Twilight phoenix - the first poison pill in Elvenar...

[MichaelMichael]

The 11% is added for each item and is not cumulative over all the items, so your real number is the 150% or 160% + the 11%. Not 700%

Your math is interesting but I click on my culture bonus and it says right now. I show no bonus is 100%, the next tiers are 642%, 667%, 677% and finally 687%,. It lists the spell effect as 517%. So semantically, you can say I have 160% culture bonus but that number is never listed. The highlighted number is 677% so that is what the Elevenar shows as my culture bonus. If you want to call that 160%+517%, it is but it is not what it the game says. It highlights 677% but never lists 160% anywhere. (Screen shot attached)

The 11% is per affected culture building. You can think it otherwise, but I am getting the supplies and reading what elvenar states as my culture bonus so I know. Perhaps adding the picture will end this debate on the facts.

 

[MichaelMichael]

3 sparkles. 170% to 185%, making sure that for the purpose of the experiment, it is done only to buildings that currently have the Helping Hands buff, and having checked the boost between each application. Were I to do this to a total of 50 buildings, ALL of which had been helped? That'd be 170% + (5% * 50) = 420%.

To be clear, what that culture is boosting is coins from taxes and supplies from workshops. The example below is the workshop. Let's say you have that 185% boost. You chop off the first 100% because that's your base value, leaving 85% to be the additional goods that you get. A bit of checking reveals this:
View attachment 12565

My PoP effect weighs in at 262.5%, so it seems that the enchantment bonus is stacking such that regular production plus culture bonus is being calculated first before getting additional enchantments added on. (3100+2635) * 2.625 = 15054.375. That checks out

Also, the end effect of the relevant Ancient Wonder is a lot less powerful than it suggests, a bit like Prosperity Tower's effect on Power of Provision. It's not adding the percentage to what's there; it's replacing the base value with the displayed value. That first fun level of Lighthouse? That's not 5+6. It's just overwriting 5 with the new 6.

So the math works out to 170 + (6 * 50) = 470%

... and I'm out of time to keep working on this post. Proofread later. TODO: Give boost example frS

Only sparkle building that have Neighborly help. Those without help do not grant the bonus culture. I visit 300 neighbors every day. I have 50+ buildings that can be helped and are sparkled. Most of them usually are helped by my many neighbors. It pays off if you do a lot of visits every day. It also helps that (for me) that neighborly help last 24 hours. BTW, the enchantment bonus is from Power of Provision and it multiplies.

 

[MichaelMichael]

Okay - two more screen shots. At this point I have taken 2 cycles of Supplies for the wholsaler and 1 cycle of Coins for the Wholesaler
It is evening so I am doing a 3 hr production cycle for my workshop.

I really find it difficult to believe some people would not believe my posting without screen shots.

 

[MichaelMichael]

Each EE placed on a polished culture building adds 5% to that normal max of 170%. If you have 50 buildings polished and with an EE, that is another 500% added to the 170%, or a 670% bonus to coins and supplies collected. Add in the bonus from the AW and it gets ridiculous.

I agree it is ridiculous, but it the game design - a feature, not a bug. The advent of shard mania, allowed me to upgrade the AWs that made a difference. These 4 taken to their ultimate capability are ridiculous, but I don't write the code or decide how the game works. I just play the game to optimize the code as written. The code does exactly what it says it will, Note to game designers, allowing 3 items that multiply quickly gets to near exponential results. As it turns out I am just about done with those three Ancient Wonders so it might go to 150x but won't go much higher. Although I think I could add another 5-10 Culture building for another 60 to 120 culture bonus, but I probably have as much Goods as want to spend time using. The flip side is putting enough buildings down for Orcs, Manna, Seeds and Uranium. I actually think I found that balance. I have found a way to overcome Sentient Goods limits generally so the pacing items in this chapter 19 and likely the next is Ascendent goods and chapter goods. Enno put pretty hard limits on producing both of those items.

 

[Killy-]

I'd be able to fight 5% more fights so that amounts to 1 more tourney provence done all 6 times. From my perspective that benefit is not very much.

It is more than 5% more troops (5% would be the minimum if you would barely win every fight). A player on the beta forum made the effort to collect his numbers and got 15% bonus troops in 45 provinces. I would guess somewhat the same for my first tournament with the new bird. I estimate my new average will be 55 provinces instead of 50, but it is kinda hard to tell after 1 tournament.

