% revival 'might change the battle outcome' in between spier waves though!

I find it more beneficial on Spire's 2 or 3-round battles where keeping troops alive between rounds might change the battle outcome.

 

[StarLoad]

Agreed, 5% return is about making your losses a little less than normal.
I was under impression that this thread was about the 5% revival 'might change the battle outcome' in between spier waves though!

Raccon, the OP was complaining about the TP in general and I disagree with that idea in some cases. And the 5% or even 10% is not going to "make-or-break" a battle on the spire waves battles. That is where the vitality surge is most useful.

Ed

 

[Tehya1]

So you have to have at least TWO TPs PLUS a timewarp PLUS a polar bear (or lots of timers if you don't have tw or pb) PLUS a truckload of buffs PLUS a fed fire bird to make the TP useful? lol

 

[StarLoad]

So you have to have at least TWO TPs PLUS a timewarp PLUS a polar bear (or lots of timers if you don't have tw or pb) PLUS a truckload of buffs PLUS a fed fire bird to make the TP useful? lol

No, I said its a "push" week so I am going to go with maximum effect to get 10K points for the FS. I can do fine at 6K points just feeding the Fire Chicken, and nothing else.
Like I said it can be useful but it shines in higher cities with some good support.

Ed

 

[Gkyr]

The posts in this thread illustrate the very wide variety of gaming approaches and strategies in a very small sample. I see no problem with the bird itself; the problem occurs if a player employs it using a inappropriate city. What cities? Well, cities in the first 13 chapters, caterers, low frequency players for starters. Leaving aside categories, it either works for you or it doesn't. But cities that are most likely to appreciate it are high frequency players with high level timewarps and manual fighters.

the OP was complaining about the TP in general and I disagree with that idea in some cases.

Actually, I wasn't. Just pointing out the unintended consequences of using the bird without planning for it.

On Polar Bear comparison, you will have to take in account how much are your losses (-5%) through the rounds that you used it and then compare to Polar Bear's +50% production yield. The outcome has a large variance. Thus, yes, it is debatable.

Exactly.

I just finished auto fighting...
This experience proves that 5%... still weren't sufficient to change the outcome!

I was under impression that this thread was about the 5% revival 'might change the battle outcome' in between spier waves though!

I think it is very useful for manual fighters and also think it takes some of the sting out of auto-fighting, where losses are higher.
But...at the risk of sounding harsh, but I mean this respectfully, the bird will never substitute for a buffed army, good troop selection and good initial troop placement when it comes to winning or losing a battle.
I have found that, even in the easy initial Tourney battles, losing 100 Golems here and a thousand archers there can really add up without my tracking it. IMO, a 5% troop salvage iterated over many times really adds up more than I had realized.

And the 5% or even 10% is not going to "make-or-break" a battle on the spire waves battles.

Exactly.

Also comparing it to the Brown Bear does not include the use of Instants needed to fully use the limited Brown Bear bonus time effectively.

Yes. Most players think that the brown bear is preferable to the bird, and for many players this will be true, but the BB burns through instants and supplies while the bird supplies troops for free.

My take right now is that wholesaling is most amazing with supporting spells and AWs. Wholesaling produces more goods for EACH of my non-boosted goods than 7 fully developed boosted goods manufacturies even with supporting spells and AWs.

Although this is off topic, I am intrigued by this strategy; this is the second time I heard of it. Please tell the particulars: at what AW levels does this strategy take off?

 

[Count Rupert]

Yes. Most players think that the brown bear is preferable to the bird, and for many players this will be true, but the BB burns through instants and supplies while the bird supplies troops for free.



Although this is off topic, I am intrigued by this strategy; this is the second time I heard of it. Please tell the particulars: at what AW levels does this strategy take off?

It's not supplying troops quite for free. There is that little matter of the pet food it needs to do that.