 

[Zoof]

3 sparkles. 170% to 185%, making sure that for the purpose of the experiment, it is done only to buildings that currently have the Helping Hands buff, and having checked the boost between each application. Were I to do this to a total of 50 buildings, ALL of which had been helped? That'd be 170% + (5% * 50) = 420%.
[...]
My PoP effect weighs in at 262.5%, so it seems that the enchantment bonus is stacking such that regular production plus culture bonus is being calculated first before getting additional enchantments added on. (3100+2635) * 2.625 = 15054.375. That checks out
[...]

Only sparkle building that have Neighborly help. Those without help do not grant the bonus culture. I visit 300 neighbors every day. I have 50+ buildings that can be helped and are sparkled. Most of them usually are helped by my many neighbors. It pays off if you do a lot of visits every day. It also helps that (for me) that neighborly help last 24 hours. BTW, the enchantment bonus is from Power of Provision and it multiplies.

Additional emphasis added

It seems like we're talking about the same thing. And yes, I do the neighborly help thing every day to everything I can get my grubby paws on. It's most unfortunate that I've already started leaning my main city towards a fighting style and I'd rather not undo what I'd already put in. My experimental cater-only city, OTOH, is something I might try this on. If I get far enough with it, that is.

EDIT: If your PC is running Windows 10 or higher, using the snip tool (Ctrl+Shift+S) might be an easier way to do it get screenshots
EDIT2: I'd added more to my prior post as per the TODO note when running the numbers and I did in fact arrive at 11% in the end. I had to reread your wall of text to find that, yeah, you were talking about a(n almost) fully leveled lighthouse.
EDIT3: The experiment I ran was for just three EE because I'm in chapter 8 and I really wanted to save all those EE for when I reach the chapter where I get the AW that gives me mana every time I throw down an enchantment. 507 EE stockpiled and counting ; I figured that three data points would be sufficient to establish a pattern

 

[StarLoad]

@MichaelMichael your starting Culture is 150 or 160% and when you get it to 677% and do the math you are only getting 577% of bonus, but fine it's close enough to 700 to say you are right, but that must be an extreme example. Pardon me for not believing you without proof but claims like this have been put out there without proof and unfortunately, your credibility with me is low.

Now can we get back on topic?
Ed

 

[Deleted User - 849411552]

I agree it is ridiculous, but it the game design - a feature, not a bug. The advent of shard mania, allowed me to upgrade the AWs that made a difference. These 4 taken to their ultimate capability are ridiculous, but I don't write the code or decide how the game works. I just play the game to optimize the code as written. The code does exactly what it says it will, Note to game designers, allowing 3 items that multiply quickly gets to near exponential results. As it turns out I am just about done with those three Ancient Wonders so it might go to 150x but won't go much higher. Although I think I could add another 5-10 Culture building for another 60 to 120 culture bonus, but I probably have as much Goods as want to spend time using. The flip side is putting enough buildings down for Orcs, Manna, Seeds and Uranium. I actually think I found that balance. I have found a way to overcome Sentient Goods limits generally so the pacing items in this chapter 19 and likely the next is Ascendent goods and chapter goods. Enno put pretty hard limits on producing both of those items.

This is fascinating! I'm fairly new to the game and will not see the Lighthouse of Good Neighborhood to the end of the next chapter (Chapter 13).

Is my assumption correct that the "buy wholesale" strategy depends these four Wonders?

Great Bell Spire / Crystal Lighthouse - extends the duration of Neighborly Help cultural polish
Prosperity Towers - increases the power and duration of Power of Provision enchantments
Blooming Trader Guild - increases the amount of goods received from wholesale offers
Lighthouse of Good Neighborhood - increases the power and duration of Ensorcelled Endowment enchantments

So with this strategy, the Culture Bonus greatly boosts the Power of Provision effect on workshops, so that the player gains such a huge amount of supplies that it is practical to buy most or all non-boosted goods from the wholesaler - is that correct?

I had not realized that Culture Bonus could exceed 170%.

 

[MichaelMichael]

@MichaelMichael your credibility with me is low.

Hopefully, I have somewhat greater credibility with you going forward. As for the Culture Bonus, that is the number that Elvenar defines. I agree that the increase is a different number but Elvenar opens up a popup called "Culture Bonus" and reports the gain + the initial 100% under the category of Culture Bonus. The more correct term might be Culture Multiplier but I try to stick with the game's definitions. BTW my typical number is over 700% as reported by the game. It is 710% now and was 743% (as reported) earlier in the day.

 

[MichaelMichael]

This is fascinating! I'm fairly new to the game and will not see the Lighthouse of Good Neighborhood to the end of the next chapter (Chapter 13).

Is my assumption correct that the "buy wholesale" strategy depends these four Wonders?

Great Bell Spire / Crystal Lighthouse - extends the duration of Neighborly Help cultural polish
Prosperity Towers - increases the power and duration of Power of Provision enchantments
Blooming Trader Guild - increases the amount of goods received from wholesale offers
Lighthouse of Good Neighborhood - increases the power and duration of Ensorcelled Endowment enchantments

So with this strategy, the Culture Bonus greatly boosts the Power of Provision effect on workshops, so that the player gains such a huge amount of supplies that it is practical to buy most or all non-boosted goods from the wholesaler - is that correct?

I had not realized that Culture Bonus could exceed 170%.

Correct those are the four AWs, but the LGN is clearly the most important. I'd add that having enough Ensorcelled Endowment spells, culture buildings, and neighbors visiting are all significant challenges. This is a late game strategy. My levels on those building are mostly 30+. My exception is the Blooming Trader Guild at level 27.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

@MichaelMichael your starting Culture is 150 or 160% and when you get it to 677% and do the math you are only getting 577% of bonus

That is because in almost every instance in the game where it is giving a percentage, that first 100% is your base and not part of the actual bonus.

 

[MichaelMichael]

It is more than 5% more troops (5% would be the minimum if you would barely win every fight). A player on the beta forum made the effort to collect his numbers and got 15% bonus troops in 45 provinces. I would guess somewhat the same for my first tournament with the new bird. I estimate my new average will be 55 provinces instead of 50, but it is kinda hard to tell after 1 tournament.

I estimated it as 5% of my losses and I lose virtually all of my troops every week. There is a minor multiplicative effect. So if I start with 1,000,000 troops for this week's battles and lose them alll, I get 50,000 back. Wnen I lose those 50,000 I get back 2,500. The 2,500 get back 125. the 125 get back 6 and the 6 get back nothing. All tolled, that works out toe 5,381 or 5.38% of all the troops that die.

It may be a denominator problem. I only consider lost troops with the assumption that every troop is eventually lost and the 5% only applies to lost troops rather than troops that fought. That is why I think the real gain is 5% of the troops you could possibly engage. Meanwhile that 1,000,000 produced could be 1,500,000 with a lot of time instants and one or more pet food used on a brown bear.

As I never was able to get all of my losses fully back with a spell, I am sure the effect is only on lost troops

 

[MichaelMichael]

EDIT: If your PC is running Windows 10 or higher, using the snip tool (Ctrl+Shift+S) might be an easier way to do it get screenshots
EDIT2: I'd added more to my prior post as per the TODO note when running the numbers and I did in fact arrive at 11% in the end. I had to reread your wall of text to find that, yeah, you were talking about a(n almost) fully leveled lighthouse.

EDIT 1 - thank you
EDIT 2 - sorry about the "wall of text" but the strategy is a bit complex. Earlier posts established that I was completing chapter 19 in the next couple weeks - clearly this is a late game strategy. But the underlying topic identified the "Bird" as only applicable in post chapter 13

 

[Killy-]

I estimated it as 5% of my losses and I lose virtually all of my troops every week. There is a minor multiplicative effect. So if I start with 1,000,000 troops for this week's battles and lose them alll, I get 50,000 back. Wnen I lose those 50,000 I get back 2,500. The 2,500 get back 125. the 125 get back 6 and the 6 get back nothing. All tolled, that works out toe 5,381 or 5.38% of all the troops that die.

Yep, that is not how it works, because you don't lose all your troops in one go. Instead some troops you gonna lose and refunded over and over over many fights. Maybe it is more clear with some examples. If you would lose 10% of your troops in every battle (evenly distributed over the 5 tropps yada yada (I am lazy today)) and you get 5% back, than that would mean you cut your losses in half. With half the losses you can fight twice as much - you get 100% extra-troops from the bird. Or if you would always lose less then 5% and you are getting all your troops back, than you would have an "infinite" amount of troops (same if you would have 20 birds). Well not every fight is the same and we have to collect data or make an educated guess (somewhat between 15% and 20% more troops in my case).

 

[Darielle]

The downside of the bird rests on its measly 12-hour duration.

And to think they started it with only a 3 and a half hour duration, and changed it to 12. I have to shake my head at Inno's reasoning sometimes.

 

[Henroo]

@MichaelMichael Your LGN/wholesaling strategy is fascinating! A couple of questions: 1 if you have an event quest which wants you to produce a large amount of goods, does wholesaling count? 2. Does wholesaling count towards Golden Bracelet badges during fellowship adventures?