 

[Moho]

I find the Twilight Phoenix fun to use. I've already done it in three different Spires. It might have saved the battle twice or thrice. The main problem is that pet food comes in limited supply.

 

[Gkyr]

It's not supplying troops quite for free. There is that little matter of the pet food it needs to do that.

Both the brown bear and the bird require the same pet food to operate both for the same period of 12 hours. That evens out the food factor when comparing the two evolving buildings. The net comparison, therefore, is what happens during that 12 hour period.

 

[AnselSkye]

Although this is off topic, I am intrigued by this strategy; this is the second time I heard of it. Please tell the particulars: at what AW levels does this strategy take off?

Same. This might convince me to finally build that BTG I've been putting off. I just need to hear what supporting spells we're talking about.

 

[MichaelMichael]

My personal experience goes as follows: On the spire, with appropriate buildings, I don't lose fights all the way up to top. Perhaps 1 in 20 fights might be a loss (usually due to an error on my part). I fight with a fire Phoenix, appropriate troops and supporting combat buildings. In the rare fights I lose, I switch to catering and move on.

The Tourney is an entire different matter. Some battles do not have very optimal troops, and the high level late fights cannot be won even with the right troops (if the ideal are weaker ones). Light Melee and Heavy Range units seem to wilt after 4 rounds after level 25. They never win for me. I cater these and I do not believe 5% will make these losses wins. I generally keep track of the Diamonds it would take to recover troops (as my measure of losses, I do not use diamonds to recover troops). So provinces 1-8 tend to be <20 diamonds, 9-16 are 50ish diamonds, 17-24 start at 100, but in spots (best troops are matched well) can be 20 or less. But the worst match ups can be losses. The terrain clearly matters but I mostly autofight. Terrain can really make a difference making range strikes powerful or vulnerable depending on placement of barricades. So looking just at the troops, this can be difference between a walkover (no losses with all Priests) and a win with a 50 diamond loss. In more difficult fights, terrain might produce a full loss (perhaps 2000 diamonds in troops) vs a win (with 800 diamonds in losses).

With experience, I can guess which are likely losses. The current strategy at the higher levels is to give up on using weak troops. Cater whenever the goods are plentiful. Fight the ideal matches. Then there are the few where the match is a decent chance at winning with likely large losses and the cater is less than ideal. Judgement prevails but fights can because less attractive after province 30 or so, as most fights are expected to be losses. So a few more troops probably doesn't add up for me, I don't even use the Brown Bear about half the weeks as I can go to 35 mostly with catering at the top. Fighting just doesn't extend the Tourney for me. If I need goods, I can burn a 100% Supply or Coin instant and add a lot more goods for a tough week. Most weeks I do exactly that as Crafting and the spire add those instants every week.

So bottom line - recovery will make no difference in the spire (for me) as I win without it so the gain will be the troops. The troop loss in Diamonds is probably about 8,000 in the top level. So about 400 would be recovered at 5% which is the equivalent of roughly 20 hours in time instants (or 13 with a brown bear). In the Tourney, losses are huge, as every troop I build generally dies there (perhaps 20-30k diamond equivalent for each of the 6 rounds) - but frankly, in the past few tourneys, I have not be using my Brown Bear much, regular production is enough to do 35 because of catering. So where does that leave me. I don't think more troops will get me much. No because I won't use them, they just won't win above 35 outside of my very best troops that are ideally boosted. Say Priest + 3 Magnificent Mage Multipliers + Dwarven Armor vs Heavy Melee units. But if the battle comes up 2 or 3 Light Range Units, fight will lose no matter what I put up to fight because the building won't fit the fight and the troops are too weak at that level. So I'd see an incremental increase in troops available to die, but the bird would get me anything I don't have other than perhaps troops to fight more fights. So 25kx6= 150k diamonds in losses (if all the fights happened in one 12 hour interval) = 8k in recover is the equivalent of 400 hrs in time instants or 270 hrs with a brown bear. I'd be able to fight 5% more fights so that amounts to 1 more tourney provence done all 6 times. From my perspective that benefit is not very much. If your strategy, allows you to win with only troops for the last few provinces in your tourney efforts, then the bird makes sense, but not for me. BTW, I do not generally use brown bear except when there is a push. The Fire Phoenix is used a lot.

My biggest use of large time instants is for Spells, specifically Power of Provision so that I can keep my Culture bonus over 700% and buy a lot of Goods in the wholesaler. The biggest use of 5 hr (and smaller) time instants is for crafting. Everyone has their own strategies but goods work for me and the effort and planning to use the Bird seem to be a lot of work without much return beyond the advantage of condensing the playing time for the Tourney.

 

[Gkyr]

@MichaelMichael can you just tell us your wholesaler strategy?

 

[Iyapo1]

specifically Power of Provision so that I can keep my Culture bonus over 700%

Typo?

 

[MichaelMichael]

Typo?

No that is not a typo. I have a 700% culture bonus and it will be 750 plus soon. Love the LightHouse of Good Neighbors. It grants up to 12% culture bonus for each culture building with Ensorcelled Endowment & Neighborly help and extends my Ensorcelled Endowment to 4 days long. I keep more than 50 buildings with Ensorcelled Endowment. So 11% (currently) x 50 is an extra 550% + 150% (or 160) is >700%. To do so, I have my BTG (wholesaler 470% & growing), GBS (24 hr neighborly help) and PT (300% Power of Provision) also pretty much maxed out. My Ensorcelled Endowment lasts 4 days, so I need to produce 50 Ensorcelled Endowment every 4 days, Production takes 4 hours so I produce 24 in 4 days, I also collect 35 in the Tourney each week (call it 20 in 4 days). That leaves me short about 6 (more like 8) so I use time instants (24-32 hours every 4 day cycle) for that. I visit about 300 neighbors a day so enough reciprocate to keep the 50+ more with help all the time. At the present moment, I actually have a 743% bonus (160% + 53x11%, so I have Ensorcelled Endowment applied to at least 53 Culture buildings right now).

Okay, so what does that get me. At change of day with full Coins and Supplies. I can buy all six items in the wholesaler using 60% of inventory of either coins or supplies. One purchase produces 150k on tier 1, 98k on tier 2, and 66k on tier 3. I have 5 workshops (2 magic, all boosted with permanent Power of Provision, from the tourney). In nine hours they produce about 24million supplies (vs a capacity of 16 million) On most days I wholesale 6 to 8 cycles of goods (mostly using supplies) - often using a few supply or coin instants . My 9 hr production of boosted goods are 17-20k per manufactory. So figure 6 buildings for each good means I produce about 300k in manufactories per day vs 900k of each unboosted tier 1, 600k of each unboosted tier 2 and 400k of each unboosted tier 3.

The end impact is I need to trade a lot for my Tier 1 Boosted Goods and I try not to use my boosted goods (Tier 1 & tier 2) in the tourney. I also have some spells from the tourney to use for my tier 1 goods and an extra manufactory so 300k there is more like 600k per day (for boosted tier 1) but far short of the 900k (for Unboosted tier 1) so I trade for my boosted goods. Goods are better than troops in my opinion but that has been my focus for a long time. Having a lot of coin and supply instants means that most goods show up on demand. I am only a barely a top 100 player on my world. I imagine players above me are doing far more production given the time to update all their AWs far more than me. But I also expect many are losing out, I actually had to put some 2x2 culture building out just to provide more targets for Neighborly help. Most top players do not have near my 50+ culture buildings so perhaps I have lucked on to an unusual strategy.

The thing that drives the strategy is multiplicative effects. 700% culture bonus x 300% Power of provision is a lot of supplies. Then adding in 470% off the wholesaler and that is about 100x what nominal workshops would produce in a nominal wholesaler. Nothing with troops comes near to that. Of course, nominally no one would use the wholesaler at all.