 

[MaidenFair]

I estimated it as 5% of my losses and I lose virtually all of my troops every week. There is a minor multiplicative effect. So if I start with 1,000,000 troops for this week's battles and lose them alll, I get 50,000 back. Wnen I lose those 50,000 I get back 2,500. The 2,500 get back 125. the 125 get back 6 and the 6 get back nothing. All tolled, that works out toe 5,381 or 5.38% of all the troops that die.
....the 5% only applies to lost troops rather than troops that fought.

Edit: Sorry for the confusion; Enevhar and Rp44 clarified for me downthread. Unless I'm not understanding you here, that's not how the Twilight Phoenix works, though. It gives back 5% of each squad you took into battle, so in your example, if you took those 1,000,000 into a multi-wave fight, then when you send those 50,000 back to the second wave, you won't get back 2,500 the second time, you'll get all 50,000 back because it's still calculating based on the original squad size of the fight, not how many troops you have left. It's not based on the percentage of troops lost but the percentage of troops sent into battle. That makes a huge difference.

ETA: Thanks for sharing your wholesaler strategy! As Henroo said, that's fascinating. I'll have to keep it in mind as I move forward in chapters.

 

[MaidenFair]

Therefore, this building is a liability or just plain useless for a newby to employ. It is the first and only building that I am aware of that should be acquired but remain in inventory until the completion of chapter 14.

As a caterer, I can't argue for the Phoenix on fighting grounds, since I haven't experienced that. However, the broad statement that it shouldn't be deployed before chapter 14 seems a little strong. It also provides goods, population, and culture, all of which may make it attractive and efficient for a lower-level player. Just because it has a feeding effect, doesn't mean that's the only reason to place it. I have placed pets myself in my city with no intention of feeding them because they were useful to me in some other way. Case in point, I got 5 Moon Bear artefacts in their recent Spire stay. I'm getting close to entering Woodelves and that Moon Bear, even at only level 6 (and never being fed!), will be the best mana producer in my city by far.

That being said, I think feeding the Phoenix even occasionally will still be useful to a lower-level player. So they can't keep it fed 24/7, even a 5% return on a few tourney or Spire rounds a week can potentially save an early city from days of retraining. It's so easy for high-level players to replace troops when they have a Brown Bear and hundreds of time instants to burn, that I think it's easy to forget earlier cities don't have those advantages, and replacing the troops lost in just one disastrous battle can take days. Even an occasional boost from the Twilight will ease that a little bit. Will it be more useful to high-powered players? Of course. But the same can be said for anything in the game. If someone checks in more often, has a higher level of a wonder or building, or, like @MichaelMichael, is stacking wonder and spell effects, even a basic manufactory or residence will be more useful to them. I just don't think that means it's not useful at all to an earlier player.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Unless I'm not understanding you here, that's not how the Twilight Phoenix works, though. It gives back 5% of each squad you took into battle, so in your example, if you took those 1,000,000 into a multi-wave fight, then when you send those 50,000 back to the second wave, you won't get back 2,500 the second time, you'll get all 50,000 back because it's still calculating based on the original squad size of the fight, not how many troops you have left. It's not based on the percentage of troops lost but the percentage of troops sent into battle. That makes a huge difference.

No, that is not how multi-wave fights work. If you go into a 2-stage fight with a squad of 10,000 troops and half die in the first wave, for the second wave the squad now has a max size of only 5000 troops. So the 5% from the Phoenix will revive 500 in the first wave and 250 in the second wave. So if your 1 million all die in wave 1, you get back that 50,000 and that becomes the new squad size for wave 2, and then you get back 5% of that 50,000, not the 1 million.

 

[Rp44]

I fed my Twilight Phoenix in one city yesterday when I did the spire to see how I "felt" about seeing it work, separate from the concrete math. (I know it's not truly possible to separate them, but . . .)

I do think it will be attractive to any range of player. Remember that some casual players only complete one or two tournament rounds and very little in the Spire. Like MaidenFair mentioned, they might not have very many troops or time boosts or extra supplies and a pet food for the Twilight Phoenix might be worth it to them. Is it technically worth it? Probably not. But that doesn't matter for many, many people that play this game.

While it revives 5% of a full squad rather than 5% of troops lost, in multi-wave fights it looks like it uses the squad size you start that particular fight with to calculate the 5%. In a three wave fight I started the third wave with one squad at 158 (full initial squad was somewhere in the 2000 range). That squad was wiped out in the fight and I had 8 troops revived. That's the only specific example I remember because I was actively trying to not math things, but I couldn't help noticing that one.

I certainly won't use it that often, but I do have a mid-level TW and a fully evolved polar bear in four cities, so I might use it occasionally for the latter half of the more costly tournies and do the Spire in that same time frame. Mostly I'll be happy to have it for the cities that occasionally go all out in the FA and I go deep in the tournament those two weeks.